Iterative Nightmare

Calculus Level 1

Let f , g : R R f,g : \mathbb{R} \longrightarrow \mathbb{R} such that f ( 2 x ) = 2 f ( x ) f(2x)=2f(x) and g ( x ) = x + f ( g ( x ) ) . g(x) = x+ f\big(g(x)\big).

If 2 g ( x ) 2g(x) is in the range of g g for all real x , x, then is it always true that g ( 2 x ) = 2 g ( x ) ? g(2x)=2g(x)?

Note : f f and g g are not necessarily continuous over R . \mathbb{R}.

Yes No Impossible to say

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

7 solutions

Chew-Seong Cheong
Mar 31, 2018

g ( x ) = x + f ( x + f ( x + f ( x + f ( ) ) ) ) Note that f ( x ) = 1 2 f ( 2 x ) = x + 1 2 f ( 2 x + 2 f ( x + f ( x + f ( ) ) ) ) = x + 1 2 f ( 2 x + 2 2 f ( 2 x + 2 2 f ( 2 x + 2 2 f ( ) ) ) ) = x + 1 2 f ( 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( ) ) ) ) \begin{aligned} g(x) & = x + f(x+f(x+f(x+f(\cdots)))) & \small \color{#3D99F6} \text{Note that }f(x) = \frac 12 f(2x) \\ & = x + \frac 12 f(2x+2f(x+f(x+f(\cdots)))) \\ & = x + \frac 12 f\left(2x+\frac 22 f\left(2x+\frac 22 f\left(2x+\frac 22 f\left(\cdots\right)\right)\right)\right) \\ & = \color{#3D99F6} x + \frac 12 f\left(2x+f\left(2x+f\left(2x+ f\left(\cdots\right)\right)\right)\right) \end{aligned}

Now,

g ( 2 x ) = 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( ) ) ) ) = 2 ( x + 1 2 f ( 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( ) ) ) ) ) = 2 g ( x ) \begin{aligned} g(2x) & = 2x + f(2x+f(2x+f(2x+f(\cdots)))) \\ & = 2\left({\color{#3D99F6}x + \frac 12 f\left(2x+f\left(2x+f\left(2x+ f\left(\cdots\right)\right)\right)\right)}\right) \\ & = 2{\color{#3D99F6}g(x)}\ \blacksquare \end{aligned}

Hey Chew-Seong Cheong How much time did it take to slove this one?

Sanad Kadu - 3 years, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Probably half an hour. I remember solving it while taking a bath.

Chew-Seong Cheong - 3 years, 2 months ago

It is possible there is some x such that g(x) is defined but g(2x) is not?

Jeremy Galvagni - 3 years, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

The function maps from the set of real numbers to the set of real numbers. Given the constraint that f ( 2 x ) = 2 f ( x ) f(2x)=2f(x) , we know there cannot be some x such that g(x) is defined but g(2x) is not.

Kevin Tong - 3 years, 2 months ago

Did the same way,at last!!!xD

erica phillips - 3 years, 1 month ago
Davide Lombardi
Apr 9, 2018

The only type of function define in R \mathbb{R} that satisfy the property f ( 2 x ) = 2 f ( x ) f(2x)=2f(x) is the linear function f ( x ) = k x , k R f(x) =kx, \forall k \in \mathbb{R} .

Since g ( x ) g(x) is construced by f ( x ) f(x) with a recursive sequence of linear combination two linear functions ( f ( x ) f(x) and x x ) , also g ( x ) g(x) is linear.

Then g ( 2 x ) = 2 g ( x ) g(2x)=2g(x)

There actually are some non-linear functions which satisfy the property. For instance, define f(x) so that f(x) = x if x is rational, but f(x) = 2x if x is irrational.

Andrew Dickson - 3 years, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

You're rigth. To be precise the property f(2x)=2f(x) is valid for homogeneus function of degree 1. In addition this result can be generalized for homogeneus function of degree 1 defined in vector spaces with coefficient in a field

Davide Lombardi - 3 years, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

The equation is valid for homogeneous functions of degree 1, but I don't think it's true that f f must necessarily be homogeneous.

Jason Martin - 3 years, 1 month ago
Romain Bouchard
Mar 30, 2018

Let ( g n ) n N (g_n)_{n\in\mathbb{N}} the functional sequence such that g 0 ( x ) = x g_0(x) = x and n N , g n + 1 ( x ) = x + f ( g n ( x ) ) \forall n \in \mathbb{N}, g_{n+1}(x)=x+f(g_n(x)) .

We have lim n g n ( x ) = g ( x ) \lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}g_n(x) = g(x) .

We have as well g 0 ( 2 x ) = 2 x = 2 g 0 ( x ) g_0(2x) = 2x = 2g_0(x) .

Let's suppose that for n N , g n ( 2 x ) = 2 g n ( x ) n\in\mathbb{N}, g_n(2x)=2g_n(x) , x R \forall x \in \mathbb{R} .

We then have g n + 1 ( 2 x ) = 2 x + f ( g n ( 2 x ) ) = 2 x + f ( 2 g n ( x ) ) = 2 x + 2 f ( g n ( x ) ) = 2 ( x + f ( g n ( x ) ) = 2 g n ( x ) g_{n+1}(2x)=2x+f(g_n(2x))=2x+f(2g_n(x))=2x+2f(g_n(x))=2(x+f(g_n(x))=2g_n(x)

Hence n N , g n ( 2 x ) = 2 g n ( x ) \forall n \in \mathbb{N}, g_{n}(2x)=2g_n(x) , x R \forall x \in \mathbb{R} and thus g ( 2 x ) = lim n g n ( 2 x ) = lim n 2 g n ( x ) = 2 lim n g n ( x ) = 2 g ( x ) ) g(2x) = \lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}g_n(2x) = \lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}2g_n(x) = 2\lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}g_n(x) = 2g(x))

Technically, this solution is not correct. The solution of an equation should be independent of the topology. When you take limits, you are making an implicit assumption (of the usual Euclidean topology). Indeed, the second line of your solution is questionable.

Abhishek Sinha - 3 years, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

It is a flaw of the question that g is not defined rigorously but just by the use of dots. If you correct this flaw, you have to employ some limit because the dots are nothing else than a limit.

The value of g itself depends on the used topology, without a topology, g is not defined at all.

The solution does not make use of a specific topology, you can see the limit in whatever hausdorff-topology you want. The only thing we need is, that multiplication with 2 is continuous w.r.t. this topology and we need that as well in the other solution, it is just hidden in the dots.

Keine Angabe - 3 years, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Thanks very much for the clarification. I made the choice to use the dots to define g g knowing that it is not rigorous but would appeal more to potential solver (as with continued fraction it is visually more pleasant imo.)

Romain Bouchard - 3 years, 2 months ago

g g can be interpreted as a solution of the equation g ( x ) = x + f ( g ( x ) ) . g(x)= x+f(g(x)). It does not need to involve a topology.

Abhishek Sinha - 3 years, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Abhishek Sinha If we define g with this equation are we certain that g exist and that there is a unique solution to this equation ? If we define g with a limit we also need to prove that the limite exist... in any case it doesn't seems that easy to me.

Antoine Diot - 3 years, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Antoine Diot You can set up whatever equation you want. But it takes a proof to show that whether the equation has a solution or not, and if it has, whether the solution is unique. Clearly, there is a solution for g ( x ) = x + f ( g ( x ) ) g(x)=x+f(g(x)) , when both f f and g g are linear. Here the problem is to show that for all solutions it holds that g ( 2 x ) = 2 g ( x ) g(2x)=2g(x) .

In this particular case, it can be shown that f f (and hence g g ) does not have a unique solution. In fact, there are some very strange non-linear solutions for f f . All solutions of Cauchy Functional Equation are also solutions of f f .

Abhishek Sinha - 3 years, 2 months ago

@Abhishek Sinha @Abhishek Sinha , @Antoine Diot : You may be interested in the counter example I gave in the reports section of this problem. My interpretation of the equation is the same as yours, Abhishek. Any feedback is appreciated!

Thomas Ponweiser - 3 years ago

Quite frankly, if this solution is flawed, then every one is. They either assume something incorrect or they implicitly make the same "error" of applying a topology when interpreting the dots.

If you have a valid proof using no implicit topology, please share.

Brian Moehring - 3 years, 1 month ago

Log in to reply

You may be interested in the counter example which I gave in the reports section of this problem. Any feedback is appreciated!

Thomas Ponweiser - 3 years ago
Jason Martin
Apr 15, 2018

Note that g ( x ) = x + f ( g ( x ) ) g(x)=x+f(g(x)) which yields g ( x ) f ( g ( x ) ) = x g(x)-f(g(x))=x

Notice this means the function h ( y ) = y f ( y ) h(y)=y-f(y) is the inverse function of g g , when its domain is restricted to g ( R ) g(\mathbb{R}) .

Clearly, h h has the property h ( 2 y ) = 2 h ( y ) h(2y)=2h(y) for all y R y \in \mathbb{R} . Now choose x R x \in \mathbb{R} and set y = g ( x ) y=g(x) . Unfortunately, to proceed from this point, one must assume 2 y g ( R ) 2y \in g(\mathbb{R}) , which is a weakened version of the conclusion we seek to prove. Nonetheless, from here we have

g ( 2 x ) = g ( 2 h ( y ) ) = g ( h ( 2 y ) ) = 2 y = 2 g ( x ) g(2x)=g(2h(y))=g(h(2y))=2y=2g(x) as required.

If someone can complete this argument, it would be much appreciated.


Edit: Thank you to Andrew Hayes and Thomas Ponweiser for continuing my investigation into this problem, eventually leading to the problem being edited.

Eren Ozturk
Apr 15, 2018

Please could someone tell me if this is adequate: g ( x ) = x + f ( x + f ( x + f ( . . . ) ) ) g(x)=x+f(x+f(x+f(...)))

= x + f ( g ( x ) ) =x+f(g(x))

2 g ( x ) = 2 x + 2 f ( g ( x ) ) 2g(x)=2x+2f(g(x))

since: g ( 2 x ) = 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( 2 x + f ( 2 x . . . ) ) ) g(2x)=2x+f(2x+f(2x+f(2x...)))

= 2 x + 2 f ( x + f ( x + f ( x + f ( . . . ) ) ) =2x+2f(x+f(x+f(x+f(...)))

= 2 x + 2 f ( g ( x ) ) =2x+2f(g(x))

2 g ( x ) = g ( 2 x ) 2g(x)=g(2x)

I think your interpretation of the equation, i.e. g ( x ) = x + f ( g ( x ) ) g(x) = x + f(g(x)) is correct. Howerver, I think the dots-notation is misleading you (just like many others here) to some kind of circular conclusion.

The second equality after your expansion of g ( 2 x ) g(2x) is basically saying 2 x + f ( g ( 2 x ) ) = 2 x + 2 f ( g ( x ) ) 2x+f(g(2x))=2x+2f(g(x)) , i.e. you are implicitly assuming that you can pull the 2 2 out of f ( g ( 2 x ) ) f(g(2x)) , which is not yet shown.

Actually I think there are pairs of functions f f and g g which fulfill the problem's requirements, but violate g ( 2 x ) = 2 g ( x ) g(2x)=2g(x) . If you are interested, you may have a look in the reports section of this problem. Any feedback is appreciated!

Thomas Ponweiser - 3 years ago
Sean McCloskey
Apr 11, 2018

g(x) = x + f(x + f(x + f(...)))

g(x) = x + f(g(x))

2g(x) = 2 (x + f(g(x)))

2g(x) = 2x + 2f(g(x))

2g(x) = 2x + f(2g(x))

2g(x) = 2x + f(2x + f(2g(x)))

2g(x) = 2x + f(2x + f(2x + ....)) = g(2x)

The sequence terminates, right? For then it is a trivial exercise in induction.

I don't believe the sequence necessarily terminates.

Jordan Cahn - 3 years, 2 months ago

0 pending reports

×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...