If you have already seen this then it's okay, if not then see this.
Copper pipe and magnet falling in it
I recently saw this video and got interested in analysing the situation and I took a simplistic situation.
Assume a infinitely long copper tube which is in the shape of a right uniform hollow cylinder with inside radius r 1 , outer radius r 2 .
A magnet of magnetic moment M is dropped from a point on the axis of the cylinder with the magnetic moment vector( or you may interpret it as north south line) being along the axis of the cylinder.
If the terminal velocity of the magnet is given by :
v T = f M h μ 0 i a b m c g d ρ e ( r 1 − j − r 2 − j 1 )
Find a + b + c + d + e + f + h + i + j .
Details and assumptions :
1) m = Mass of magnet, g = Acceleration due to gravity, M = Magnetic moment ,
ρ =Resistivity of copper(you can also call it specific resistance), μ 0 = Permeability of vacuum.
2) a , b , c , d , e , f , g , h , i are positive integers all less than 2 0 where a is a prime integer, a , f are co- prime integers.
3) Assume the magnet to be a point dipole with magnetic moment M and pointing along the axis of the cylinder as shown in the figure.
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I will try to find out a non-elementary problem for you :)
Just joking.
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elementary means that you know what to do when you see it, not that it was easy, also i found it easy as i had already analysed this partly before when i saw the video months ago :)
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I really find it interesting to analyze situations that we see in real life mathematically. Isn't it.
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@Ronak Agarwal – yes , it is fun, i feel so powerful when i do that , few people get to feel the power
But yes, i have much to learn, presently all i can do is to form a differential equation for most problems , but only able to solve them in special cases i need to learn fourier series and related stuff for that , we will get time for such things after 24 i suppose
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@Mvs Saketh – I too haven't learnt about fourier series and all, but seriously I still can't understand what a researcher actually does and how to become a succesful researcher.
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@Ronak Agarwal – Hey Ronak :) ...Great problem! I hadn't thought of analyzing this phenomenon quantitatively. Thanks for posting it. I also did it the way Saketh has outlined, but I must say that it took a while.
I guess the people at IISC might be able to guide us better on the 21st as I am also curious to know what exactly research entails.
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@Shashwat Shukla – 21st of may was not very comfortable for me hence I sent an email to the dean of IISC to give another date for counselling and they allowed me to attend the counseling in July first week hence I am not attending the counseling on 21st. @Shashwat Shukla
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@Ronak Agarwal – Damn! We can do that?! I already booked the tickets and all...Well that's just too bad. I was looking forward to meeting you as well.
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@Shashwat Shukla – Banglore is very near for you, from jaipur it is very difficult to make such arrangements.
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@Ronak Agarwal – I understand :)...Btw, how's prep for JEE going? What are you doing in these last few days? Revising concepts and things like inorganic or perhaps solving more papers?
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@Shashwat Shukla – @Shashwat Shukla - according to me
JEE advanced 2013 had all subjects broadly easy, nothing too hard in physics or maths only one (which of the following aromatic) question was reasonabl y hard in chemistry, other than that , even that was easy
in 2014, maths and physics were the same as before, though physics became slightly more calculative , and chemistry was however relatively harder (in the sense, more exotic problems were there)
Do you agree with my views? (i want to know so as to check my level of prep)
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@Mvs Saketh – I agree with you more or less on the difficulty of the problems:all the questions of physics and math are pretty easy but some of them in the 2014 paper were so lengthy that I doubt if I would be able to complete the paper. Also, 10 multi-correct questions and 10 numericals is a horrible pattern and I really hope that our paper does not have such a mark distribution.
In chemistry, there are some problems like the one you mentioned that I find hard(color of sulphides etc.) and I am very scared of these 'exotic' problems.
In fact, there was a considerable increase in difficulty in the 2013 paper as compared to 2012, and 2014 was harder than 2013 even. I really hope this isn't a trend.
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@Shashwat Shukla – yes, it is a time taking pattern, but that wont affect as badly as some chem integer type problems, thanks for telling though, it provides some relief :)
@Ronak Agarwal – @Ronak Agarwal - well as far as i have seen in the cosmos series, all he does is surround himself with boards with physics all day (for people like einstein or maxwell or newton) or surround with experiments (for Faraday), But ofcourse, to get money they did other stuff like teaching and shit
yeah, do try to find that out when u guys attend counselling
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@Mvs Saketh – So Mvs do you expect to get selected in second round of counseling.
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@Ronak Agarwal – i have no idea, all i know is that i must give JEE advanced as well as possible, get above cutoff, and even better much above it, i am scared, but i must control myself since my worries should not spoil my advanced and NEST exam
Ya.A past model of an APHO question.The approach makes use of the following. 1)First find the magnetic field due to a dipole(we don't want the exact form but we need the component parallel to the dipole axis) 2)Once we get the field we are ready to calculate the flux through a thin ring of width d r and height d y .The magnet being at a distance y from its centre.3)Find its resistance and noe from faradays law the current can be found out.Once we have the current we may find the force on the magnet.4)For calculating the force we know the magnetic field produced by a current carrying loop.So the force is given by ( f = M d B / d y ) .Once we have the force on this small part we perform a double integration this looks of the sort of d ( d F ) = ( 9 / 8 ) ( M 2 U 2 v / π p ) ∫ ∫ r 3 y 2 d r d y / ( r 2 + y 2 ) 5 .where the r varies from r 1 t o r 2 and y from -infinite to +infinite.Once we have got the force equate with the weight to get the velocity v.The integral involving r can be easily found out but the one using y needs to be computed carefully. So the final and came to be ( 2 ( 1 0 ) / 1 5 ) ( m g p / M 2 U 2 ) 1 / ( r 1 − 3 − r 2 − 3 ) = v Note that p denoted the magnetic moment and U denotes the permeability of vacuum.
Nothing difficult here but need to have patience to do the messy stuffs and not so good integrals☺☺
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plz tell how r u so intelligent ?
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And how did you judge so???Not to boast of but I knew what to do as I already had solved the APHO one
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@Spandan Senapati – do you know some other intelligent guys out there(on brilliant ) who can beat you or maybe equal u in +1 to +2 ? i can't think of someone that means u r really great.
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@Hiroto Kun – Arey I am not great.What made you think so.and i am moving to +2.
i would like to know it too....................:P
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@A Former Brilliant Member – Bhai kal itna sunaya tha phir aaj suru.....Chalo koi nahin...
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@Spandan Senapati – aaj math ka ppr h 10:30 bje chakar aa rhe h :'|
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@A Former Brilliant Member – Don't panic so much...Stay calm and answers will come automatically...All the best.
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@Spandan Senapati – thnx buddy , u were right ! mera ppr acha hua :) you really are great ! @Spandan Senapati
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@A Former Brilliant Member – tera b'day tha kya ? kl ?
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@A Former Brilliant Member – No mine is in august..
nicely done +1
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Thanks....This was a problem(full)in APHO(2012-13 most probably)in India...I evaluated the first of the 2 definite integrals and next had no patience so put the next one in wolfram alpha.Although that wasn't much difficult
Also don't forget to upvote..Lol☺☺I fulfilled your wish(50 followers)
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thnku-thnku yaar.................... i already upvoted .... the only 1 upvote is mine .
While the consideration of flux and force has certainly helped as an understandable direct approach towards solving the problem, nevertheless, this question has got me thinking of using an alternative approach of employing the idea of energy conservation. In this aspect, I found a suitable research analysis that provides such a viewpoint which I think it is really elegant, considering the minimal integrals we would need to work through compared to our considerations of force and flux concepts. So, do take a look.
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Elementary problem but far too long to type out solution, i might do that after jee advanced
But the method is to consider a thin ring, find the flux through it, and then differentiate it, and then equate it to iR where i is the small amount of current that flows through it (the eddy current ) and R is the pretty big resistance of the thin ring
( R = d r d z ρ 2 π r
now u have the i that flows through it
now you find the force upon it (only the component of field in the plane of ring will contribute to force, once found , integrate throught from (r1 till r2) and then from (- to + infinity) to get total force,
now use newtons third law to claim the reverse, and then ofcourse equate to mg
The only trouble in the analsys is how to find the magnetic field in a simple fashion, because represting B in terms or 'r' and θ is useless here
so rather use the magnetic potential which is
4 π r 2 μ M c o s ( θ ) = 4 π ( x 2 + y 2 ) 3 / 2 μ M x
and partial differentiate with respect to x and y to find the components as needed
i dont suppose theres a better way? but how did you do it @Ronak Agarwal
And yes i saw that video, seen it before, amazing one, there is more however, checkout Messeiner effect