Lazy Liz divide and conquer

Algebra Level 4

Division of fractions can sometimes be tricky. Lazy Liz thinks that

a b ÷ c d = a ÷ c b ÷ d , \frac{ a } { b} \div \frac{c}{d} = \frac { a \div c } { b \div d },

because "you should just divide the numerator and the denominator". Can you tell her, how many ordered quadruples of integers ( a , b , c , d ) (a,b,c,d) are there, such that each term is between 1 and 5 (inclusive), and

a b ÷ c d = a ÷ c b ÷ d ? \frac{ a } { b} \div \frac{c}{d} = \frac { a \div c } { b \div d }?


The answer is 625.

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15 solutions

Anthony J.
Dec 8, 2013

a b ÷ c d = a b × d c = a × d b × c \frac{a}{b} \div \frac{c}{d}= \frac{a}{b} \times \frac{d}{c} =\frac{a \times d}{b \times c} by normal division. We can take this further, though. We first rearrange the terms to get a × d c × b \frac{a \times d}{c \times b} Next, we split the multiplications to get a c × d b \frac{a}{c} \times \frac{d}{b} Rewriting a c \dfrac{a}{c} as a ÷ c a \div c , we get ( a ÷ c ) × d b (a \div c) \times \frac{d}{b} rewriting d b \dfrac{d}{b} as 1 b d \dfrac{1}{\frac{b}{d}} gives ( a ÷ c ) × 1 b d (a \div c) \times \frac{1}{ \frac{b}{d}}

Finally, rewriting b d \frac{b}{d} as 1 b ÷ d \dfrac{1}{b \div d} This gives a ÷ c b ÷ d . \frac{ a \div c}{ b \div d} . Thus, Lazy Liz's division is correct, so all that remains is counting the number of ways we can find the ordered quadruples without restrictions. This can be counted as 5 × 5 × 5 × 5 = 625 5 \times 5 \times 5 \times 5= \boxed{625}

what is quadruples?

SaiRa Maryum - 7 years, 6 months ago

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(*are quadruples.) A set of four numbers.

Neelansh Bute - 7 years, 6 months ago

Good manipulation, but you messed up in your solution. After \begin{align} (a \div c) \times \frac{d}{b} \end{align}

You should have continued as follows

\begin{align} (a \div c) \times \frac{1}{\frac{b}{d}} &= (a \div c) \times \frac{1}{b \div d} = \frac{a \div c}{b \div d} \end{align}

Matt L - 7 years, 6 months ago

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Thanks pointing out my error. Do you have any advice on preventing these types of mistakes while writing them? Also, is it possible to edit submitted solutions on brilliant?

Anthony J. - 7 years, 6 months ago

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I've updated your post. Currently, you do not have the ability to edit submitted solutions.

To prevent these types of mistakes, you could introduce proper spacing in your Latex writeup (which was just a direct chunk). This makes it hard to read and understand, and hence you would be unlikely to spot any mistakes.

Also, look through the preview as if it was someone else's solution that you were trying to understand. Question the validity of each step.

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years, 6 months ago

Wait... how long did it take you to figure this out? Also, what how did you come up with the different manipulations, it took me so much time to actually solve the problem?

Neelansh Bute - 7 years, 6 months ago

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The first thing that came to mind while reading this problem was, literally, "OMG". The fact that there are anywhere between 1 and 625 possible solutions kind of scared me,so I decided that it would be best if I tried to simplify the problem, which led to me figuring out the identity. And the fact that this seemed so familiar...

Anthony J. - 7 years, 6 months ago

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I think I remember it being in AoPS Volume 1, pg 31...

Neelansh Bute - 7 years, 6 months ago

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@Neelansh Bute No, I mean the form of liz's claim.

Anthony J. - 7 years, 6 months ago

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@Anthony J. Oh...

Neelansh Bute - 7 years, 6 months ago

When I first saw the equation, I just simplified the term on the right and discovered that the two sides were equal....

Josh Kolenbrander - 7 years, 6 months ago

why 5X5X5X5 and not 5X4X3X2 as a is not equal to b which inturn is not equal to c and c is again not equal to d. where am i going wrong ?

Manish Kaul - 7 years, 6 months ago

Just a while ago, I have submitted all my 3 answers and I got it all wrong. I dont understand why the answer is 625 not 620 though, because apparantly, (1,1,1,1),(2,2,2,2),etc are considered as same set of numbers. So surely, after doing 5^4, you will still need to minus the 5 possiblities, right? This is really puzzling me, please hepl!

Adrian Wong - 7 years, 6 months ago

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Could you please elaborate?

Neelansh Bute - 7 years, 6 months ago

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Well, im asking about the number of possible ordered 4-tuples. I understand how you find that by 5X5X5X5, but I think it's not completely right because sets like (1,1,1,1) and (2,2,2,2) will be counted 4 times in the 5^4 even though they are regarded as a same solution, right?

Adrian Wong - 7 years, 6 months ago

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@Adrian Wong Not really. Whem you get 5^4, you're doing it because there are 5 possibilities for each number. You don't count it 4 times, you first choose the first number, then the second, then the third and then the last. If you started choosing, say, the third, then first, second, and last, you would have counted it again, but because you only choose your numbers in one order, you only count that case once.

Ariel Garcia Moran - 7 years, 6 months ago

If it isn't mentioned that we can't use the the integer more than once, then is it an indicator that we can use the integer more than once? Because I was restricting the use of integers to just one i.e. 5×4×3×2.

Ayesha Z - 7 years, 6 months ago

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Yes, yes it is.

Neelansh Bute - 7 years, 6 months ago
Limao Luo
Dec 14, 2013

Lazy Liz is correct, so a , b , c , d a, b, c, d can all take on any of the values, giving 5 4 = 625 5^4=\boxed{625} possibilities.

Jamie Coombes
Dec 9, 2013

Everything about this question is designed to mislead. I spent a fair bit of time puzzling over many counterexamples before I realised.

"Standard" division is taught in primary schools as "turn the second fraction over and multiply". We are really multiplying both fractions by the multiplicative inverse of the second fraction but the primary school definition will be fine for us.

a b ÷ c d = a b × d c = a d b c \frac{a}{b} \div \frac{c}{d} = \frac{a}{b} \times \frac{d}{c} = \frac{ad}{bc}

Now Liz wants to divide the two fractions like this instead:

a b ÷ c d = a ÷ c b ÷ d = a c ÷ b d \frac{a}{b} \div \frac{c}{d} = \frac{a \div c}{b \div d} = \frac{a}{c} \div \frac{b}{d}

Inverting the second fraction and multiplying gives:

a c ÷ b d = a c × d b = a d c b \frac{a}{c} \div \frac{b}{d} = \frac{a}{c} \times \frac{d}{b} = \frac{ad}{cb}

Now multiplication is commutative so:

a d b c = a d c b \frac{ad}{bc} = \frac{ad}{cb}

Although it takes more effort to compute, Liz' method always works. The number of correct values is just 5 4 5^{4} or 625 625 using the rule of product.

The most valuable lesson from this question is that Brilliant question setters are horrible people, because divide and conquer is never used, because they marginalize Liz' views and because they create untrue stereotypes. For shame!

Hey! We are not horrible people!

This is part of a series of questions about common mistakes of arithmetic that people make. I added this one as it (initially) seems to not be true, but turns out that it is!

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years, 6 months ago

Just a while ago, I have submitted all my 3 answers and I got it all wrong. I dont understand why the answer is 625 not 620 though, because apparantly, (1,1,1,1),(2,2,2,2),etc are considered as same set of numbers. So surely, after doing 5^4, you will still need to minus the 5 possiblities, right? This is really puzzling me, please hepl!

Adrian Wong - 7 years, 6 months ago

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I don't get you.

A Former Brilliant Member - 7 years, 6 months ago

Can you clarify whether you are asking a question about whether Liz' method works when a=b=c=d, or whether you are asking a question about how to find the number of all possible ordered 4-tuples?

Jamie Coombes - 7 years, 6 months ago

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Well, im asking about the number of possible ordered 4-tuples. I understand how you find that by 5X5X5X5, but I think it's not completely right because sets like (1,1,1,1) and (2,2,2,2) will be counted 4 times in the 5^4 even though they are regarded as a same solution, right?

Adrian Wong - 7 years, 6 months ago

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@Adrian Wong Short answer: No, each set is counted once. Even (1,1,1,1) etc.

Longer answer: To show you why, consider a simpler problem. How many sets of ordered tuples (a,b) are there with elements 1 to 5 inclusive.

Well, this many...

(5,1)(5,2)(5,3)(5,4)(5,5)

(4,1)(4,2)(4,3)(4,4)(4,5)

(3,1)(3,2)(3,3)(3,4)(3,5)

(2,1)(2,2)(2,3)(2,4)(2,5)

(1,1)(1,2)(1,3)(1,4)(1,5)

Can you see that there are 5 ways to make the first choice (5 rows in the square of solutions above),

There are 5 ways to make the second choice (5 columns in the square of solutions above)

so there are 5 × 5 = 25 5 \times 5 = 25 total solutions.

Notice that (1,1) (2,2) etc. has only been included once.

Here's how Brilliant explains it... http://brilliant.org/assessment/techniques-trainer/rule-of-sum-rule-of-product/

Jamie Coombes - 7 years, 6 months ago
Romeo Gomez
Dec 10, 2013

let's do some algebra a b ÷ c d = a b c d = a d b d , \frac{a}{b} \div \frac{c}{d} =\frac{\frac{a}{b}}{\frac{c}{d} }=\frac{ad}{bd}, on the other hand
a ÷ c b ÷ d = a c b d = a d b d , \frac{a\div c}{b\div d}=\frac{\frac{a}{c}}{\frac{b}{d}} =\frac{ad}{bd}, so a b ÷ c d = a ÷ c b ÷ d . \frac{a}{b} \div \frac{c}{d} =\frac{a\div c}{b\div d}. Hence each integer has the posibility of been 1,2,3,4,5 so each one has 5 posibilities 5 × 5 × 5 × 5 × 5 = 625 5\times 5 \times 5 \times 5 \times 5 =\boxed{625}

This one looks tricky, but it's still right! If you don't trust me, I'll prove it for you.

a b ÷ c d \frac{a}{b} \div \frac{c}{d}

= a b × d c = \frac{a}{b} \times \frac{d}{c}

= a d b c = \frac{ad}{bc}

Multiply by 1 c d \frac{1}{cd} on num. and denom. we get...

= a 1 c b 1 d = \frac{a\frac{1}{c}}{b\frac{1}{d}}

= a ÷ c b ÷ d = \frac{a \div c}{b \div d} . ~~~

If all numbers satisfy this equation (not really an equation.), then the number of quadruples ( a , b , c , d ) = 5 × 5 × 5 × 5 = 5 4 = 625 (a,b,c,d) = 5\times 5\times 5\times 5 = 5^{4} = \boxed{625} ~~~

Benjamin Kan
Dec 11, 2013

By simplifying both sides into one fraction, we get a d b c \frac{ad}{bc} on both sides. This means that no matter what numbers there are, the stated equation works. Because a, b, c, and d must all be an integer 1 thorough 5, there are 5 choices for a, 5 choices for b, etc. We multiply all of the choices to get: 5 5 5 5 = 625 5\cdot5\cdot5\cdot5=\boxed{625} different ordered quadruples of integers between 1 and 5 inclusive that satisfy this condition.

Actually, Lazy Liz's thinking is correct! :D

a b ÷ c d = a b × d c \frac{a}{b}\div\frac{c}{d}=\frac{a}{b}\times\frac{d}{c} = a c × d b =\frac{a}{c}\times\frac{d}{b} = a ÷ c b ÷ d =\frac{a\div c}{b\div d}

The integers a , b , c , d a,b,c,d are between 1 1 and 5 5 (inclusive), so each of the integers have 5 options.

There are 4 4 integers.Therefore the answer is 5 4 = 625 5^4=\boxed{625}

Arpit Agarwal
Dec 13, 2013

the given condition is true for all a,b,c,d not equals to zero. a can be chosen in 5 ways (1or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5) similarly b, c, d can be chosen in five ways each therefore, number of ordered pairs=5 5 5*5=625 Ans

Sean Carter
Dec 11, 2013

The key to solving this is really just realizing... Lazy Liz isn't actually wrong.

Give it a try yourself: (a/b) / (c/d) and (a/c) / (b/d)

If you try simplifying both, you get an interesting result:

(a/b)/(c/d) is the same as a/(bc/d), which is the same as ad/bc. Or:

(a/b)/(c/d) = a/(bc/d) = (ad)/(bc)

So now try it with the other one:

(a/c) / (b/d) = a/(bc/d) = ad/bc

So they both come out to ad/bc. This means the statement at the bottom of our equation is actually:

ad/bc = ad/bc

Which is true for -all- quadruples of integers. That means, you simply need to multiply out the number of possible integers: there's five possible a values, five possible b values, five possible c values, and five possible d values. 5 * 5 * 5 * 5 = 625. Viola!

Lady Liz's idea is correct to any values of a,b,c,d between 1 and 5 inclusive. Proof:

a b / c d = a b × d c = a c × d b = a c / b d = a / c b / d \frac{a}{b} / \frac{c}{d} = \frac{a}{b} \times \frac{d}{c} = \frac{a}{c} \times \frac{d}{b} = \frac{a}{c} / \frac{b}{d} = \frac{a / c}{b / d}

Because this is generally true for every case of values of a,b,c,d in range 1 to 5, each term can be any of the integers from 1 to 5.

Now, for a chosen value of a, there are 5 possible values for b. Hence the total possible value combinations of a and b are: 5 × 5 = 25 5 \times 5 = 25

Similarly, for a fixed value of a and b, there are 5 possible values for c, hence the total possible combinations of a, b and c are: 25 × 5 = 125 25 \times 5 = 125

From there, we can work out the answer to the problem, which is the number of total possible combinations of all a,b,c and d: 125 × 5 = 625 125 \times 5 = 625

Ben Frankel
Dec 10, 2013

The very first thing that we should do to solve this problem, is to simplify both sides of the equation so that it will be easier to understand.

a b ÷ c d = a ÷ c b ÷ d \frac{a}{b} \div \frac{c}{d} = \frac{a \div c}{b \div d}

We will start with the LHS (left-hand side). Note that division by a fraction is the same as multiplication by the reciprocal of a fraction, so we can simplify as follows:

a b ÷ c d = a b × d c = a d b c \frac{a}{b} \div \frac{c}{d} = \frac{a}{b} \times \frac{d}{c} = \frac{ad}{bc}

The RHS (right-hand side) can be simplified as well, if we multiply the numerator and the denominator of the fraction by c d cd to cancel out the division.

a ÷ c b ÷ d = c d ( a ÷ c ) c d ( b ÷ d ) = a d b c \frac{a \div c}{b \div d} = \frac{cd(a \div c)}{cd(b \div d)} = \frac{ad}{bc}

Notice that the left hand side and the right hand side are both a d b c \frac{ad}{bc} ! Thus, all ( a , b , c , d ) (a, b, c, d) between 1 and 5 (inclusive) satisfy the given equation.

Now we must find the amount of distinct ( a , b , c , d ) (a, b, c, d) s. The first variable, a a , can take 5 different values (1 to 5), and so can b , c , b, c, and d d . To find the total amount of possibilities, we can multiply the individual possibilities of each variable. That is 5 4 = 625 5^4 = \fbox{625} .

Here , both LHS and RHS are already equal so a,b,c and d can take all values that means 1,2,3,4 and 5. So, total no.s of quadruples are 5^{4}=625.

Finn Hulse
Jan 20, 2014

The whole problem is a trick! Lazy Liz isn't lazy as a matter of fact! She actually is just dividing in a little more of a complicated way! But dividing none the less! Therefore any quadruples will work! So the answer is 5 5 5*5, which is 625.

I meant to say 5 5 5*5.

Finn Hulse - 7 years, 4 months ago

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I MEANT to say 5 times 5 times 5 times 5. Putting "*"s around a number italicizes it.

Finn Hulse - 7 years, 4 months ago

Lazy Liz has definitely done the right thing. Because the operation is true for all real numbers. And in this case, the number is limited for only integer from 1 to 5, hence there are 5 × 5 × 5 × 5 = 625 5 \times 5 \times 5 \times 5 =625 integers.

Sial!? Aku pikir maksudnya quadruple dengan integer yang berbeda, jadi aku jawabnya 5 P 4 = 120 _5P_4 = 120 . Ckckck...

Tunk-Fey Ariawan - 7 years, 4 months ago
Rik Ghosh
Dec 12, 2013

We observe that a/b÷c/d is equal to ad/bc

And (a÷c)/(b÷d) is also equal to ad/bc

Hence the given condition holds for any value except b=c=d=0

Therefore total number of cases are 5 * 5 * 5 * 5 = 625 as interval is [1,5]

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