Stones, Up and Down

From an elevated point A A , a stone is projected vertically upwards. When the stone reaches a distance h h below A A , its velocity is double of what it was at a height h h above A A . If the greatest height attained by the stone is p h q \frac{ph}{q} , where p p and q q are coprime positive integers, find p + q p+q .


The answer is 8.

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5 solutions

Nihar Mahajan
Apr 14, 2016

When the stone was h h above A, we can write: v 2 = u 2 2 g h 4 v 2 = 4 u 2 8 g h ( 1 ) v^2=u^2-2gh \implies 4v^2=4u^2-8gh \dots (1) .When the stone was h h below A we can write 4 v 2 = u 2 + 2 g h ( 2 ) 4v^2=u^2+2gh \dots (2) . Eliminating 4 v 2 4v^2 from both the equations we have: 3 u 2 10 g h = 0 u 2 = 10 g h 3 3u^2-10gh=0 \implies u^2=\dfrac{10gh}{3} . We also know h m a x = u 2 2 g = 10 g h 6 g = 5 h 3 h_{max}=\dfrac{u^2}{2g}=\dfrac{10gh}{6g}=\dfrac{5h}{3} giving p + q = 5 + 3 = 8 p+q=5+3=\boxed{8} .

Moderator note:

Correct application of the formulas.

To me, considering the conservation of energy seems more natural / faster.

Shorter and better ;)

Swapnil Das - 5 years, 2 months ago

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It was a very cute problem :) Post more problems on Physics :)

Nihar Mahajan - 5 years, 2 months ago

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Lol thanks. Do you want cute or thunderstorm problems?

Swapnil Das - 5 years, 2 months ago

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@Swapnil Das May be both :P

Nihar Mahajan - 5 years, 2 months ago

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@Nihar Mahajan Lol. Will it be fine, if the problem is from Electricity and Magnetism section? And please come to hangouts.

Swapnil Das - 5 years, 2 months ago

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@Swapnil Das It will be fine but post some more CM problems .. this was a gd one:))

Satyabrata Dash - 5 years, 2 months ago

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@Satyabrata Dash Thanks :) :)

Swapnil Das - 5 years, 2 months ago

nice solution Nihar

Mardokay Mosazghi - 5 years, 2 months ago
Dylan Young
Apr 16, 2016

Since the kinetic energy of a projectile is T = 1 2 m v 2 T = \frac{1}{2}mv^{2} , we know that the stone has four times as much kinetic energy at a distance h h below A A as it does at a distance h h above A A . These two points have a height difference of 2 h 2h , so an energy balance gives us T h i g h + 2 m g h = T l o w = 4 T h i g h T_{high} + 2mgh = T_{low} = 4T_{high} , or T h i g h = 2 3 m g h T_{high} = \frac{2}{3}mgh . Since the stone reaches its greatest height when all its kinetic energy is converted to gravitational potential energy, this point must be 2 3 h \frac{2}{3}h higher than the point h h above A A , for a total height of 5 h 3 \frac{5h}{3} . Thus the answer is p + q = 5 + 3 = 8 p + q = 5 + 3 = \boxed{8} .

Using conservation of energy seems to be the simplest approach to this problem. It was the first one that I thought of, and I didn't understand why people were using the dynamics equations.

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 2 months ago

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I used integration and linear algebra --- lol :D

Syed Baqir - 5 years, 1 month ago

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That's called using a nuclear bomb to kill a mosquito.

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 1 month ago

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@Calvin Lin Exactly :D

Syed Baqir - 5 years, 1 month ago

@Calvin Lin Anyways, it is killed :P

People tend prefer 1D Kinematics equations more than Dynamics.

Swapnil Das - 5 years, 1 month ago

Let the initial upward speed of the stone be u u . Then the height of the stone relative to A A at time t t is

y = u t g 2 t 2 g 2 t 2 u t + y = 0 t = u ± u 2 2 g y g y = ut - \dfrac{g}{2}t^{2} \Longrightarrow \dfrac{g}{2}t^{2} - ut + y = 0 \Longrightarrow t = \dfrac{u \pm \sqrt{u^{2} - 2gy}}{g} , (i).

Now the velocity of the stone at time t t is v ( t ) = u g t v(t) = u - gt . Plugging in equation (i) gives us

v ( y ) = u ( u ± u 2 2 g y ) = ± u 2 2 g y v(y) = u - (u \pm \sqrt{u^{2} - 2gy}) = \pm \sqrt{u^{2} - 2gy} .

Now for h > 0 h \gt 0 we are given that

v ( h ) = 2 v ( h ) u 2 + 2 g h = 2 u 2 2 g h |v(-h)| = 2|v(h)| \Longrightarrow \sqrt{u^{2} + 2gh} = 2\sqrt{u^{2} - 2gh}

u 2 + 2 g h = 4 ( u 2 2 g h ) 10 g h = 3 u 2 h = 3 u 2 10 g \Longrightarrow u^{2} + 2gh = 4(u^{2} - 2gh) \Longrightarrow 10gh = 3u^{2} \Longrightarrow h = \dfrac{3u^{2}}{10g} .

Now the maximum height of the stone is achieved when

v ( t ) = u g t = 0 t = u g y m a x = u 2 g g 2 u 2 g 2 = u 2 2 g v(t) = u - gt = 0 \Longrightarrow t = \dfrac{u}{g} \Longrightarrow y_{max} = \dfrac{u^{2}}{g} - \dfrac{g}{2}*\dfrac{u^{2}}{g^{2}} = \dfrac{u^{2}}{2g} .

So y m a x h = u 2 2 g 3 u 2 10 g = 5 3 \dfrac{y_{max}}{h} = \dfrac{\dfrac{u^{2}}{2g}}{\dfrac{3u^{2}}{10g}} = \dfrac{5}{3} , and thus p + q = 5 + 3 = 8 p + q = 5 + 3 = \boxed{8} .

This is another approach of solving using time. For the sake of variety, I have posted my solution which does not use time :)

Nihar Mahajan - 5 years, 2 months ago

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Einstein would approve of your simpler approach. :)

Brian Charlesworth - 5 years, 2 months ago

Einstein approves

Mehul Arora - 5 years, 2 months ago

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Where?When?

Harsh Shrivastava - 5 years, 2 months ago

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12 hours ago. He was tutoring me, you see.

Mehul Arora - 5 years, 2 months ago

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@Mehul Arora Oh I don't see.

[no tet offense :P]

Harsh Shrivastava - 5 years, 2 months ago

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@Harsh Shrivastava Hahaha None Taken

Mehul Arora - 5 years, 2 months ago

@Mehul Arora Mehul's Approval \approx Einstien's approval

Harsh Shrivastava - 5 years, 2 months ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Apr 15, 2016

Let H H be the highest point, and P P and Q Q the two points discussed in the problem.

Let t t be the time it takes from P P to Q Q , and let v v the speed at point P P . Then the speed at point Q Q is 2 v 2v .

Since speed is directly proportional to falling time,

  • the falling time between H H and P P is also t t ;

  • the average speed between P P and Q Q is 1 1 2 v 1\tfrac 12 v ;

  • the average speed between H H and P P is 1 2 v \tfrac 12 v .

Thus the ratio of distances is H P : P Q = 1 2 : 1 1 2 = 1 : 3 HP : PQ = \tfrac12 : 1\tfrac12 = 1:3 . It follows that H P = 1 3 2 h = 2 3 h HP = \tfrac13\cdot 2h = \tfrac 23 h , so that H H lies at 5 h / 3 5h/3 above A A .

Simple, short and elegant.

Swapnil Das - 5 years, 2 months ago
N. Aadhaar Murty
Oct 4, 2020

Let the velocities at height h h above A A and height h h below A A be v 1 v_1 and 2 v 1 2v_1 respectively. If the object is thrown upwards with a velocity v 0 v_0 , then

v 1 2 = v 0 2 2 g h v_1^{2} = v_0^{2} - 2gh

and

( 2 v 1 ) 2 = v 0 2 + 2 g h v 1 2 = 4 g h 3 (2v_1)^{2} = v_0^{2} + 2gh \Rightarrow v_1^{2} =\frac {4gh}{3}

Therefore,

v 0 2 = 10 g h 3 H m a x = v 0 2 2 g = 5 h 3 v_0^{2} = \frac {10gh}{3} \therefore H_{max} = \frac {v_0^{2}}{2g} = \frac {5h}{3}

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