Invisible waterfall

A container of water and a pump weigh 100 kg at rest. Then, the pump is switched on and sucks the water to 1 m \SI{1}{\meter} high, releasing it back into the container. This flow is steady with no spills.

What does the scale read while the water is running?

less than 100 kg 100 kg more than 100 kg

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13 solutions

Laszlo Mihaly
May 3, 2018

The free-falling water will not contribute to the weight. However, when the water arrives back to the container it will exert a downward force, that happens to be equal to the weight of the free falling water column. As a result, the weight is the same as before.

Details: Assuming the rate of flow (mass per unit time) is f f , the force of the impacting water is F = f v F=fv , where v = 2 g h v=\sqrt{2gh} is the velocity at the impact. The mass of the free-falling water is m = f t m=f t , where t = 2 h / g t=\sqrt{2h/g} is the time-of-flight of a given droplet of water. The weight of the free-falling water is F = m g = g f 2 h / g = f 2 g h F'=mg=gf\sqrt{2h/g}=f\sqrt{2gh} . It is clear that F = F F'=F . When the water is in steady flow the balance will show the same weight as it shows when there is no flow.

Yeah, in this problem, it's very obvious that the center of mass will be stationary in steady-state. This is due to the circularity. In the other one, there is no circulation, so it wasn't as obvious to me that the COM wasn't accelerating.

Steven Chase - 3 years, 1 month ago

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You are right. In the other one the center of mass is slowly moving downward.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 1 month ago

Is it not that the water that is in the way up the tube will not give any force thus weight will be less??

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The water this going up in the tube will act with its full weight. That is why the pump has to push it up. Otherwise, if the water in the tube is weightless, the pump does not have to work.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

Honestly, I thought that since the water is flowing, shouldn't there be more force being applied, thus more weight.

Kaustubh Khulbe - 3 years ago

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Indeed, there are internal forces in the system, and accounting for all of them can be complicated. Another way of looking at this problem, proposed by Steven Chase, Arjen Vreugdenhil and others in this discussion line, is to look at the motion of the center of mass of the system. Since the center of mass is steady, there is no change in the weight. That is a very general argument, independent of the internal forces in the system.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

However there will be a pressure loss in the piping even a steady flow, so the pump will need to generate a pressure difference to overcome these losses (and the static head). This pressure difference will generate a force acting on the pump and so, through the structure, on the scale. It will push the scale down somewhat harder, so the scale should read slightly «more than 100 kg».

Gediminas Sadzius - 3 years ago

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Indeed, there are friction forces exerted by the pipe acting on the water. These forces cause the losses. However, according to Newtons's third low there is an equal and opposite force acting on the pipe, due to the water. These two (internal) forces cancel each other.

Another way of looking at this problem, proposed by Steven Chase, Arjen Vreugdenhil and others in this discussion line, is to look at the motion of the center of mass of the system. That is a very general argument, independent of the internal forces in the system.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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Please if you don't mind, could you write some words explaining how the system boundaries are chosen? I'm still struggling to understand why I do not need to support this pump when it pushes the fluid forward steadily (I can start the pump very slowly). Could the fluid be regarded as one system, and the pipe/pump/scale another system, where the friction "couples" the two systems? I'm an engineer, working almost daily with pumps, so this question is purely out of professional interest. Though it's not a type of a system one encounters everyday :-)

Gediminas Sadzius - 3 years ago

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@Gediminas Sadzius Imagine that you put everything in a big box. "Everything" includes the water, the pipes, the collection basin, the pump, and a battery to run the pump. You also put in a timer, and set it so that the water starts to flow in 10 minutes. You close the box, put it on a scale and wait.

When the pump starts there will be oscillations in the weight (smaller ones, if you start the pump slowly). The problem is about the "steady flow". In that case the system will weight exactly the same as the system without water flow.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

Yes but technically it will be less than 100g because for the time the water was initially falling and didn't hit the bottom, the scale was less.

Eric Anderson - 3 years ago

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That is true. See my other problem, https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2018-05-21/intermediate/?p=2 It deals with the same issue, except when the flow stops. Please note that the problem explicitly states that we are looking at the time when "the flow is steady".

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

The answer to this problem contradicts your sand-timer problem in today's intermediate set. Does the impact of the falling fluid negate the missing mass or does it create a greater normal force? Both cannot be true.

Ian Andrzejczak - 3 years ago

But adding energy to a system (making the water move) increases the mass since E = mc^2

Andrew Wetzel - 3 years ago

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First, it is easy to set up the waterfall so that the energy is already stored in a battery that is part of the system. Second, the corresponding weight change would be incredibly small, in the order of 1 0 11 10^{-11} kg.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

answers are newtonian however einstein-> energy has mass so by release potential energy your answer is incorrect.

Donald Klein - 3 years ago

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Please see the responses to similar comments in the discussion chain.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

Objects in the center of earth have more weight. The water is in a higher place. So, the weight is less. Is something wrong?

tristan krause - 3 years ago

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This is a very small effect.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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Small difference but it is not zero. if the water was elevated beyond the jupiter ... The precision of the weight measurement is not specified.

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@Juan Manuel Cruz Morales The problem specifies that the water is elevated by 1m.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

One thing I didn't understand is the value of "t" as I have got :- t=h/√2gh

(I could also be wrong.)

Manav Nirgund - 3 years ago

Did anyone consider that the pump is consuming energy to run? If all of the pumps' parts are self-contained, then it has some sort of battery which will release heat energy as it runs the pump. Regardless of the equalizing forces of the water rising and falling, heat energy released from running the pump will VERY SLIGHTLY(m=e/c^2) will lower the mass of the running pump over time and will technically be less than the 100kg container/water/pump set up at rest.

Matthew Lim - 3 years ago

The water in the tube is away from the center of the scale and because of the way normal scales work the scale will show less than 100 even thought there is same amount of material on top of the scale. You can repeate this by raising your right hand so it is paralle with the floor when weighing yourself.

Barış Şenkal - 3 years ago

Basically gravity changes when height is changed and the machine measures weight, not mass. So shouldn't the reading change.

Debasrito Lahiri - 3 years ago

Given the friction from the air on the downward pouring water and the slight amount of evaporation, should it not weigh less?

Scott Davies - 3 years ago

I answered more than 100 bc of the force going down, why does the force get cancelled out by the weight of the free falling water?

e r - 3 years ago

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because the free falling water is not in contact with the rest of the system and therefore its weight does not count.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

Why the velocity at the impact is sqrt(2gh)? Thanks

Felipe Tanco - 3 years ago

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If an object moves with constant acceleration g g , starting with zero velocity, the final velocity after traveling a distance h h is 2 g h \sqrt{2gh} .

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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Thanks! Still don't get why the water it would start with zero velocity when opening the tap

Felipe Tanco - 3 years ago

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@Felipe Tanco You are right. I assumed that the cross section of the pipe is large and the starting velocity is zero. One needs to do a more complicated accounting of the forces if the starting velocity is non-zero.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

if we do not assume that g is constant with height (and it certainly is not), the elevated water weighs less per unit of mass than the water in the container. Therefore the most accurate answer is "less than 100 kg".

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No. The question was "What does the scale read while the water is running?". The effect you are talking about is so small that it can be measured only by the most sophisticated precision measurement. For any regular scale the reading will be the same.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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His explanation is perfect, according to his approximation (very correct) of "g" as constant. Mine is also correct if you assume measurable the smallest variation of that value by raising the water 1 meter. They are two different and equally valid scenarios.

Shouldn't we also account for the work that the pump does in lifting the water to a height of 1m? This would be an additional F' term added to the weight of the system, since when the pump lifts the water against gravity the pump is pushed down into the scale by the water that is being lifted.

Andrew Keeler - 3 years ago

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Consider the water that is in the pipe and not moving yet. Its weight if F'. If the pump is on, and the water is flowing, the total amount in the pipe does not change (some leaves at the top, and the same amount enters at the bottom). Interestingly, the weight of this water is also F', because the amount did not change. The pump is doing work, because it moves the water against its own weight, but the weight is the same.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

I assumed 100 kg, but to be stricktly correct we should say less than 100 kg because of the energy lost by the falling water (friction).

A Former Brilliant Member - 2 years, 12 months ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
May 19, 2018

The center of mass of the system remains at rest, and is therefore not accelerating. Thus F net = 0 F_{\text{net}} = 0 .

Apart from gravity and the support of the scale, there are no external forces. Internal forces cancel by Newton's Third Law. (There is no need to figure out what all happens to the water inside the system!) Thus F scale = ( ) F g = m g F_{\text{scale}} = (-)F_g = mg .

In other words, the scale will read what it would ordinarily read.

Moderator note:

Note this problem essentially is 1 out of a series of 3, spanning through all the levels:

Science problem from Basic

Science problem from Intermediate

Science problem from Advanced

Yes, you are right. It is easier to get the answer with the center of mass argument.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

Why we are not considering the Impulse due to the flow of water from 1m high? It does give an Impulse on the weighing Pan which increase the reaction due to the Pan

Ariijit Dey - 3 years ago

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  • The force of the container stopping the water causes a downward force on the scale.

  • The pump pushing the water upward also pushes down on the scale.

  • The friction of the water in the upward pipeline causes an upward force, decreasing the weight measurement.

  • The falling water is not supported by the scale, causing a decrease in the weight measurement.

  • These four effect cancel each other.

    Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years ago

    Here is why I thought it might be less, if ever so slightly less, the pump must use energy to move the water, I see no external cables so some of that energy will be lost resulting in a lose of mass. Apart from that I would agree.

    Non Of your business - 3 years ago

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    The energy will be converted by friction to heat, which means that the heat still remains in the system.

    Even if all this dissipated energy were lost through heat transfer, the corresponding mass Δ m = Δ E / c 2 \Delta m = \Delta E/c^2 would be too small to measure with a scale.

    Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years ago

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    I didn't exactly approach the problem this way, but I don't think that the previous poster's point is invalid, and I don't think that your response quite works.

    1. The system doesn't appear to be thermally isolated, so you can definitely assume that the heat will dissipate and not remain stuck in the system. (If nothing else, the apparatus has to be surrounded by air, which could conduct the heat away; if it were a vacuum, the experiment probably wouldn't work because the water would evaporate very quickly.)
    2. The problem doesn't say how long the pump has been running before you measure it -- nor how efficient it is or how it works. If you wait long enough, the change in mass would no longer be too small to measure. Then again, if you wait long enough, the water would probably evaporate even without any pumping, though I think it's fair to assume that "no spills" means you can ignore water loss from evaporation, too.
    3. If you assume that the pump is eg. burning gasoline from an internal tank and venting the resulting carbon dioxide, it is very easy to see that it would lose a measurable amount of mass over time.

    On the other hand, maybe the pump uses a lithium-air battery which absorbs atmospheric oxygen as it discharges, and therefore becomes heavier over time....

    David Bale - 3 years ago

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    @David Bale A scale that measures 100 kg typically does not sense differences in the order of milligrams...

    Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years ago

    @David Bale With E = m c 2 E=mc^2 you are talking about incredibly small changes of mass. If we pump up 10 liter of water to 10 meter height in each second, and we run the pump for 1 hour, the energy dissipated will cause a 4 × 1 0 11 4\times10^{-11} kg change in the mass. Relative to the other effects discussed here, the corresponding change in weight is negligible.

    Concerning the other suggestions, the corresponding changes in mass are also small, but they are also easy to eliminate entirely. For example, we can run the experiment so that the source of the energy is a regular battery that does not need air.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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    @Laszlo Mihaly Sure, you can easily make up assumptions that make the change in mass negligible. Or you can make different assumptions (use gasoline instead of a regular battery, run the pump for ten thousand years, have the pump move the water much at a much faster speed than you described, or even just a very accurate scale) where the change in mass is definitely not negligible. The point is that the problem doesn't specify one way or the other.

    David Bale - 3 years ago

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    @David Bale Show me a physics problem that is not deficient by your standards.

    The point is that in real life situations there are all kind of things happening at the same time. Some are relevant to the outcome, others are irrelevant. When we draft a problem, we typically do not waste time to explicitly exclude the irrelevant factors.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

    I'm probably missing something obvious here, but it seems to me that the counterclockwise movement of the water imparts an angular acceleration. It is not true that the system is at rest in the absence of external forces because there is angular acceleration around the center of mass. The scale must therefore counter both the force of gravity and the angular acceleration.

    The argument I made in my head is as follows:

    1. Imagine that the apparatus is suspended by a pin through the center of mass, about which it is free to rotate. If the pump is off, then the pin counters the force of gravity, so the apparatus is stationary even without the scale. Adding the scale does nothing, so the scale displays zero.

    2. Now turn on the pump and move the pin so that it is still through the center of mass. (The center of mass will have moved because the water now fills the pipes.)

    3. In the absence of the scale, the apparatus will try to rotate clockwise around the pin. (The pump pushes the water up, thus pushing itself and the frame of the apparatus that it's connected to, down. These internal forces cancel out overall, but their torques do not.)

    4. If we want to prevent the rotation, the scale would have to exert a force on the container, even though the pin is already counteracting the force of gravity. Because the container is the bottom-left corner of the apparatus, the scale would have to be exerting this force at an angle in the downwards-and-right direction. By Newton's third law, this is equivalent to the apparatus exerting a upwards (and left) force on the scale. Therefore, the scale would read some negative value even with the pin fully counteracting the force of gravity. (Presumably it doesn't measure the horizontal shear component of the force.)

    5. Now, if you remove the pin, the scale would be counteracting the force of gravity plus this rotational force. It would therefore read whatever it read before, plus 100 kg, for a total value that is less than 100 kg.

    David Bale - 3 years ago

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    In the steady state there is no angular acceleration. When the water flow starts or stops all kind of interesting effects happen, see my other problem https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2018-05-21/intermediate/?p=2. When the water flow starts or stops there is also an angular acceleration, but that does no have an effect on the weight.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

    I pictured the center of mass as being higher when the pump is on. The gravitational force is less the higher the water is. So, when the pump is on, the scale will read slightly less. Maybe 1 m is not enough to make a measurable difference in gravitational force, so we were supposed to neglect that factor? This is how I get some of these answers wrong, second-guessing myself over how specific to get.

    Michael Nicholas - 3 years ago

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    I thought exactly the same. Maybe some hint like:"Gravitational acceleration is considered constant in the whole area" is needed.

    KisoX . - 3 years ago

    Please, be realistic. Of course, if you consider the change of gravitational acceleration with height, you get a change in weight. But that is a very small effect, in the 1 0 6 10^{-6} range.

    In every physics problem we need to neglect lots of factors and focus on the ones that are dominating the response. Otherwise the world would be just too complicated.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

    E=mc^2 turning on the pump adds energy into the system. Eb<Ea where a,b are time states before and after the pump is switched on.

    the act of pumping the water converts the electrical energy (assuming the pump is electrical) added to the system into kinetic energy thus increasing its MASS. Right?

    CITY FOXX - 3 years ago

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    David Bale made the same point in this discussion trail. With E = m c 2 E=mc^2 you are talking about incredibly small changes of mass. If we pump up 10 liter of water to 10 meter height in each second, and we run the pump for 1 hour, the energy dissipated will cause a 4 × 1 0 11 4\times10^{-11} kg change in the mass. Relative to the other effects discussed here, the corresponding change in weight is negligible.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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    ty laszlo i never believed for a second that the change would result in a measurable difference in mass that the scale would indicate. so if the question is what would the scale read the answer is the same. but if the question is is the mass < > or =. i think theoretically that is a different situation. i dont like the word negligible ☺. perhaps insignificant?

    CITY FOXX - 3 years ago

    Why on earth would you use the equation E = mc^2 for this ? Does not apply here because not getting energy from mass itself.

    Jesse Otis - 3 years ago

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    Strictly speaking, City Foxx is right, E = m c 2 E=mc^2 does apply to this problem, and everywhere else. In our case the effect is incredibly small.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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    @Laszlo Mihaly Yes, so incredibly small as to be tremendously overshadowed by the Newtonian verbiage. But, as you say, City Foxx has a point.

    Jesse Otis - 3 years ago

    City Foxx, I stand corrected in my comment about you using Einstein's mass-energy equation; as Laszio said, you are right. I apologize for any perceived disrespect to you.

    Jesse Otis - 3 years ago

    What about the air being accelerated downwards by the flowing water?

    Thomas Ponweiser - 3 years ago

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    A good one! Air friction would indeed result in a downdraft, which means the system is pushing down on the surrounding air and the surrounding air is pushing up on the system. This would leads to a very small decrease in the reading of the scale.

    I would also expect much of the downward air flow to be stopped when it reaches the water surface, which would result in an opposing effect, cancelling most of it. Ultimately, there might be a rotation of air in the same direction of the water, with almost no residual effect on the scale.

    Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years ago

    How do you know the centre of mass does't move? Even if the weight dropped to, say, 99kg, the system would remain at rest.because the support of the scale would change to 99kg to compensate. If the pump was slow enough so that the water left the top drop by drop, the change in momentum caused by the drop leaving would supply an upward force on the rest of the system and then a downward force as it entered the water at the bottom.

    Michael McLaughlin - 3 years ago

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    You are right about the water droplets. The weight would drop each time a drop of water leaves the upper pipe. When the droplet splashes into the water of the bottom container there will be a surge of weight. Interesting to note that the time average of these two effects are equal and opposite.

    They key to address your concern is this statement: "This flow is steady with no spills." Steady flow means lots of droplets so that the individual droplets cannot be distinguished.

    To answer the original question about the center of mass: We know that the center of mass is not moving because in the steady state the amount of water in the bottom container, the amount of water in the pump and the pipes, and the amount of water in the free-falling state are all constant (no spills!). The position of the center of mass is calculated from the distribution of water and other masses in the system, and all of those are independent of time. It does not matter that the water is moving as long as the motion is steady and the masses involved are not time dependent.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

    Then how do you explain the second intermediate problem?

    Elîte Keryakos - 3 years ago

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    The other problem about the hourglass deals with the short time when the flow stops. This one is about the steady flow.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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    Ohh rightt

    Elîte Keryakos - 3 years ago

    I say LESS (a tiny bit). What is wrong with the following reasoning: we'll consider all vertical external forces on the "system", where we choose the "system" to be everything except the balance, the air and the ground/world underneath. Then the contact force underneath and the weight remain the same indeed. But there is an extra tiny upward friction force between water jet and air. Hence the correct answer is LESS.

    PS: There is also a small downward force on the water surface because of the downward airflow, but this force should be less than the one that accelerated the air in the first place, because not all of it will hit the system again or come to rest.

    Manuel Ruiz - 3 years ago
    Michael Mendrin
    May 20, 2018

    Okay, finally, this has been put to rest. The answer is in fact 100 kg. Everything does balance out at the end.

    (Erroneous argument follows here)

    An hydraulics engineer is going to look at the bends in the pipe and see that there's going to be reactive forces in all of them. However, for a steady mass flow throughout, at each 90 degree bend there will be a reactive force that can be decomposed into equal forces in both the x and y right directions. Then all of the forces cancel out, except for the upward reactive force at the last bend. But this reactive force is based on some velocity of water leaving the nozzle, and when that water hits the tank again, it will be going at a higher velocity. Hence, there's going to be a net downward force. You could reverse everything and shoot a column of water right into the nozzle, and then drive a generator that maintains a steady flow through the pipes, with the same result. When liquid (or rocket gas) leaves a nozzle, the reaction force it generates is A p v 2 Apv^2 , where A A is the cross section area of the nozzle or pipe, p p is the mass density of the liquid (or gas), and v v is the velocity of the flow.

    So, the correct answer is, "more than 100 kg"

    Note: We are assuming that the pipe is completely filled with water everywhere, moving with a constant velocity.

    Counterarguments are invited. Jury's still out on this one.

    Not only the last bend counts.

    Laszlo Kocsis - 3 years ago

    Indeed, there are internal forces in the system, and accounting for all of them can be complicated. Another way of looking at this problem, proposed by Steven Chase, Arjen Vreugdenhil and others in this discussion line, is to look at the motion of the center of mass of the system. Since the center of mass is steady, there is no change in the weight. That is a very general argument, independent of the internal forces in the system.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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    I got burned with that explanation, "...since the center of mass is steady, there is no change in weight". Well, turns out that it's not so simple in a gravitational field or accelerating frame. What we can say is that in a steady state system, with unchanging center of mass, there won't be any changes in weight. That doesn't mean it weighs the same as when things were not moving.

    We can all have more argument about this claim, I'd love to hear them. I'd like a more careful explanation why is this necessarily so. Very fascinating subject, let's not give up on this.

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    @Michael Mendrin , @Blake Farrow and I were taken with your argument yesterday and agreed for a while. But late last night we went through a thought experiment (inspired by your suggestion) that showed us we were double counting some mass.

    I think there are two options for how the water comes to rest in the pool at the top:

    1. it hits a bent pipe that redirects it to horizontal motion. Since velocity has to be steady in the tube above the pump, this would reverse the change in momentum at the bottom when it entered the pump, so that the internal forces cancel.
    2. it arcs the water into the pool at the top and reenters the water. In that case, the force needed to arc the water is equal to the mass that's missing while it's in the air.

    It seems like in both cases, the system conspires to preserve "internal forces cancel". But maybe we're missing something?

    Josh Silverman Staff - 3 years ago

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    @Josh Silverman Let's first imagine a continuous loop of pipe, where instead of falling water, the pipe carries it into the tank and reconnects with itself. Assume it's a lossless systems so that a pump isn't necesssary. Water flows at a constant velocity everywhere. Then everything balances out and there is no net force. Now, if we were to remove a vertical section of the pipe, and could coax the water to continue moving at the same velocity at all vertical heights, then everything will continue to balance out and there is no net force. However, free falling water accelerates so that its velocity is higher at the bottom than it was at the top, while maintaining the same mass flow rate at both places. This will result in a net downward thrust force. If water flow was reversed so that the pump shoots water upwards into the nozzle, the same thing would be true and we'd sill have the same net downward thrust force. We don't have to consider the reactive forces in the rest of the piping because we know that in the continuous loop of pipe, everything balances out. We only need to look at the vertical forces in that vertical section where there is either free falling or shot upwards water.

    Weight is a force, and thrust is also a force, so any vertical thrust can affect total weight, so we have to pay attention to all thrust forces. Let's look again at the thrust formula:

    F = A p v 2 F=Apv^2

    where A A is the cross section area, p p is the mass density, and v v is the velocity. Now, if the mass flow rate is constant, then q = A p v q=Apv has to be constant, where q q is the mass flow rate. From this, we can conclude that the ratio of forces F n o z z l e F_{nozzle} and F s u r f a c e F_{surface} is the same as the ratio of velocities v n o z z l e v_{nozzle} and v s u r f a c e v_{surface} , so that the net thrust is

    F n e t = q ( v n o z z l e v s u r f a c e ) F_{net}=q(v_{nozzle}-v_{surface})

    F n e t = q ( 2 g h ) \Rightarrow F_{net}=q(\sqrt{2gh})

    where h h is the height of the drop, and g g is gravitational acceleration. This is the same height the pump needs to raise the water to.

    Hmmm... I think I see a problem with this? This critically depends on the physics of the falling water, in that we're assuming that the stream narrows ideally towards the bottom. It isn't always that way with higher nozzle speeds over a short drop, so this puts a limit on the relative values for A p i p e , v p i p e , h A_{pipe}, v_{pipe}, h

    Also, in Hourglass Redux , the net force is given as

    2 q 2 A p \dfrac{2q^2}{Ap}

    but that one involves an hourglass which center of gravity is moving downwards.

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    @Michael Mendrin

    This will result in a net downward thrust force.

    By this you mean a thrust from the falling water onto the bottom collecting pool? I think a diagram would ease the debate.

    Josh Silverman Staff - 3 years ago

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    @Josh Silverman I'll get some graphic together, but as the water leaves downwards from the nozzle at top, there's a reaction force of A p v n o z z l e 2 Apv_{nozzle}^2 upwards, and then when the water hits the surface, there's a reaction force of A p v s u r f a c e 2 Apv_{surface}^2 downwards. To see how the latter is derived, consider the opposite case where water is shot from a pipe bend upwards towards the nozzle at top. Then that would be the required thrust in order to result in velocity at the entrance of the nozzle at top to be v n o z z l e v_{nozzle} as before. The physics is the same either way, except for direction of water flow, the same net downward thrust.

    Otherwise, we'd really have anti-gravity!

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    @Michael Mendrin What is providing this thrust at the top, in particular what is providing downward thrust if the water is just spilling horizontally over an edge?

    Josh Silverman Staff - 3 years ago

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    @Josh Silverman I was careful to say at the start that it's assumed that the pipe is completely filled with water moving a constant speed. In that case, there will be a reactive force at the last bend, at a 45 degree angle. If a fireman brings up with him the hose to the 10th floor, is the water just spilling over from the nozzle? But we have to avoid the extremes and assume the ideal--not too much water flow and not too little either.

    Why is that when the water pressure is turned on in a fire hose, not only the nozzle can get wild, the curved sections of the hose can move around too? Hydraulic engineers working piping with high mass flow rates always have to be aware of such forces, which can be considerable. In hydroelectric dams, forces are sufficient to literally blow apart the turbines and giant piping. See Sayano-Shushenskaya Dam Disaster

    As a matter of fact, on a ship with sails, the sail is curved, so that the wind is deflected towards another angle, and it's the reactive force that propels the ship, approximately bisecting the angle between the two wind directions. When one is tacking a ship, i.e., going at an angle relative to prevailing wind direction, there's an optimum angle to set the sails for maximum forward thrust, which is not where the sails directly face the wind.

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    @Michael Mendrin I was reading it like you were talking about the water that's falling back down to the bottom pool, over the waterfall.

    In the case of the firehose, I agree that there's a reactive force at the last bend.

    Josh Silverman Staff - 3 years ago

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    @Josh Silverman The water is exiting the nozzle at velocity v n o z z l e v_{nozzle} , but that increases to v s u r f a c e = v n o z z l e + 2 g h v_{surface}=v_{nozzle} + \sqrt{2gh} when it hits the surface.

    Again, we need to have ideal water flow as it falls, otherwise other complications are introduced. One can experiment with the kitchen faucet that doesn't have an aerator to get the smooth flow, where the diameter shrinks as it goes down. If you see the video provided in "Hourglass Redux", you can actually see this shrinking, even though it's sand that's falling down... now I gotta think about why would sand do this too?

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    @Michael Mendrin But isn't this exactly what Laszlo Argued? there is a downwards thrust equal to q 2 g h q\sqrt{2gh} , but the weight of the downwards-accelerating water is q g t = q g 2 h g = q 2 g h qgt=qg\sqrt{\frac{2h}{g}}=q\sqrt{2gh} , where t t is the falling time, and q q is the mass flow rate

    Pedro Cardoso - 3 years ago

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    @Pedro Cardoso Oh, good point! So that's where it went. You're right. It wasn't immediately apparent from Laszlo's comments about that. I've changed my original comment at the very beginning, agreeing with the answer as 100 kg.

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    @Michael Mendrin So are we all on the same page now?

    Josh Silverman Staff - 3 years ago

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    @Josh Silverman Yeah we cool

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    @Michael Mendrin This has been a process of discovery for all of us.

    Josh Silverman Staff - 3 years ago

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    @Josh Silverman I don't think the debate about this topic is over yet, sure, the answer to this problem is 100kg, but there are a few deeper things that still seem a little weird to me, especially as it relates to the "Hourglass Redux" problem. I have made a discussion, and it would be really nice if you, @Michael Mendrin , @Blake Farrow , and @Laszlo Mihaly could your thoughts on my points here is the link to the discussion

    Pedro Cardoso - 3 years ago

    @Michael Mendrin I think the idea of reversing the flow is an interesting idea for a solution, but I can't quite understand how it works. Instead of the container and pump in the problem, if you had a closed loop of pipe with a pump maintaining flow in the presence of gravity, I think we can agree that reversing the direction of flow wouldn't affect the weight of the system (because you could always rotate the system around a vertical axis to get the original direction of flow back). Why would reversing the flow in this problem make a difference?

    Aaron Miller Staff - 3 years ago

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    I'm saying it doesn't make a difference to reverse the flow, the apparatus on the scale will still weigh more. The crux is that while the velocity of the water in the pipes is constant, the velocity of the falling (or ascending) water is not constant. If you had a closed loop of pipe, then there would be no change in weight, and we wouldn't need a pump to keep the fluid in motion in an ideal lossless system. If I had a circular pipe ring, and water was flowing at a constant rate inside it, then for symmetry reasons, there can't be any net force in any direction, in a gravitational field or not. But, here, we don't have this symmetry, and it's not a lossless system.

    The jury is still out on this one, though. I'd like to hear more from others why necessarily the weight wouldn't change.

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    Ah, I thought you were making a comparison to a situation with reversed flow as part of your argument that the weight increases.

    I agree with you that the net force is nonzero as the water goes from the intake on the side of the container up to the nozzle. However, no matter what these forces are, the flow rate through the entire system is constant—even in the column of falling water, although its velocity isn't constant. So, once the water falls and is sucked back into the intake, its momentum is exactly the same, which means zero net force has acted on it, just as in a situation with a closed loop of pipe.

    Aaron Miller Staff - 3 years ago

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    @Aaron Miller Aaron, I think I'm going to start posting some problems that could throw more light on this interesting subject, starting with lossless systems which are easier to analyze.

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

    Sorry Micheal Mendrin,but you don't know that Brillliant staff had update the answer into "100kg" instead of "more than 100kg"

    Phạm Hoàng - 3 years ago

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    Pham, this problem has been going every which way since this kind of thing started. I'm aware that the answer has been changed to 100 mg, but, like I said, I wanted to hear some arguments about this. I wasn't disappointed.

    Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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    No problem,I just warn for people open "Discuss solution" & you for next time you & they don't wrong

    Phạm Hoàng - 3 years ago

    I think the answer has been always 100kg. At least that is how I posted it originally.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

    The reaction force on the nozzle will be canceled out by the descending water hitting the eater surface

    Jackie Ng - 3 years ago

    that thing is if the 100kg was measured before the pump was started- when the pump started there would have been a noticeable drop in the weight of the system- when the water comes back into the bucket it will bring the system back to 100kg but not more than that- consider that the force used to remove the water from the system is equal to the force needed to put it back into the system- those forces cancel each other out and so we are back to the same weight as we started with

    David Hansen - 3 years ago

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    You are right. Also, when the water stops, there is surge of weight.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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    yes but that surge will quickly return back to the original weight once the momentum from the moving water stops

    David Hansen - 3 years ago

    Thought: Ignoring scale/measurement accuracy, wouldn't the registered weight be lower the moment the initial water flow exits the spout until it hits the container below?

    I'm thinking the volume of the free-falling water column (at least just before initial impact) would be weight absent the system.

    Only trying to understand.

    Duncan Leighton - 3 years ago

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    You are perfectly right. There is also another weight change, when the water flow stops. This latter one is a temporary increase of the weight, and it is the subject of my other problem, https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2018-05-21/intermediate/?p=2 .

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

    Scales don't measure kilograms- practically impossible to have a scale do that. It can only the transient force on it.

    Mark Smith - 3 years ago

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    There is an experiment performed with sand (grains of metal) where they measured everything very accurately. It is possible. https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1119/1.4973527 Look at the video recording.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

    for as far as I have learned the container with the running water may appear to be the same weight but as the water flows it is more energetic and energy = mass (e=Mc²) . So I stand with my answer that the container with the running water will be > than a 100 kg. Not Much more like really not much more but more is more.

    Friedel Majoor - 3 years ago

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    It is an interesting point. If you pick numbers to the amount of water ang the elevation, you will recognize that you are talking about a m = E / c 2 1 0 11 m=E/c^2\approx 10^{-11} kg correction.

    How about if there is a battery that is attached to the pump, and we switch it on with a timer, that is also attached to the pump. All the energy is contained in the system. There is no outside intervention. The 1 0 11 10^{-11} kg correction is gone.....

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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    ok but I can't find any mention of a battery in the question and it's possible for the water to flow without a battery!

    Friedel Majoor - 3 years ago

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    @Friedel Majoor That is correct.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

    THANK YOU! It is always great to see discussions about the question take precedence over the "solution".

    I am still slightly confused how the additional energy of a non-siphoning pump does not contribute ANY mass whatsoever, no matter how minute that might be. Again, the battery supposition is a plausible solution, but if we assume the pump is powered by external power, would that not translate into an addition of kinetic energy, at least at the outset?

    In essence, where does the energy for a perturbation of state come from; and if it is not mentioned in the question, how can we assume it is part of the "solution"?

    Joshua Nesseth - 3 years ago

    Could it be less than 100kg as well as more? The reason being, even if the pipe is full 100% of the time while pumping, the constant flow of water into what seems to be a still body of water at the initial moment, would (depending on the sensitivity of the scale) theoretically fluctuate, right? The reason I am making an assumption is because when I've tried to measure water in a small beaker to also find mass, as I was dropping the water initially, depending on the size of the original container, if the flow from the pressure is high enough, creating substantial amount of movement in the water (to the point of almost wave like ripples) if it gets sporadic enough, could it essentially sneak in moments of lesser mass while reading the scale? The idea seems to be all three would be correct due to the constant flow assuming from the initial stillness of the water, once a wave is starting, depending on size there could be an almost rhythmic wave pattern within the water, always fluctuating the water. Just randomness though.

    Morey Llerena - 3 years ago

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    Depending on the rate of flow/pressure, and the diameter would have to be measured out specifically though for such an idea. But it is only an idea.

    Morey Llerena - 3 years ago

    You are right, there will be fluctuations around the 100kg value, due to the uneven water flow hitting the tank. In the text of the problem "no splashing" means that we want to neglect those effects.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago
    Ian Leslie
    May 21, 2018

    Except during start up the weight remains at 100 kg.

    Below is a simple form of the steady-state control-volume equations for linear momentum. Here B stands for body-forces, gravity in our case, and S stands for surface forces such as pressure and stress. m ˙ \dot{m} is the mass flow rate (constant) and the V is velocity. In the accompanying figure I have drawn two control volumes. Picture these as having depth as well. The white CV encloses the entire apparatus. There is no in or out flow, so the forces (net) must be zero. In this case F y , B F_{y,B} would be the weight of everything inside the control-volume and would point down. F y , S F_{y,S} would be the force of the table acting on the bottom of the apparatus and would point up. Note that this is true regardless of the rate water is being pumped. The second control-volume, in yellow, cuts through the downward falling stream. Let the vertical cut have a height h. Now we do have fluid leaving the CV and entering the CV lower down. As was pointed out already, the reentering stream is going faster than the exiting stream due to the acceleration of gravity. But something else has changed as well: F y , B F_{y,B} . There is less mass in the yellow CV than in the white CV. The shape of the falling stream has a cross section that decreases as the velocity increases. Since mass flow is constant and the velocity is going up, the area must decrease as A = A o u t V o u t V o u t 2 2 g ( y 1 y 2 ) , 0 y 1 y 2 h A = \frac{{{A_{out}}{V_{out}}}}{{\sqrt {V_{out}^2 - 2g\left( {{y_1} - {y_2}} \right)} }},\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,0 \le {y_1} - {y_2} \le h\,\, This can be integrated to get a volume ϑ \vartheta and a weight ρ g ϑ \rho g\vartheta . The inlet velocity can be found using conservation of energy: V i n = V o u t 2 + 2 g h {V_{in}} = \sqrt {V_{out}^2 + 2gh} . Just remember that m ˙ = ρ A o u t V o u t = ρ A i n V i n \dot m = \rho {A_{out}}{V_{out}} = \rho {A_{in}}{V_{in}} . I am assuming density is constant. The integration is pretty basic. It turns out that the loss of weight is exactly equal to the increase in m ˙ V i n \dot m{V_{in}} . I used two different CVs to try and demonstrate that one has to be careful when defining the CV. This was drilled into me as an engineering student.

    Dwarkesh Virkhare
    May 23, 2018

    it seems to be energy conservation problem since first P.E is converted into K.E but some energy must have gone through the water pump in form of heat or electrical energy

    Ashley Chen
    May 23, 2018

    This solution is in my point of view. The water is being sucked into the pipe, where the water is flowing out from. Logically, the water is just going into up the 1 meter pipe, then coming back out again so it does not add or contribute to the weight, so it is 100 kg with or without the water flowing.

    J Walford
    May 23, 2018

    Put the complete apparatus inside a closed black box and imagine you don't know what's inside the box. Let's assume it's an electric pump with the wires coming out through a hole in the side of the box and connected to a power supply and switch. It would be a very interesting box if you could supply electrical power to it and have the box now weigh more or less than it did before. Maybe over time it may start to weigh less as some of the water evaporates out of the box.

    You can also put a battery into the box and make it a totally closed system.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago
    Melvin Pgs
    May 23, 2018

    Simply, there is nothing enters or leaves the pump loop

    It is not that simple. When the water starts and stops there is a temporary change of weight. See my other problem, https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2018-05-21/intermediate/?p=2 .

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago
    David Sergey
    May 25, 2018

    Running pump presumably powered by electricity, if the source is external it will add miniscule mass to the overall system, and the pump will weight a little more. If a source is internal - the pump will weight a little less - due to the fact that energy is leaving the system as heat.

    There are several comments about this in this chain of discussion. Minuscule is the key word.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago

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    I haven't read all the comments, so please excuse me if this has been said. What about the (minuscule again, I'm sure) air that is picked up by the falling water and added to the pool below? This should increase the weight.

    Peter Bangarth - 2 years, 6 months ago
    Savvas Kakouli
    May 24, 2018

    It would have been awesome if the effect would be that of diminishing the weight. You could then setup the system in a way to almost diminish the whole weight and thus make something easier to lift etc.

    Swapan Das
    May 22, 2018

    When water is pulled up,the total amount o water in the system doesn't change. Just imagine it...when water goes into the pipe it is still being wieghed. Hence the total weight remains same , that is, 100 kg

    That is not a correct reasoning. Imagine that you put a large, closed box on the scale and a person in that box throws a big rock to the air. As long as the rock is in the air, the scale will show a lower weight and yet the total amount of mass inside the box did not change.

    Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years ago
    Meera Kalluraya
    May 22, 2018

    The scale holds the foist too. So the water being in the foist does not change the weight.

    Divyansh Singhal
    May 21, 2018

    The Free body diagram is unchanged hence no change in calculation and value of normal force (weight reading)

    When the pump is working energie needs to be added to the system

    Nino Segers - 3 years ago

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    We would have considered mechanical energy if there was any change in it but as there are no non-conservative forces involved to change the mechanical energy hence we will not consider it!!!

    erica phillips - 3 years ago

    Pump doing work to lift water , so as water falls on the container it hit the surface with impact force which increases the weight but if the diameter of pipe is large then large amount of water is in air for a 1m length which decreases the weight

    Archana Gupta - 3 years ago

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