Many Radicals!

Algebra Level 5

Let S n S_n be the set of all the numbers of the form ϵ n 3 + ϵ n 1 3 + . . . + ϵ 2 3 + ϵ 1 3 \epsilon_n\sqrt{3+\epsilon_{n-1}\sqrt{3+...+\epsilon_2\sqrt{3+\epsilon_1 \sqrt{3}}}} where the number of radicals is an arbitrary non-negative integer number n n and ϵ k = ± 1 \epsilon_k=\pm 1 for any non-negative integer k k less than or equal to n , n, and S = n = 1 S n . S=\cup_{n=1}^{\infty}S_n. Find the largest positive real number c c such that x > c |x|>c for all x S . x \in S. Then enter 1000000 c \lfloor 1000000 c\rfloor as your answer. If c c does not exist, then enter 0. Justify your answer.


The answer is 834999.

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2 solutions

Chris Lewis
Jan 12, 2021

Let's look at the related problem of finding y = sup S y=\sup S . It's easy to see that, for any given n n , the largest possible number of this type is found when all ϵ k \epsilon_k are + 1 +1 , that is y n = 3 + 3 + 3 + + 3 y_n=\sqrt{3+\sqrt{3+\sqrt{3+\cdots +\sqrt3}}} (where the expression contains n n 3 3 s). As ever, we have to be cautious around convergence. To make this sequence easier to handle, note that y 1 = 3 y_1=\sqrt3 and y n + 1 = 3 + y n y_{n+1}=\sqrt{3+y_n}

y n y_n is always positive. Define f ( t ) = 3 + t f(t)=\sqrt{3+t} ; then f ( t ) f(t) has a fixed point at t c = 1 2 + 13 2 t_c=\frac12 +\frac{\sqrt{13}}{2} . Since f ( t c ) < 1 |f'(t_c)|<1 , this is an attracting fixed point; in other words, whatever positive start value is chosen for y 0 y_0 , the limit as n n \to \infty of y n y_n will always be t c t_c .

So y = sup S = t c y=\sup S=t_c .

To solve the actual problem, note that the smallest (positive) number we can possibly make for a given n n has the form x n = 3 3 + 3 + + 3 x_n=\sqrt{3{\color{#D61F06}-}\sqrt{3+\sqrt{3+\cdots+\sqrt3}}} (again with n n 3 3 s in the expression). In the limit, this is just x = 3 t c x=\sqrt{3-t_c} which works out to be x = 1 2 ( 5 13 ) = 0. 834999 6 x=\sqrt{\frac12 \left(5-\sqrt{13} \right)} =0. {\color{#D61F06} 834999} 6\ldots

It should be 1 2 ( 5 13 ) \sqrt{\frac{1}{2}(5 - \sqrt{13})} in the last line

Krutarth Patel - 4 months, 2 weeks ago

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Thank you, corrected now.

Chris Lewis - 4 months, 2 weeks ago
Arturo Presa
Jan 12, 2021

We can introduce the following notation x n ( ϵ 1 , ϵ 2 , . . . , ϵ n ) = ϵ n 3 + ϵ n 1 3 + . . . + ϵ 2 3 + ϵ 1 3 , ( ) x_n(\epsilon_1, \epsilon_2,..., \epsilon_n)=\epsilon_n \sqrt{3+\epsilon_{n-1} \sqrt{3+...+\epsilon_2 \sqrt{3+\epsilon_1 \sqrt{3}}}}, \;\;\;\;\;\;\;(*) for any non-negative integer number n , n, and any finite sequence ( ϵ k ) 1 k n , (\epsilon_k)_{1\leq k \leq n}, where ϵ k = ± 1 \epsilon_k=\pm 1 for any integer k satisfying 1 k n . 1\leq k\leq n. Of course, S S is the set of all possible numbers of form (*). It easy to prove by Mathematical Induction that all these number are real. We are going to use also the following notation y n = x n ( 1 , 1 , 1 , . . . , 1 ) , y_n=x_n(1,1,1,...,1), where the last expression contains n n ones. We are going to divide the proof into three parts.

Part 1. To prove that the sequence y n y_n has the limit r = 1 + 13 2 r=\frac{1+\sqrt{13}}{2} and y n < r y_n <r for any non-negative integer n . n.

We can see that y n + 1 2 = 3 + y n , y_{n+1}^2= 3+y_{n}, and using mathematical induction and this recursion, we can prove that the sequence ( y n ) (y_n) is increasing and is bounded above by the number r . r. Since this sequence is increasing, upper-bounded and all its members are positive, then it has positive limit l l and from the recursion (taking limits on both sides) we obtain that l l satisfies the equation l 2 = 3 + l , l^2=3+l, therefore l = 1 ± 13 2 . l=\frac{1\pm \sqrt{13}}{2}. When you picked the negative sign in front of the radical you get a negative value that cannot happen, therefore, l = 1 + 13 2 = r . l=\frac{1+ \sqrt{13}}{2}=r. Of course, it is clear that as the sequence ( y n ) (y_n) is increasing and its limit is r , r, then y n < r y_n<r for all values of n . n.

Part 2. To prove that x n ( ϵ 1 , . . . , ϵ n ) y n |x_n(\epsilon_1,..., \epsilon_n)|\leq y_n for all non-negative integer n . n.

This is another thing that is easy to prove by Mathematical Induction and, of course, equality is reached when ϵ k = 1 \epsilon_k=1 for any k k .

Part 3. To prove that the largest positive number positive integer c c such that x > c |x|>c for all x S x\in S is 3 r . \sqrt{3-r}.

Let n n be whatever integer number such that n 1. n\geq 1. If n = 1 n=1 then x 1 ( ϵ 1 ) = y 1 = 3 > c |x_1(\epsilon_1)|=y_1=\sqrt{3}> c If n > 1 , n>1, then x n ( ϵ 1 , . . . , ϵ n ) = 3 + x n 1 ( ϵ 1 , . . , ϵ n 1 ) 3 x n 1 ( ϵ 1 , . . , ϵ n 1 ) . ( ) |x_n(\epsilon_1,..., \epsilon_n)|=\sqrt{3+x_{n-1}(\epsilon_1,..,\epsilon_{n-1})}\geq \sqrt{3-|x_{n-1}(\epsilon_1,..,\epsilon_{n-1})|}.\;\;\;\;\;\;\;(**) Using Part 2 , and Part 1 , we have that x n 1 ( ϵ 1 , . . , ϵ n 1 ) y n 1 < r |x_{n-1}(\epsilon_1,..,\epsilon_{n-1})|\leq y_{n-1}< r Then 3 x n 1 ( ϵ 1 , . . , ϵ n 1 ) > 3 r , \sqrt{3-|x_{n-1}(\epsilon_1,..,\epsilon_{n-1})|}>\sqrt{3- r}, and this together with (**) implies that x n > 3 r = c . |x_n|>\sqrt{3-r}=c. To see that 3 r \sqrt{3-r} is the largest positive number satisfying the previous inequality it is enough to see that the numbers 3 y n \sqrt{3-y_n} belong to S and lim n 3 y n = 3 r = c . \lim_{n \rightarrow \infty} \sqrt{3-y_n}=\sqrt{3-r}=c.

Then c = 3 r = 3 1 + 13 2 . c= \sqrt{3-r}=\sqrt{3-\frac{1+\sqrt{13}}{2}}. Then the answer to this problem is 834999 . \boxed{834999}.

Ha, snap! You beat me to it. Our solutions are slightly different so I'll leave mine up. Can we get all numbers in the interval?

Chris Lewis - 5 months ago

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Thank you, Chris! What do you mean by the numbers in the interval?

Arturo Presa - 5 months ago

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Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. I mean is the set S S precisely the interval [ c , r ] [c,r] (using your notation)? If we choose any value u u in that interval, is there a corresponding element of S S ? Is there an algorithm to find that element?

By the way, since S S is the union of all (infinitely many) S n S_n , isn't it correct to say c c is in S S ?

Chris Lewis - 5 months ago

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@Chris Lewis I mean any solution corresponds to a root in an integer coefficient polynomial (repeatedly square are subtract 3) so numbers like pi are impossible(transcendental)

Razzi Masroor - 4 months ago

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@Razzi Masroor You are right!

Arturo Presa - 3 months, 1 week ago

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@Arturo Presa Yes! You are right. Thanks!

What I hadn't noticed was that we have a countable union of countable sets, so there are certainly real numbers that can't be represented.

Chris Lewis - 3 months, 1 week ago

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