Is it equivalent to raising every term by 4?

Algebra Level 2

We know that 4 × 4 × 4 × 4 4 times = 4 4 . \underbrace{4 \times 4 \times 4 \times 4}_{4 \text{ times}} = 4^4.

But how many 4 4 4^4 are there in the left side of the equality 4 4 × 4 4 × × 4 4 How many times? = 4 ( 4 4 ) ? \underbrace{4^4 \times 4^4 \times \cdots \times 4^4}_{\text{How many times?}} = {\large 4^{\left( 4^4 \right)}} ?

4 16 64 256

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12 solutions

Chew-Seong Cheong
Feb 11, 2018

Let the number of 4 4 4^4 on the LHS be n n . Then:

4 4 × 4 4 × 4 4 × × 4 4 Number of 4 4 = n = 4 4 4 4 4 + 4 + 4 + + 4 Number of 4 = n = 4 4 4 4 4 n = 4 4 4 4 n = 4 4 n = 4 3 = 64 \large \begin{aligned} \underbrace{4^4 \times 4^4 \times 4^4 \times \cdots \times 4^4}_{\text{Number of }4^4 = n} & = 4^{4^4} \\ 4^{\overbrace{4+4+4+\cdots+4}^{\text{Number of }4 = n}} & = 4^{4^4} \\ 4^{4n} & = 4^{4^4} \\ \implies 4n & = 4^4 \\ n & = 4^3 = \boxed{64} \end{aligned}

Moderator note:

This problem is similar to last week's in attempting to get the solver to use an invalid exponent rule. The specific rule is

( a b ) c = ( a c ) b (a^b)^c = (a^c)^b

not

a ( b c ) = a ( c b ) a^{(b^c)} = a^{(c^b)}

So while ( 4 4 ) 4 (4^4)^4 has 4 copies of 4 4 , 4^4 , 4 ( 4 4 ) 4^{(4^4)} does not.

It may be helpful to remember this applies to other non-commutative operations like subtraction. For example, 10 ( 9 1 ) = 2 10 - (9 - 1) = 2 but 10 ( 1 9 ) = 18. 10 - (1 - 9) = 18 .

Neat algebraic solution. I like it.

Daniel Podobinski - 3 years, 3 months ago

Good for you. I misread the problem: careless. It reminds me of my first math professor in college. He said, "Read the problem." That quiclky became RTP. And that, after several more errors of the same sort became RTGDP.

Charles A Berg - 3 years, 3 months ago

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What does RTGDP mean?

Anshul Laikar - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Read The Gosh Darn (euphemism) Problem

Brian Egedy - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Brian Egedy I think it's the lack of sleep during my finals which made me first think you're referring to a problem called "Gosh Darn"... Don't understand how I can understand complex math problems but fail to understand simple sentences lol

Anshul Laikar - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Anshul Laikar English and Math are separate skill sets. No worries.

Brian Egedy - 3 years, 3 months ago

@Brian Egedy Hey you just taught me a new word

chase marangu - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Chase Marangu Always learning, always moving forward. Which word was it?

Brian Egedy - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Brian Egedy "euphemism"

chase marangu - 3 years, 3 months ago

I suppose it is "read the god damn problem."

Chew-Seong Cheong - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Chew-Seong Cheong hahaha oh that makes sense, thanks

Anshul Laikar - 3 years, 3 months ago

256 requires 4 times 4 So 256×256×256×256=? 4 hex (4+4+4+4) Means ans is 16

saurabh talele - 3 years, 3 months ago

4 4 4 = 4 256 = ( 4 4 ) 64 4^{4^{4}} = 4^{256} = (4^{4})^{64}

So the answer is 64.

Can you expand on this? I mean, I believe you, but how do you know this to be true?

Ken Hehir - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Don't know what you mean exactly. I just used basic rules for powers.

Peter van der Linden - 3 years, 3 months ago

What he wrote can be seen as two equalities, 4^4^4 = 4^256 and 4^256 = (4^4)^64

to solve the first one, we could imagine the priorities as the latter two 4's in a parentheses, 4^(4^4) and 4^4=256, so it's the same as writing 4^256

for the second equality,

(a^b)^c = a^(b*c) this is because "b" and "c" only tell you how many times to multiply "a".

for example (5^2)^3 = (5 5)^3 = (5 5) (5 5) (5 5) = 5 5 5 5 5 5 = 5^6 (and 2 3 = 6)

so, 4^256 = 4^(4*64) = (4^4)^64

Adrian Bard - 3 years, 3 months ago

This one's better for me to understand so thanks

Viktoras Janu - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Thank you! I am trying my best :)

Peter van der Linden - 3 years, 3 months ago

Yeah, I like this explanation because of how simple it is. All I really did was find out how much 4^4 is (which is 256) and then divide that by 4 to get 64.

Collin Sorgenfrei - 3 years, 3 months ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Feb 18, 2018

Let's answer this question more generally for n n × n n × × n n N times = n n n . \underbrace{n^n\times n^n\times \cdots \times n^n}_{N\ \text{times}} = n^{n^n}. Taking the n n -logarithm on both sides, the multiplication becomes addition: n + n + + n N times = n n . \underbrace{n+ n + \cdots + n}_{N\ \text{times}} = n^n. Thus N n = n n N = n n n = n n 1 . Nn = n^n\ \ \ \ \therefore\ \ \ \ \ N = \frac{n^n}n = n^{n-1}. In this case, N = 4 4 1 = 4 3 = 64 N = 4^{4-1} = 4^3 = \boxed{64} .

By toxology/shotgun approximation (substituting the available answers) :
4^^4^^4=~1.3E154
256^^16=~3E38
256^^256=~3E616
256^^64=~1.3E154 ;! gotcha!



J B - 3 years, 3 months ago

good explanation .. thanks

NAVIN TC - 3 years, 3 months ago

This is how I was taught to solve. Thanks

Jamie Henry - 3 years, 3 months ago

(4^4)^n=4^(4^4) => log(4^4)^n=log(4^(4^4)) => 4n log(4) = (4^4) log(4) => 4n=256 => n=64

Hesam Aref - 3 years, 3 months ago

OK 4 exp 256, so one 4 exp you have to take back to get the 4 exp 4 leaves 64 4 exp 4's

Doug Cutler - 3 years, 3 months ago
Peter Macgregor
Feb 19, 2018

4 4 4 = 4 4 × 4 3 = ( 4 4 ) 4 3 4^{4^{4}}=4^{4 \times 4^{3}}=\left(4^{4}\right)^{4^{3}}

And so the factor 4 4 4^{4} is repeated 4 3 = 4 × 4 × 4 = 64 4^{3}=4 \times 4 \times 4 = \boxed{64} times.

4 1 = 3 4-1=3 and it is to the 4 1 more time I see

chase marangu - 3 years, 3 months ago
Blan Morrison
Feb 10, 2018

Say that there are x x terms on the left side of the equation.

Using the rules of exponents, we know a m × a n = a m + n a^m \times a^n=a^{m+n}

Getting rid of the base, we can set up an equation: 4 x = 4 4 = 256 4x=4^4=256

If we divide x x from both sides, we get the solution x = 64 x=64 .

Note: the left side of the first equation is saying that there are x x 4's that are being added together.

Maybe if you divide 4 on both sides?

Dave Sweetnam - 3 years, 3 months ago

4 ( 4 4 ) = 4 4 4 4 4 = ( 4 4 ) 4 3 = ( 4 4 ) 64 4^{(4^{4}})=4^{4\cdot 4\cdot 4\cdot 4}=(4^{4})^{4^{3}}=(4^{4})^{\boxed{64}}

Le Bill Jin
Feb 18, 2018

Since 4 4 4^4 is 256 256 , by the product rule 256 4 \frac{256}{4} would be the answer 64 64 .

4 4 = 64 4^{4} = 64

4 × 4 × 4 × 4 64 \overbrace {4 \times 4 \times \ldots 4 \times 4}^{64}

So, as always 64 \boxed {64}

Chase Marangu
Feb 22, 2018

4 ( 4 4 ) = 4 256 = ( 4 4 ) 256 / 4 = 4 64 4^{(4^4)}=4^{256}=(4^4)^{256/4}=4^{64}

LaTeX \LaTeX{}

chase marangu - 3 years, 3 months ago

It's actually quite simple once you break it down : 4(2) = 4x4 =16 4(3) = 4x4x4 = 64. n =64

Purple Penguin987
Feb 20, 2018

We just went over a concept just like this in my algebra 2/ trig class (I'm still in high school). If I'm being honest I don't really know what I did but I got the answer right so I guess there's that going for me.

Josiah Gillispie
Feb 20, 2018

Using the Natural exponent definition from the introduction, the left side becomes

(4^4)^n

= 4^(4*n) = 4^(4^4)

So,

4*n = 4^4

n = 4^3 = 64

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