Is Pi = 4?

Geometry Level 1

Emma starts with a blue circle drawn on a grey piece of square paper. She cuts out maximal squares from the corner regions that touch the circle (as indicated in red).

Which is/are correct?

A. The area of the grey region is approaching the area of the circle.
B. The length of the perimeter of the grey region is approaching the circumference of the circle.

Only A Only B Both A and B Neither A nor B

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8 solutions

Every point inside the circle will always stay in the grey area. Every point outside the circle will eventually be removed. Therefore grey area area of circle . \text{grey area} \to \text{area of circle}. For each square that is cut out, two sides belong to the previous grey region, and two sides belong to the new grey region. Therefore the perimeter does not change. grey perimeter perimeter of big square . \text{grey perimeter} \to \text{perimeter of big square}.

Moderator note:

One of our staff (Zandra Vinegar) wrote this problem up for the New York Times two years ago.

External link to the New York Times article

She included a lengthy discussion of the answer, including why the perimeter trick here doesn't work for approximating pi but you can approximate pi by increasing the number of sides of an inscribed polygon. It's long, so I have transcribed her notes here:

Zandra's notes on the problem


tldr: From calculus, the formula for arc length is a b ( d x d t ) 2 + ( d y d t ) 2 d t . \int_{a}^b \sqrt{ \left( \frac{dx}{dt} \right)^2 + \left( \frac{dy}{dt} \right) ^2 } \, dt . Thus, to approximate this well, we need control over how d x d t \frac{ dx}{dt} and d y d t \frac{dy}{dt} behave.
It is clear that the square wise approximation of the length do not approximate these values well, so we shouldn't expect the perimeter to be approximated.

From calculus, the formula for area is a b y d x \int_a^b y \, dx . Thus, to approximate this well, we need control over how ( x ( t ) , y ( t ) ) ( x(t), y(t) ) behaves.
It is clear that the square wise approximation of the area approximates this value well, so we should expect the area to be approximated well.

In Continuous Taxicab Geometry the blue shape and the grey shape have the same perimeter.

I was just showing this to some students as a 'proof' that π = 4 \pi = 4 . One student shrieked and ran across the hall to hide behind another math teacher. I call that a success.

Jeremy Galvagni - 3 years, 2 months ago

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Now that is brilliant! :)

Albert Kirsch - 3 years, 2 months ago

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I guess this answers my question

Tyler Bennett - 3 years, 2 months ago

It does not make sense!!! When you cut the squares you're approaching the circle! Thus, the perimeter is the same as the circle... Somehow the question is "lost in translation"???

p a - 3 years, 2 months ago

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Imagine that the perimeter does indeed approach the circumference of the circle. If the side of the square is 1, it's perimeter is 4, and the circle would have circumference pi. As Arjen explained, the perimeter never changes. After many iterations, 4 would be considered an estimate for pi, and it would get closer and closer with each step. This implies pi = 4, which is false. Therefore, the perimeter does not approach the circumference.

Zain Majumder - 3 years, 2 months ago

Imagine you’re in a city such as NYC with a grid layout. You want to get from a block in the south West corner to the north east corner. If you go straight for 40 blocks north, then turn 90 degrees once and go straight east, that’s two long straight lines added together. Does it help to make a “shortcut” by zigzagging through the grid, one block north, then one block east, then north, then east?

No, because if you add together all the segments where you headed north, it’s going to be the same number of blocks as before. Ditto for east. So the distance travelled is the same.

I actually had an argument with someone once about this in NYC. We compromised by walking along Broadway.

Spicy Brigadoon - 3 years, 2 months ago

Your thought-error is as follows: you are confusing and collapsing two concepts without any justification: converges of geometric objects with convergence of their attributes . This is a common fallacy in the realm of thinking that many humans exhibit.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

I understand that explanation but I'd don't get how the removal of the squares doesnt approach the perimeter of the circle? How is that different than a pixelated cirlce ? Does the pixelated circles perimeter have the same length as a square with legnths = diameter ? (Which doesn't make sense).

Tyler Bennett - 3 years, 2 months ago

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You're actually correct in your analogy to a pixelated circle. That's exactly what this shape is. And a pixelated circle will have a perimeter the same length as that of the square around it. As Arjen pointed out, no matter how many squares you cut out, you will not change the shape.

The resulting shape is one that contains the area of a circle, but whose perimeter hasn't changed from that of the original square. You can think of it like a circle that has "crumpled up" edges. The lines are always vertical and horizontal, never diagonal, so you're never really saving any length by zig-zagging. I'll leave a link to a video by Vihart which also explores this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2xYjiL8yyE

Kyle Coughlin - 3 years, 2 months ago

While it seems intuitively clear that the grey area will approach the area of the circle, I saw no way to prove this conclusively. Is there a simple way to do this, or as you said, to show that every point outside the circle will eventually be removed by a red square?

zico quintina - 3 years, 2 months ago

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Yes there is.

Method 1. The box counting method. The area ( or 2d Lebesgue measure ) of an object S R 2 S\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} is defined as

L ( S ) : = inf { n N L 0 ( U n ) : n N U n S , U n a 2d box for each n N } \mathcal{L}(S):=\inf\left\{\sum_{n\in\mathbb{N}}\mathcal{L}_{0}(U_{n}):\bigcup_{n\in\mathbb{N}}U_{n}\supseteq S,~U_{n}~\text{a 2d box for each}~n\in\mathbb{N}\right\}

where ‘a 2d box’ is any set of the form [ a , b ] × [ c , d ] [a,b]\times[c,d] for a < b a<b and c < d c<d in R \mathbb{R} , and is assigned the well-defined measure L 0 ( [ a , b ] × [ c , d ] ) : = b a d c \mathcal{L}_{0}([a,b]\times[c,d]):=|b-a|\cdot|d-c| . One can also replace boxes by open, semi-open, etc. boxes, without affecting the definition of L \mathcal{L} . It is also not too difficult to prove that L L 0 \mathcal{L}\supseteq\mathcal{L}_{0} , ie that L \mathcal{L} generalises the 2d-measurement of boxes (and enjoys a lot more properties such as σ \sigma -additivity for Borel-measurable sets, etc. ).

So it almost follows per definition, that our approximating objects approach the approximated object. We still need to prove a little more, that our approximation is arbitrarily good. That is a bit technical and I can prove this in another post.

Method 2. Alternatively you can prove things via boring Riemann-integrals. This is not so powerful an approach as it requires special circumstances, which we luckily here have.

Tip. Take a course in Analysis / Measure Theory at university, or pick up a book in Analysis and teach it yourself—you can do this without having to go to university.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

Let B n R 2 B_{n}\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} denote the geometric object at stage n N n\in\mathbb{N} and B n \partial B_{n} its boundary. Similarly let S S denote the disk and S \partial S its boundary. Let μ ( ) \mu(\cdot) denote the operation computing the 2-dimensional area ( ) \ell(\cdot) the operation computing the lengths of objects. Clearly we have the following mere FACTS:

[ c ] r c l μ ( B n ) π = μ ( S ) ( B n ) = 4 ⟶̸ 2 π = ( S ) \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcl} \mu(B_{n}) &\longrightarrow &\pi=\mu(S)\\ \ell(\partial B_{n})=4 &\not\longrightarrow &2\pi=\ell(\partial S)\\ \end{array}

We need to answer two questions: 1. on what grounds could one even justify that ( B n ) ( S ) \ell(\partial B_{n})\longrightarrow\ell(\partial S) ; and 2. why does this fail? Ie, how could one almost be tricked, and why is that this reasoning is invalid.

Towards 1, we have in some not-yet-specified sense that the objects are approaching each other:

[ c ] r c l B n S B n S \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcl} B_{n} &\longrightarrow &S\\ \partial B_{n} &\longrightarrow &\partial S\\ \end{array}

Eg one could construct an homeomorphism that starts with the square (or its boundary) and approaches the disk (or its boundary) passing through each stage n n . The typical reasoning employed falls under the scheme: when a sequence of geometric objects converges to a particular object, then so too do (particular) attribute. We thus need to determine 1a do the geometric objects really converge and in what sense?; and 1b is there a theorem which guarantees that the desire attribute is continuous?

To answer this, we also need consider, just how exactly length (and for that matter, area) are being computed based on the geometric objects.

ANSATZ 1. Length computed via approximation.

Given a C 1 C^{1} curve C \mathcal{C} , parameterised by say a C 1 C^{1} function f : [ 0 , 1 ] C f:[0,1]\longrightarrow\mathcal{C} and a metric d d on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} , the Length of a the curve is given by

d ( C ) : = lim Ξ 0 i < N ( Ξ ) d ( f ( t i + 1 Ξ ) , f ( t i Ξ ) ) = : d Ξ ( C ) \ell_{d}(\mathcal{C}) := \lim_{|\Xi|\longrightarrow 0}\underbrace{ \sum_{i<N(\Xi)}d(f(t^{\Xi}_{i+1}),f(t^{\Xi}_{i})) }_{=:\ell^{\Xi}_{d}(C)}

where the limit is computed over all finite partitions

[ c ] r c c c c c c c c Ξ : 0 = t 0 Ξ t 1 Ξ t N ( Ξ ) Ξ = 1 \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcccccccc} \Xi &: &0=t^{\Xi}_{0} &\leq &t^{\Xi}_{1} &\leq &\ldots &\leq &t^{\Xi}_{N(\Xi)}=1\\ \end{array}

of [ 0 , 1 ] [0,1] and directly ordered by refinement. (One also defines Ξ : = max { t i + 1 Ξ t i Ξ : 0 i < N ( Ξ ) } |\Xi|:=\max\{|t^{\Xi}_{i+1}-t^{\Xi}_{i}|:0\leq i<N(\Xi)\} and requires this to converge to 0.)

Using this, and the metric d ( p , q ) : = q 1 p 1 + q 2 p 2 d(\mathbf{p},\mathbf{q}):=|q_{1}-p_{1}|+|q_{2}-p_{2}| , the so-called Manhattan-metric , we have that the measurements d ( B n ) \ell_{d}(\partial B_{n}) correspond (∆) to computations d Ξ n ( S ) \ell^{\Xi_{n}}_{d}(\partial S) that arise in the process of computing the limit d ( S ) \ell_{d}(\partial S) : one takes the points where the zig zag touches the circular boundary and views this as a partition of the curve. One also has Ξ n 0 |\Xi_{n}|\longrightarrow 0 . Hence, by definition , one has

d ( B n ) = d Ξ n ( S ) d ( S ) \ell_{d}(\partial B_{n})=\ell^{\Xi_{n}}_{d}(\partial S) \longrightarrow \ell_{d}(\partial S)

So, the lengths of the zig-zag curves do approach the length of the disk… just under the wrong metric! We thus know, that the length of the boundary of the disk, under the Manhattan-metric is 4, and not 2 π 2\pi . But what about the Euklidean-metric —that is what we really want. Under this metric the correspondence in (∆) no longer holds. Thus there is no positive justification for the approach ‘the objects approach each other, hence the lengths approach each other’.

ANSATZ 2. Length as a 1-dimensional measure (mass).

If one thinks about area, one may think of the box-counting method. This is the primitive basis for measure theory. The d-dimensional measure computes the d-dimensional ‘mass’ of geometric objects. Speaking to 1b above, there is a convergence result for measures. Let μ \mu me a measure and X , X 0 , X 1 , X,X_{0},X_{1},\ldots be measurable sets. Then

μ ( X Δ X n ) 0 μ ( X n ) μ ( X ) \mu(X\Delta X_{n})\longrightarrow 0 \Longrightarrow \mu(X_{n})\longrightarrow \mu(X)

Considering the 2-dimensional measure μ = L 2 \mu=\mathcal{L}^{2} on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} and the (measurable) sets S , B 0 , B 1 , R 2 S,B_{0},B_{1},\ldots\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} , one may argue that B n Δ S = B n S B_{n}\Delta S=B_{n}\setminus S is coverable by boxes whose total area converges to 0 0 with n n . Hence the condition to the above result is satisfied, implying the conclusion: convergence of areas.

Consider now the 1-dimensional measure μ = L 1 \mu=\mathcal{L}^{1} on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} and the (measurable) sets S , B 0 , B 1 , R 2 \partial S,\partial B_{0},\partial B_{1},\ldots\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} . One has that B n Δ S = ( B n S ) P n \partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S=(\partial B_{n}\cup\partial S)\setminus P_{n} , where P n : = ( B n S ) P_{n}:=(\partial B_{n}\cap\partial S) . But P n P_{n} consists of merely countably (actually finitely) many points! Hence μ ( P n ) = 0 \mu(P_{n})=0 . Thus μ ( B n Δ S ) = μ ( B n S ) μ ( P n ) μ ( S ) 0 > 0 \mu(\partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S)=\mu(\partial B_{n}\cup\partial S)-\mu(P_{n})\geq\mu(\partial S)-0 > 0 . It follows that μ ( B n Δ S ) ⟶̸ 0 \mu(\partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S)\not\longrightarrow 0 . Hence the conclusion, the convergence of lengths, is not guaranteed.

Hence, once again, there is no grounds for justifying (†) ‘the objects approach each other, hence their measures approach each other’, since under this conception of length the first part of (†) does not hold.

REMARK.

This may seem unsatisfactory. All I’m doing is undercutting potential pseudo reasons for arguing for the ‘intuitive’ thing, and revealing the reasons themselves as humbug, without determining whether or not the conclusion be true. To do the latter is straightforward: just compute the values of the lengths and show that the limit does not correspond to the length of the the limit of the objects. But that to me is unsatisfying, as it does not actually deal with why the intuitive reason is itself, independently of the facts, subject to fallacies/errors.

R Mathe - 3 years, 2 months ago

But at the limit when the area of the circle is the same as the area of the grey area, the 'square' lines have surely become points of no length on the circumference of the circle, and hence the 'perimiter' is the same as the circumference. Maybe it's the definition of perimiter that is the problem.

Richard Buttrey - 3 years, 2 months ago

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are you saying calculus works? this question and answer prove it does not, go figure

Alan Gladwin - 3 years, 2 months ago

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This question can be addressed with integrals (but doesn’t need to be), but not differential calculus (as that moderator blindly ctrl-c; ctrl-v’d). Whatever the tool, all these type of arguments show is simply that there be inputs to that tool, which do not satisfy the conditions, under which the tool will guarantee nice properties. It is invalid to thereby conclude that the tool does not work. Each mathematical tool as a limited range of usage.

R Mathe - 3 years, 2 months ago

lines have surely become points of no length on the circumference of the circle

Not really. In fact, the lines remain measure-theoretically separated from the circle by a measure bounded below by a positive real. This holds for most approximations anyway, so it’s not the deciding point. The deciding point is whether there is a correspondence between the approximations-curves , ( B n \partial B_{n} in my post below), or at least their lengths, and approximation-curves (or their lengths) that arise in the computation of the limit…

d ( C ) : = lim Ξ 0 i < N ( Ξ ) d ( f ( t i + 1 Ξ ) , f ( t i Ξ ) ) = : d Ξ ( C ) \ell_{d}(\mathcal{C}) := \lim_{|\Xi|\longrightarrow 0}\underbrace{ \sum_{i<N(\Xi)}d(f(t^{\Xi}_{i+1}),f(t^{\Xi}_{i})) }_{=:\ell^{\Xi}_{d}(C)}

where f f is a ( C 1 C^{1} -)parameterisation of the curve, C \mathcal{C} , whose length is being computed, d d is a fixed metric (we need the the Euklidean-metric) and the limit is computed over all finite partitions

[ c ] r c c c c c c c c Ξ : 0 = t 0 Ξ t 1 Ξ t N ( Ξ ) Ξ = 1 \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcccccccc} \Xi &: &0=t^{\Xi}_{0} &\leq &t^{\Xi}_{1} &\leq &\ldots &\leq &t^{\Xi}_{N(\Xi)}=1\\ \end{array}

of [ 0 , 1 ] [0,1] and directly ordered by refinement and by strictly decreasing values of Ξ : = max { t i + 1 Ξ t i Ξ : 0 i < N ( Ξ ) } |\Xi|:=\max\{|t^{\Xi}_{i+1}-t^{\Xi}_{i}|:0\leq i<N(\Xi)\} .

(see my post below for more details.)

In our case, this correspondence does not hold : neither the jagged curves nor their lengths correspond to actual approximation curves in the computation of d ( C ) \ell_{d}(\mathcal{C}) . It would do so if the jagged curve were a series of line-segments between points that all lie on the curve, and if the distances between these converged uniformly to 0. But this is not the case.

and hence the 'perimiter' is the same as the circumference.

By what logic? You cannot go on gut feelings and intuition. In mathematics, one has to produce the lemmata/theorems, in order to draw such implications. There is no theorem which guarantees, if a series of geometric ‘curves’ converges pointwise to another geometric curve, C \mathcal{C} , then the lengths converge to the length of C \mathcal{C} .

Length can be computed by different processes. Under some processes the lengths converge (see my post below), but then the paradigm of length used is a different one (and indeed under that metric, the curves converge uniformly).

R Mathe - 3 years, 2 months ago

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Hi, You'll have to forgive me but I'm a mere human being without your detailed applied theoretical mathematical background, who just likes these mathematical type puzzles. However you said "The deciding point is whether there is a correspondence between the approximations-curves", by which I assume you mean that if there is no correspondence between the curves then the curves are not the same length, hence the answer A given is correct.

But if that is the case can't we equally say "The deciding point is whether there is a correspondence between the approximations-areas", and applying your maths doesn't that give you a similar result in that the areas are not the same.

As I say I'm out of my depth with the maths and need to try and understand this from a fairly basic level. Maybe that just isn't possible,

Richard Buttrey - 3 years, 1 month ago

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@Richard Buttrey To clarify, I think you looked at only the first part of my ‘the deciding point is’ quote:

The deciding point is whether there is a correspondence between the approximations-curves […] and approximation-curves […] that arise in the computation of the limit.

So, we have in the picture a sequence of approximations curves, say C 0 , C 1 , C 2 , \mathcal{C}_{0}, \mathcal{C}_{1}, \mathcal{C}_{2},\ldots . The question is, do these approximation curve arise in computing the integral, which yields the length? The answer is No. Approximation curves for the integral would consist of straight lines between points on the circle. Our sequence looks nothing like this. Hence there is no grounds to believe that their attributes (length) will approach the attribute (length) of the curve being approximated.

Regarding area, this integral approach is not the right comparison. The right comparison would be the d d -dimensional box counting method. This a completely different setup, but again there is a result of the form CONDITION \Longrightarrow attributes of approximating objects approach attribute of object being approximated. For this, the condition fails when it comes to the 1 1 -dimensional attribute (length). But they are satisfied when it comes to the 2 2 -dimensional attribute (area). To show these requires some understanding of maths.

To sum up: we are using ‘the same maths’, but the maths yields a conditional result. In the one case (regarding areas), the condition is satisfied, in the other the condition fails (regarding lengths). So there is no inconsistency. As I pointed out in the Fazit , I’m trying to find the most reasonable grounds under which one may appeal to general scheme that guarantees the result we want (convergence of attributes), and then to show whether the conditions to these schemes succeed or fail.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

The moderator comment fails to explain what we mean by a good approximation.

Let's observe what is going on when we slice a single square corner. We have removed a segment of the area outside of the circle. Notice that we will always cut further corners while still being outside of the circle. In doing so, we are removing more and more of the area outside the circle, and hence tending towards the circle's area.

Now let's look at what is going on with the perimeter. After the first "cut" is made, in the top left corner (for reference), you'll notice that the left and top side of the red square equal the new "added" length of the perimeter (basically the right and bottom sides of the red square). But these corresponding sides are equal in length! Hence the perimeter of the top left corner hasn't changed. This argument extends to all corners, and equally to all cuts made, as the process simply repeats itself, irrespective of position and size of cut made.

Keep it simple, stupid.

Daniel Podobinski - 3 years, 2 months ago

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you'll notice that the left and top side of the red square equal the new "added" length of the perimeter (basically the right and bottom sides of the red square). […] Hence the perimeter of the top left corner hasn't changed.

Yes… that is true. But this factual explanation fails to undercut the (faulty) logic which people use: (†) ‘sequence of geometric objects \longrightarrow particular geometric object \Longrightarrow sequence attribute-values (lengths/areas) of the geometric objects \longrightarrow attribute-value (length/area) of particular geometric object’.

To do this, one cannot simply point out the falsehood of the conclusion. One has to figure out which typical mathematical theorems could be used to guarantee (†), and then show that the premise does not hold, or that the result is being incorrectly applied (eg fallacy of ambiguity of terms, etc.). See my reply to @Richard Buttrey .

R Mathe - 3 years, 2 months ago

I didn't understand in the moderator note about why is the area formula as an integral over y whereas as it is a square shouldn't it be y^2 and if not why????Pls help!!!

erica phillips - 3 years, 1 month ago

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No… basic areas are d y d x dy·dx . Integrating first over y yields ( y 2 ( x ) y 1 ( x ) ) d x (y_{2}(x)-y_{1}(x))·dx and then integrating over x yields x = a b y 2 ( x ) d x x = a b y 1 ( x ) d x \int_{x=a}^{b}y_{2}(x)~dx-\int_{x=a}^{b}y_{1}(x)~dx , where y 1 ( ) , y 2 ( ) y_{1}(\cdot),y_{2}(\cdot) are the bounding curves (assuming the setup is really simple). Why on Earth would Area be given by y 2 d x \int y^{2}~dx ? Just count up the dimensions and you will see, that this is a 3d-measurement.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

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Thanks!!!!

erica phillips - 3 years, 1 month ago

I think both the options are false. Since keeping on folding squares like this would make us to fall in a condition where a square wil have an arc above its diagonal we can not fold the square at that time.....further if the area of square is approaching area of circle then at the moment when it is very close its perimeter will be same as that of circle but if that happend pi obtains a value 4 which is not possible hence both options should be wrong.

tushar tyagi - 3 years, 1 month ago

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You’re working with mere lazy Hand-wavy intuition. One cannot do this in mathematics. Working through the details yields that the answer above is correct.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

Approaching is the key word here

Zoe Codrington - 2 years, 9 months ago

I don't understand the formulas, but I do understand graph paper. To me it's crazy, the perimeter part, but true. Duplicate the starting image on graphing paper and then start crossing out one square at a time until you get as close as the whole squares will allow you to get to the circle. The perimeter of what use to be a perfect square is the same as the starting square.

William Gardner - 3 years, 1 month ago

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That the objects converge to the circle is not sufficient. Only under certain circumstances does one have the implication

convergence of objects \Longrightarrow convergence of their attributes (to the attribute of the object being approximated)

This exercise demonstrates a concrete situation, where the implication does not hold, thus these circumstances are missing, and if one looks carefully, that is indeed what happens.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Zoe Codrington - 2 years, 9 months ago
Physics Reviewer
Apr 7, 2018

Each time you make a rectangular cut, you do not alter the perimeter of the figure. This is simple to observe since all such square "cuts" are basically the same as if you reflected the original corner over the two "new" vertices. Reflections never change perimeter because the total distance is preserved. Another way of viewing this problem is that if you were to project every single segment outward to the original square, they would fill it in nicely, meaning the perimeter is the same.

Aditya Sharma
Apr 8, 2018

On each corner as you cut an square you eliminate 2 side of that square but at the same time produce two new edge of same length so the parameter of outer region remain constant.

Right, but why does the area approach the circle, though?

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 2 months ago

Most answers here are subject to the same faulty logic. Let B n R 2 B_{n}\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} denote the geometric object at stage n N n\in\mathbb{N} and B n \partial B_{n} its boundary. Similarly let S S denote the disk and S \partial S its boundary. Let μ ( ) \mu(\cdot) denote the operation computing the 2-dimensional area ( ) \ell(\cdot) the operation computing the lengths of objects. Clearly we have the following mere FACTS:

[ c ] r c l μ ( B n ) π = μ ( S ) ( B n ) = 4 ⟶̸ 2 π = ( S ) \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcl} \mu(B_{n}) &\longrightarrow &\pi=\mu(S)\\ \ell(\partial B_{n})=4 &\not\longrightarrow &2\pi=\ell(\partial S)\\ \end{array}

We need to answer two questions: 1. on what grounds could one even justify that ( B n ) ( S ) \ell(\partial B_{n})\longrightarrow\ell(\partial S) ; and 2. why does this fail? Ie, how could one almost be tricked, and why does that reasoning fail.

Towards 1, we have in some not-yet-specified sense that the objects are approaching each other:

[ c ] r c l B n S B n S \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcl} B_{n} &\longrightarrow &S\\ \partial B_{n} &\longrightarrow &\partial S\\ \end{array}

Eg one could construct an homeomorphism that starts with the square (or its boundary) and approaches the disk (or its boundary) passing through each stage n n . The typical reasoning employed falls under the scheme: when a sequence of geometric objects converges to a particular object, then so too do (particular) attribute. We thus need to determine 1a do the geometric objects really converge and in what sense?; and 1b is there a theorem which guarantees that the desire attribute is continuous?

To answer this, we also need consider, just how exactly length (and for that matter, area) are being computed based on the geometric objects.

ANSATZ 1. Length computed via approximation.

Given a C 1 C^{1} curve C \mathcal{C} , parameterised by say a C 1 C^{1} function f : [ 0 , 1 ] C f:[0,1]\longrightarrow\mathcal{C} and a metric d d on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} , the Length of a the curve is given by

d ( C ) : = lim Ξ 0 i < N ( Ξ ) d ( f ( t i + 1 Ξ ) , f ( t i Ξ ) ) = : d Ξ ( C ) \ell_{d}(\mathcal{C}) := \lim_{|\Xi|\longrightarrow 0}\underbrace{ \sum_{i<N(\Xi)}d(f(t^{\Xi}_{i+1}),f(t^{\Xi}_{i})) }_{=:\ell^{\Xi}_{d}(C)}

where the limit is computed over all finite partitions

[ c ] r c c c c c c c c Ξ : 0 = t 0 Ξ t 1 Ξ t N ( Ξ ) Ξ = 1 \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcccccccc} \Xi &: &0=t^{\Xi}_{0} &\leq &t^{\Xi}_{1} &\leq &\ldots &\leq &t^{\Xi}_{N(\Xi)}=1\\ \end{array}

of [ 0 , 1 ] [0,1] and directly ordered by refinement. (One also defines Ξ : = max { t i + 1 Ξ t i Ξ : 0 i < N ( Ξ ) } |\Xi|:=\max\{|t^{\Xi}_{i+1}-t^{\Xi}_{i}|:0\leq i<N(\Xi)\} and requires this to converge to 0.)

Using this, and the metric d ( p , q ) : = q 1 p 1 + q 2 p 2 d(\mathbf{p},\mathbf{q}):=|q_{1}-p_{1}|+|q_{2}-p_{2}| , the so-called Manhattan-metric , we have that the measurements d ( B n ) \ell_{d}(\partial B_{n}) correspond (∆) to computations d Ξ n ( S ) \ell^{\Xi_{n}}_{d}(\partial S) that arise in the process of computing the limit d ( S ) \ell_{d}(\partial S) : one takes the points where the zig zag touches the circular boundary and views this as a partition of the curve. One also has Ξ n 0 |\Xi_{n}|\longrightarrow 0 . Hence, by definition , one has

d ( B n ) = d Ξ n ( S ) d ( S ) \ell_{d}(\partial B_{n})=\ell^{\Xi_{n}}_{d}(\partial S) \longrightarrow \ell_{d}(\partial S)

So, the lengths of the zig-zag curves do approach the length of the disk… just under the wrong metric! We thus know, that the length of the boundary of the disk, under the Manhattan-metric is 4, and not 2 π 2\pi . But what about the Euklidean-metric —that is what we really want. Under this metric the correspondence in (∆) no longer holds. Thus there is no positive justification for the approach ‘the objects approach each other, hence the lengths approach each other’.

ANSATZ 2. Length as a 1-dimensional measure (mass).

If one thinks about area, one may think of the box-counting method. This is the primitive basis for measure theory. The d-dimensional measure computes the d-dimensional ‘mass’ of geometric objects. Speaking to 1b above, there is a convergence result for measures. Let μ \mu me a measure and X , X 0 , X 1 , X,X_{0},X_{1},\ldots be measurable sets. Then

μ ( X Δ X n ) 0 μ ( X n ) μ ( X ) \mu(X\Delta X_{n})\longrightarrow 0 \Longrightarrow \mu(X_{n})\longrightarrow \mu(X)

Considering the 2-dimensional measure μ = L 2 \mu=\mathcal{L}^{2} on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} and the (measurable) sets S , B 0 , B 1 , R 2 S,B_{0},B_{1},\ldots\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} , one may argue that B n Δ S = B n S B_{n}\Delta S=B_{n}\setminus S is coverable by boxes whose total area converges to 0 0 with n n . Hence the condition to the above result is satisfied, implying the conclusion: convergence of areas.

Consider now the 1-dimensional measure μ = L 1 \mu=\mathcal{L}^{1} on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} and the (measurable) sets S , B 0 , B 1 , R 2 \partial S,\partial B_{0},\partial B_{1},\ldots\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} . One has that B n Δ S = ( B n S ) P n \partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S=(\partial B_{n}\cup\partial S)\setminus P_{n} , where P n : = ( B n S ) P_{n}:=(\partial B_{n}\cap\partial S) . But P n P_{n} consists of merely countably (actually finitely) many points! Hence μ ( P n ) = 0 \mu(P_{n})=0 . Thus μ ( B n Δ S ) = μ ( B n S ) μ ( P n ) μ ( S ) 0 > 0 \mu(\partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S)=\mu(\partial B_{n}\cup\partial S)-\mu(P_{n})\geq\mu(\partial S)-0 > 0 . It follows that μ ( B n Δ S ) ⟶̸ 0 \mu(\partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S)\not\longrightarrow 0 . Hence the conclusion, the convergence of lengths, is not guaranteed.

Hence, once again, there is no grounds for justifying (†) ‘the objects approach each other, hence their measures approach each other’, since under this conception of length the first part of (†) does not hold.

REMARK.

This may seem unsatisfactory. All I’m doing is undercutting potential pseudo reasons for arguing for the ‘intuitive’ thing, and revealing the reasons themselves as humbug, without determining whether or not the conclusion be true. To do the latter is straightforward: just compute the values of the lengths and show that the limit does not correspond to the length of the the limit of the objects. But that to me is unsatisfying, as it does not actually deal with why the intuitive reason is itself, independently of the facts, fails / is subject to fallacies/errors.

R Mathe - 3 years, 2 months ago

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This is a very rigorous and thoroughly explained comment. I think this deserves to be a solution in its own right. Could you please submit this as a solution?

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 1 month ago

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I originally wanted to. But I could not figure out how. I only seem to find HTML-fields for replying but none for post a solution. How do I do this?

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

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@R Mathe You can use the "Add your own solution" pane at the top, as in the image:

If you have trouble doing this, let me know.

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 1 month ago

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@Agnishom Chattopadhyay I do not have access to this field: screenshot of this page screenshot of this page I would like to both be able to post own solutions and if possible post exercises.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

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@R Mathe To post problems, you can go to https://brilliant.org/newsfeed/create/problem/

To post images, you can use the ![Image Description](Image Link) syntax

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 1 month ago

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@Agnishom Chattopadhyay Okay, thanks! But why can I not post a solution in the main thread? Is it because you’re a premium User and I’m not?

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

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@R Mathe No, every user should be able to post solutions. I have asked some staff members to convert your comment to a solution

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 1 month ago

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@Agnishom Chattopadhyay Thanks, but I still cannot post. I can post on some questions (eg yours, which were quite enjoyable), but for some reason, not all. For example, I cannot comment on <a href='https://brilliant.org/problems/infinite-graph-coloring'>this problem</a>, but I could on the problem from recursion theory / finite model theory, the finite vector space problem, etc.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

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@R Mathe You might not be able to post on problems which you have not answered correctly. If you are still having problems, let me know.


I saw your solutions. They are very well detailed and nicely written. Thanks for them.

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 1 month ago
Starone Kund
Apr 9, 2018

I reckoned that the statement B meant that the perimeter of the grey region i.e., the square approaching the circle is the same as the perimeter of the square being equal to the circumference of the circle, which is not true. Hence I opted for option A that states only statement A is correct

Each square that is removed leaves squares with a side length that is 1/2 of that of the square removed, so the sum of the grey sides of the squares is less than the previous sum but more than the circumference of the circle. As the removal of the squares continue the sum of the grey sides gradually approaches the the length of the circumference of the circle. As s -> 0 the sum(s) -> the circumference. This is a classic example of the Limit Theorem in Calculus.

A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 2 months ago
Matanel Ginzburg
Apr 15, 2018

The area of the gray is clearly getting smaller, but with more zigzag lines, the perimeter of the gray area is getting larger- much larger than the circumference of the circle.

Andrew Hayes Staff
May 8, 2018

User @Ralf Oeffen gives this analysis of this situation:


Most answers here are subject to the same faulty logic. Let B n R 2 B_{n}\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} denote the geometric object at stage n N n\in\mathbb{N} and B n \partial B_{n} its boundary. Similarly let S S denote the disk and S \partial S its boundary. Let μ ( ) \mu(\cdot) denote the operation computing the 2-dimensional area ( ) \ell(\cdot) the operation computing the lengths of objects. Clearly we have the following mere FACTS:

[ c ] r c l μ ( B n ) π = μ ( S ) ( B n ) = 4 ⟶̸ 2 π = ( S ) \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcl} \mu(B_{n}) &\longrightarrow &\pi=\mu(S)\\ \ell(\partial B_{n})=4 &\not\longrightarrow &2\pi=\ell(\partial S)\\ \end{array}

We need to answer two questions: 1. on what grounds could one even justify that ( B n ) ( S ) \ell(\partial B_{n})\longrightarrow\ell(\partial S) ; and 2. why does this fail? Ie, how could one almost be tricked, and why does that reasoning fail.

Towards 1, we have in some not-yet-specified sense that the objects are approaching each other:

[ c ] r c l B n S B n S \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcl} B_{n} &\longrightarrow &S\\ \partial B_{n} &\longrightarrow &\partial S\\ \end{array}

Eg one could construct an homeomorphism that starts with the square (or its boundary) and approaches the disk (or its boundary) passing through each stage n n . The typical reasoning employed falls under the scheme: when a sequence of geometric objects converges to a particular object, then so too do (particular) attribute. We thus need to determine 1a do the geometric objects really converge and in what sense?; and 1b is there a theorem which guarantees that the desire attribute is continuous?

To answer this, we also need consider, just how exactly length (and for that matter, area) are being computed based on the geometric objects.

ANSATZ 1. Length computed via approximation.

Given a C 1 C^{1} curve C \mathcal{C} , parameterised by say a C 1 C^{1} function f : [ 0 , 1 ] C f:[0,1]\longrightarrow\mathcal{C} and a metric d d on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} , the Length of a the curve is given by

d ( C ) : = lim Ξ 0 i < N ( Ξ ) d ( f ( t i + 1 Ξ ) , f ( t i Ξ ) ) = : d Ξ ( C ) \ell_{d}(\mathcal{C}) := \lim_{|\Xi|\longrightarrow 0}\underbrace{ \sum_{i<N(\Xi)}d(f(t^{\Xi}_{i+1}),f(t^{\Xi}_{i})) }_{=:\ell^{\Xi}_{d}(C)}

where the limit is computed over all finite partitions

[ c ] r c c c c c c c c Ξ : 0 = t 0 Ξ t 1 Ξ t N ( Ξ ) Ξ = 1 \begin{array}{c}[c]{rcccccccc} \Xi &: &0=t^{\Xi}_{0} &\leq &t^{\Xi}_{1} &\leq &\ldots &\leq &t^{\Xi}_{N(\Xi)}=1\\ \end{array}

of [ 0 , 1 ] [0,1] and directly ordered by refinement. (One also defines Ξ : = max { t i + 1 Ξ t i Ξ : 0 i < N ( Ξ ) } |\Xi|:=\max\{|t^{\Xi}_{i+1}-t^{\Xi}_{i}|:0\leq i<N(\Xi)\} and requires this to converge to 0.)

Using this, and the metric d ( p , q ) : = q 1 p 1 + q 2 p 2 d(\mathbf{p},\mathbf{q}):=|q_{1}-p_{1}|+|q_{2}-p_{2}| , the so-called Manhattan-metric , we have that the measurements d ( B n ) \ell_{d}(\partial B_{n}) correspond (∆) to computations d Ξ n ( S ) \ell^{\Xi_{n}}_{d}(\partial S) that arise in the process of computing the limit d ( S ) \ell_{d}(\partial S) : one takes the points where the zig zag touches the circular boundary and views this as a partition of the curve. One also has Ξ n 0 |\Xi_{n}|\longrightarrow 0 . Hence, by definition , one has

d ( B n ) = d Ξ n ( S ) d ( S ) \ell_{d}(\partial B_{n})=\ell^{\Xi_{n}}_{d}(\partial S) \longrightarrow \ell_{d}(\partial S)

So, the lengths of the zig-zag curves do approach the length of the disk… just under the wrong metric! We thus know, that the length of the boundary of the disk, under the Manhattan-metric is 4, and not 2 π 2\pi . But what about the Euklidean-metric —that is what we really want. Under this metric the correspondence in (∆) no longer holds. Thus there is no positive justification for the approach ‘the objects approach each other, hence the lengths approach each other’.

ANSATZ 2. Length as a 1-dimensional measure (mass).

If one thinks about area, one may think of the box-counting method. This is the primitive basis for measure theory. The d-dimensional measure computes the d-dimensional ‘mass’ of geometric objects. Speaking to 1b above, there is a convergence result for measures. Let μ \mu me a measure and X , X 0 , X 1 , X,X_{0},X_{1},\ldots be measurable sets. Then

μ ( X Δ X n ) 0 μ ( X n ) μ ( X ) \mu(X\Delta X_{n})\longrightarrow 0 \Longrightarrow \mu(X_{n})\longrightarrow \mu(X)

Considering the 2-dimensional measure μ = L 2 \mu=\mathcal{L}^{2} on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} and the (measurable) sets S , B 0 , B 1 , R 2 S,B_{0},B_{1},\ldots\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} , one may argue that B n Δ S = B n S B_{n}\Delta S=B_{n}\setminus S is coverable by boxes whose total area converges to 0 0 with n n . Hence the condition to the above result is satisfied, implying the conclusion: convergence of areas.

Consider now the 1-dimensional measure μ = L 1 \mu=\mathcal{L}^{1} on R 2 \mathbb{R}^{2} and the (measurable) sets S , B 0 , B 1 , R 2 \partial S,\partial B_{0},\partial B_{1},\ldots\subseteq\mathbb{R}^{2} . One has that B n Δ S = ( B n S ) P n \partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S=(\partial B_{n}\cup\partial S)\setminus P_{n} , where P n : = ( B n S ) P_{n}:=(\partial B_{n}\cap\partial S) . But P n P_{n} consists of merely countably (actually finitely) many points! Hence μ ( P n ) = 0 \mu(P_{n})=0 . Thus μ ( B n Δ S ) = μ ( B n S ) μ ( P n ) μ ( S ) 0 > 0 \mu(\partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S)=\mu(\partial B_{n}\cup\partial S)-\mu(P_{n})\geq\mu(\partial S)-0 > 0 . It follows that μ ( B n Δ S ) ⟶̸ 0 \mu(\partial B_{n}\Delta\partial S)\not\longrightarrow 0 . Hence the conclusion, the convergence of lengths, is not guaranteed.

Hence, once again, there is no grounds for justifying (†) ‘the objects approach each other, hence their measures approach each other’, since under this conception of length the first part of (†) does not hold.

REMARK.

This may seem unsatisfactory. All I’m doing is undercutting potential pseudo reasons for arguing for the ‘intuitive’ thing, and revealing the reasons themselves as humbug, without determining whether or not the conclusion be true. To do the latter is straightforward: just compute the values of the lengths and show that the limit does not correspond to the length of the the limit of the objects. But that to me is unsatisfying, as it does not actually deal with why the intuitive reason is itself, independently of the facts, fails / is subject to fallacies/errors.

Emilie Vockeroth
Apr 14, 2018

Imagine you're folding the corner of the square in to touch the circle, the perimeter is the same its just being moved inwards

Samuel Godswill
Apr 13, 2018

Vi-Hart made a video about this.

Yeah, I remember that, but she failed to explain using actual mathematics, why the reasoning failed. As far as I recall she used some hand-wavy circular reasoning.

R Mathe - 3 years, 1 month ago

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