Mathathon 2020 Problem 7 - Impossible

A number's persistence is the number of steps required to reduce it to a single digit by multiplying all its digits to obtain a second number, then multiplying all the digits of that number to obtain a third number, and so on until a one-digit number is obtained. For example, 77 77 has a persistence of four because it requires four steps to reduce it to one digit: 77 49 36 18 8 77 \to 49 \to 36 \to 18 \to 8 . The smallest number of persistence one is 10 10 , the smallest of persistence two is 25 25 , the smallest of persistence three is 39 39 , and the smaller of persistence four is 77 77 . What is the smallest number of persistence five?

(Note : Time limit is not there for this problem, so no points for time, but instead bonus points will be given to those, who can post a general formula to find the smallest number with persistence of n n , using code for this will also be appreciated, although it won't gain extra points. The points will be awarded based on the algebraic approach that is used and whether your generalization actually works.)

The points in this round will be multiplied by 2 2 for no reason whatsoever, so 10 10 points in a easy question = 20 = 20 points in the impossible question and maximum possible score is 100 100 points!


The answer is 679.

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9 solutions

How to get an "Impossible" problem right???

  • Step 1 - Open Google

  • Step 2 - Search "persistence of a number"

  • Step 3 - Open the Wikipedia page.

  • Step 4 - Find the sequence, we get 679 679 as the 5 th 5^\text{th} number of the sequence.

  • Step 5 - Type the answer.

  • Step 6 - See "Correct! The answer is 679."

  • Step 7 - Be happy.

Try this problem if you want a non-google problem.

Aryan Sanghi - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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I saw it, saw your name, and closed straight away, knowing it would be difficult :) Ok, I'll read it to see if I understand.

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Thanku for the appreciation. Ok, try it when you get time. It's more of a geometry problem.

Aryan Sanghi - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

It seems to apply some theorem I don't know of. I'll try it tomorrow, and if I don't understand, I'll check the solution. But I need to sleep.

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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No, no theorem is applied. Just normal geometry.

Aryan Sanghi - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Aryan Sanghi Ok, I'll try tomorrow! I am sleepy.

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Nice helpful interesting and brilliant

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

This is the best solution I have ever seen. I wonder where this genius of yours comes from? @Percy Jackson I thought you were going to post any of the Millennium Prize problems: Link for this impossible question. XD

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

:| I actually didn't look it up... I should have though. I spend around 1 hour guessing and checking...

Helen Fang - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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LOL, 1 hour of number guessing............................how are you still alive???

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Vinayak Srivastava - You forgot a step - Post a super sassy solution.

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Domain Score Reason
Humor Part 1 10 Obvious
Humor Part 2 10 Obvious
Humor Part 3 10 Obvious
Humor Part 4 10 Obvious
Humor Part 5 10 Obvious
Humor Part 6 10 Obvious
Humor Part 7 10 Obvious
Humor Part 8 10 Obvious
Humor Part 9 10 Obvious
Humor Part 10 10 Obvious
Total 100 @Vinayak Srivastava LOL XD

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Lol. You're right.

Aryan Sanghi - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Thank you! Now I will also participate! Take me back!

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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LOL, I can do that, but only on a day that is not Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday or Sunday. XD

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Then do it on 0:00 a.m. as it is neither Wednesday or Thursday. 😂

Aryan Sanghi - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Aryan Sanghi Exactly!!!

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Aryan Sanghi Its the next day, as it starts the next day or something, and the day changes on all electronic devices @Aryan Sanghi

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

:) :) :) :) lol love your solution

genius kid - 10 months, 2 weeks ago
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def eval(n, counter):
    if len(str(n)) == 1:
        return 0
    else:
        prod = 1
        for p in list(map(int, str(n))):
            prod *= p
        counter = eval(prod, counter) + 1
    return counter

result, i = 0, 0
while result < 5:
    i += 1
    result = eval(i, 0)
print(i)

1
679

W a s i t t o o e a s y f o r a n I M P O S S I B L E P R O B L E M ? ? ? \color{#D61F06}{Was \ it \ too \ easy \ for \ an \ IMPOSSIBLE \ PROBLEM???}

Vote your answer - Confused if Yes, and Interesting if No

I'm so nervous about whether someone will even post a solution or not, that I'm writing in red, even though I love BLUE!!!!!!!

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Code is accepted in any language as long as you explain it and it works properly!

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Percy Jackson I'll give a code sometime later for a n n persistence number.

Aryan Sanghi - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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But in some sites, they also mention a conjecture, there is a number c c above which there is no greater persistence than c c

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yes I also saw it. Btw any number can be brought to one digit using atmost 10 l o g l o g n 10 loglog n steps, which is kinda small. So, maybe there isn't number of persistence 15 15 in base c = 10 c = 10 .

Btw, did you try this problem. You will solve it. :)

Aryan Sanghi - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Aryan Sanghi Co-incidence I was just reading the problem, I will try to solve in the morning. I have saved it :)

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty Ohk, Nice coincidence. Try it tomorrow. :)

Aryan Sanghi - 10 months, 3 weeks ago
Lorenz W.
Jul 22, 2020
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#Code for any persistance.
import sys 
global sp
global colength
global cdigits
global result
global h
global n
global sp
global uhm
global bordervalue
bordervalue = 100000000 #Bordervalue is the highest value we want to search. It can be set as high as we want it. I just didn't want to set it too high. If you want to have a higher border value, just change it.
sp = 5 #The persistance we are searching for
n = 0
uhm = 0 # Our start value

def stellenmultiplikator(counter, iterations):
    cdigits = str(counter)
    colength = len(cdigits)#Multipliziert alle Stellen eines Wertes miteinander
    global n
    n = 0
    global result
    result = 1
    while  n < colength: #This while loop multiplies all digits of a value and returns them as the varibale "result"
        h = int(cdigits[n])
        result = result*h
        n += 1
    iterations += 1 #iterations counts how many times we have already multiplied
    if iterations == sp: #This basically says: If we have iterated enough times to reach the persistance show the value and stop searching
        print("Answer:",uhm)
        sys.exit()
    elif iterations < sp and result > 9 : #If we havent reached the searched persistance and still have 2 digits or more we continue
        stellenmultiplikator(result, iterations)
    #Otherwise we return to the loop and search for a higher value
while uhm < bordervalue: 
    stellenmultiplikator(uhm, 0)
    uhm += 1

1
 Answer : 679 #Output

@Lorenz W. - How to find the value of number with persistence 4 with your code? Please explain as I asked for general formula, also do you want scores now?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Percy Jackson A general code will take a bit of time. I'll comment again when I programmed a solution for a general formula.

Lorenz W. - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Ok, I'll score you at that time then :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Percy Jackson Now you can score me. I've finally managed to programm it for any persistance n.

Lorenz W. - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Good Code, I tested it and it works :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Uniqueness 10 Unique code
Latex 10 As there is no reason to use Latex
No Mistakes 10 The code and answer are perfect
Clarity 10 Comments in code make everything very vlear
Generalization 0 There is no algebraic generalization
@Lorenz W. 's Total 40 × 2 = 80 40 \times 2 = 80 Awesome!

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago
Annabeth Chase
Jul 24, 2020

I checked for all the numbers from 1.

Since there were many patterns, it took me about half an hour to find the answer :)

And my solution to this problem is, well, persistence!

T h e a n s w e r i s 679 \boxed{The \ answer \ is \ \underline{679}}

T h e a n s w e r i s 679 \boxed{The \ answer \ is \ \underline{679}}

Code : \boxed{The \ answer \ is \ \underline{679}}

Your welcome @Annabeth Chase :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 2 weeks ago

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Yayy, thanks😁

Annabeth Chase - 10 months, 1 week ago

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Annabeth, why haven't you made a cool status and uploaded your profile pic like me and Jason @Annabeth Chase ???

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 1 week ago

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I knew it! The brains of our team is here!

Jason Grace - 10 months, 2 weeks ago

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Now that's performance pressure!😂

Annabeth Chase - 10 months, 1 week ago

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@Annabeth Chase Leave it to Annie to type words that I'll never imagine knowing the meaning of, what is performance pressure @Annabeth Chase ?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 1 week ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member When people expect you to perform well :P

Annabeth Chase - 10 months, 1 week ago

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@Annabeth Chase I see, but you are the Daughter of Athena in our team, so you are the brains of the team :) @Annabeth Chase

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 1 week ago

@Frisk Dreemurr - That leaves only Piper and Hazel, because @Annabeth Chase is here :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 1 week ago

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Hi, the five!

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 1 week ago

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Hopefully they come soon, then we'll be the seven @Frisk Dreemurr :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 1 week ago

@Percy Jackson @Frisk Dreemurr I think Leo got bored of Brilliant :|

Jason Grace - 10 months, 1 week ago

@Annabeth Chase mention[9579153:Annabeth Chase]

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 1 week ago
Frisk Dreemurr
Jul 21, 2020

The answer is 679 \text{The answer is }679

The method of getting the answer is by knowing the fact that after the first step of multiplication, \text{The method of getting the answer is by knowing the fact that after the first step of multiplication,}

the number should come in the format of 2 i 3 j 7 k or 3 i 5 j 7 k \text{the number should come in the format of }2^i3^j7^k \text{ or }3^i5^j7^k

i , j , k are variables which can be equal to any number, but they should be there, otherwise it can’t have persistence \boxed{i, j, k \textit{ are variables which can be equal to any number, but they should be there, otherwise it can't have persistence}}

An example \textbf{An example}

679 679

After first step, it becomes 6 × 7 × 9 = 378 \text{After first step, it becomes }6×7×9 = 378

378 = 2 1 3 3 7 1 378 = 2^13^37^1

In here i = 1 ; j = 3 ; k = 1 \text{In here }i = 1; j = 3; k = 1


There isn’t a general format for this question, \text{There isn't a general format for this question,}

and there are conjectures on whether there is a number c where persistence never goes above c \text{and there are conjectures on whether there is a number c where persistence never goes above }c

But like how I said, the format I mentioned above helps find numbers with this quality using computers, \text{But like how I said, the format I mentioned above helps find numbers with this quality using computers,}

and not meant to be on paper \text{and not meant to be on paper}

@Percy Jackson

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Uniqueness 10 Unique
Latex 10 Everything is Latex-ed :)
No Mistakes 0 Where is the answer to this problem?
Clarity 6 No examples to set your proof, as it is still very abstract
Generalization 5 Your generalization isn't clear enough to understand
@Hamza Anushath 's Total 31 × 2 = 62 31 \times 2 = 62 Awesome!
No score changes are allowed now.....

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Bro, sorry man, last time @Percy Jackson , I forgot to hit the post button

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Last score change, I beg and plead from you, O brave demigod!

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Percy Jackson

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Flattery, doesn't work @Hamza Anushath

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Hahaha, ok @Percy Jackson

Thanks for the reply

It was a test to see whether you fall for flattery or not

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Percy Jackson , can you rescore my solution? I did some editing and clarifications...

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Percy Jackson , one last time, cuz my internet doesn't work so good, it will post halfway

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Hope you can understand

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Sorry, but that's too partial....................

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Hamza Anushath - We are talking about multiplicative persistence, not additive, as 679 has an additive persistence of 2..............................your solution is still wrong, and that's why, I'm not going to give you more scores................

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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I purposely posted the solution wrong @Percy Jackson

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@Percy Jackson , I don't need extra score, but I corrected the solution now. Thnx for succeeding my test. Peace

P.S. Check my solution now, if you want to

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Good solution its better now @Hamza Anushath , but why do i need to be tested? I held up the sky, and only the heroes with the purest hearts can do that, not to brag, Peace......although it never lasts, some monster or war makes its way into a demigod's life............

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yes, but it is part of the gods' plan. They test you to see for themselves whether you are what you say you are

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Frisk Dreemurr Are you some kind of annoying Daughter of Zeus, an your dad told you to test me?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member No, and oh

No, that I am not a daughter of Zeus

And oh, I never remembered Zeus having multiple daughters, or that you were getting notifications from Brilliant

@Percy Jackson

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

@A Former Brilliant Member Plus, do you think that I should start a competition of some sort @Percy Jackson ? What is your idea on that?

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Frisk Dreemurr Whatever, you do me and Anna support it (as long as its not evil stuff), so go ahead, its a fun experience! Contests are also in the BRILLIANT trend right now aren't they.

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Yes, I think they are...

Frisk Dreemurr - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Frisk Dreemurr I would suggest taking it to science, mechanics or logic though, math can get boring, but its your choice :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago
Elijah L
Jul 21, 2020

I would assume that there is no generalization since there is no known number with persistence 12. To be honest, the way I solved it was just putting in“10, 25, 39, 77" into OEIS. The first result was a sequence about persistence, which gave the answer of 679 \textnormal{I would assume that there is no generalization since there is no known number with persistence 12. To be honest, the way I solved}\\\textnormal{it was just putting in``10, 25, 39, 77" into OEIS. The first result was a sequence about persistence, which gave the answer of } \boxed{679} .

Uniqueness 0 Using OEIS won't add to your uniqueness
Latex 10 Everything is Latex-ed
No Mistakes 10 There are no mistakes...
Clarity 10 Pretty clear
Generalization 0 You haven't even tried to form a general formula
@Elijah L 's Total 30 × 2 = 60 30 \times 2 = 60 Awesome!

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

I will post a math approach, when I can.

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#include <iostream>
using namespace std;
int sol(int a, int b, int c);
int main()
{
    for(int a=0;;a++){
        for(int b=0;b<10;b++){
            for(int c=0;c<10;c++){
                if(sol(a,b,c)==5){
                    cout << a << b << c;
                    return 0;
                }
            }
        }
    }
}
int sol(int a, int b, int c){
    if (a==0&&b==0) return 0;
    if (a==0){
        int d=b*c%10, e=b*c/10;
        return sol(a,e,d)+1;
    }
    int r=a*b*c%10, t=(a*b*c-r)/10,g=t%10, l=(a*b*c-r-10*g)/100;
    return sol(l,g,r)+1;
}

I am assuming you want scores after your algebraic approach.............. @Páll Márton

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yeah. I will go home today, so maybe on thursday.

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Uniqueness 10 Unique code
Latex 10 No reason to use Latex
No Mistakes 10 No mistakes in the code
Clarity 5 Code indentation is present, but no comments are written to explain
Generalization 0 No algebraic generalization
@Páll Márton 's Total 35 × 2 = 70 35 \times 2 = 70 Awesome!
Its Friday! Your algebra thingy isn't here, so too late!

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yeah. I found only a long math trial and error method, but write a code is easier :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Ok, your certificate is there in Mathathon hall of fame comments, go check it out @Páll Márton

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Yeah. I got a notification about it.

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

The number is 679 \text{\Large The number is 679}

T a k e \boxed{Take} i t \boxed{it} o r \boxed{or} l e a v e \boxed{leave} i t \boxed{it}

Here you will only find a code solution or somebody explaining how to do trial and error.

  • I also did trial and error but verified from Wikipedia also.

Shall i score you now? @Siddharth Chakravarty

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yes, Percy. You can.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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That's Persassy to you Mr. @Siddharth Chakravarty , and alos, why are you talking like a dracaena, did it bite you or something LOL

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member I am fine but bored.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty Siddharth : I am bored

Persassy : I am ADHD and I love it LOL (ADHD keeps me from being bored)XD

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Uniqueness 2 The unique Latex boxes earn you 2points
Latex 10 Funnily, I'm obliged to give you a ten
No Mistakes 10 No mistakes
Clarity 10 Clearly, I can see that you checked the answer on Wikipedia
Generalization 0 You used Trial and Error Method
@Siddharth Chakravarty 's Total 32 × 2 = 64 32 \times 2 = 64 Good Job!

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO It took me an eternity to type this.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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LOL, 10 minutes to edit @Siddharth Chakravarty Everyone deserves second chances, but it depends on how you use it...................................

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member I was bored to put the /text in the latex and wanted it to look weird. So nvm I am like in the contest and not also in the contest 😂

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty Ok, if you don't want to edit, then.........................no prob.

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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