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Let's focus on the real issue - the question was rigged to begin with "True of False"? There was never an OR in the question - so everyone is wrong regardless of your answer.
You know, in my opinion.. When some cannon,missile, or projectiles are being launch or shoot , diffrent 0.000001m is causing diffrent location... I think 0.999..9 is different from 1
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Noones saying 0.000001=0
It did NOT say 0.999...9. The nines go on FOREVER.
I came to post a proof thinking that it would clear up all of the misconceptions, but clearly concepts proven by mathematicians can't outmatch the brilliance of Internet commenters.
Wikipedia has half a dozen different proofs all showing the same answer, so if someone can't understand at least one of these methods, I don't know what else can be done other than to shrug and move on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...
tl;dr - The bottom line is that .999... is defined as real number that equals 0. It doesn't have to make sense. It's just what it is in mathematics.
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It doesn't.
All of the proofs assume real numbers only and not infinitesimals. With infinitesimals, it is objective fact that . 999... is smaller than one.
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It's a fact? Well, facts can be proven; prove this one.
1 is never 0.9999. That means 0.99999 and beyond don't exist anymore.
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Yanno, cuz Wikipedia is ALWAYS right....lmao sorry I had to lol
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https://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/10012.5.shtml Wikipedia's reliable to a point.
since 9.99999... is undefined as how many 9's are after the decimal point then all calculations done on your proof are just estimations not accurate calculations. We can say that when you subtracted equation one from equation 2 you will have 9.9999-0.99999= 8.99991 Therefore, it is not 9. Your mistake is in assuming that if there are 5 digits after the decimal point they will still be 5 digits after we multiply that number by 10. That is a trick you can play on little kids, not on mathematicians. So, no matter how many digits after the decimal point your first number has, the second number after multiplied by 10 will have one less digit. And please do not refer to Wikipedia for accuracy. Anyone can edit those proofs. As for the sum of the geometric sequence, do not forget is a geometric sequence, hence it is infinite and so again the answer is rounded and estimated to the best value that is the closest value to the real number but not exactly the real value, since infinite itself has no exact value.
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It's recurring. So there's no end to 99999 so the ans is correct
What illogical explanation are you giving you subtract 9x=9 How? Its an approximation so explanation is wrong
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It's not an approximation, but an infinite decimal.
if x is 0.9999 then 10x would be 9.9998(using 4th decimal rounding as it was originally rounded to 0.9999), so minus the x off it again would be 8.999, so it still doesn't equal x or 1. Rounding a number up doesn't make it the same, this is common sense.
Dumb version: x = 0.9, 10x = 9, 9x = 8.1, 9x isn't 9.
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Wrong. Hilbert's hotel, always has room for one more guest.
The nines go on forever, not just five of them.
This isn't a proof. You divided by one in your attempt to prove. Divide by 0.9999... and you don't get the same result. So the two numbers aren't equivalent.
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What result do you get?
I like how you divided by a number that takes an infinite amount of time to even type :-D
I disagree with your proof. You completely drop the greater than sign. You have to keep both sides equal, you can't just go throwing in parts tell it looks like it works. If you want 0.9999999... = x then your equation has to be 1 > x. And I'm afraid to tell you that multiplying it by 10 doesn't change that 1 > .99999.... Now if you had argued that divide .9999 by 3 and you get .33333 which in turn is equal to 1/3 you can argue that. But the problem is that your using a little jump that in reality is just a limit that gets so close that it never actually equals 1/3. Using limits from Calculus, you'd understand that 0.9999.... Is never going to equal 1.
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'x = 0.9, 10x = 9, 9x = 8.1, 9x isn't 9' im not adding any numbers, its rounded off to the first decimal and then calculated, how do you not understand that.
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It doesn't work if you round. No one is saying 0.999 = 1 they are saying 0.999... = 1 0.999 and 0.999... are not the same.
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@Lee Hughes – is 1> 0.9999... - NO! The correct answer without context of the language to be defined within what numbers are a language of counting. There is no proof that creates a summation of explaination for teh question in reference, no matter how many high minded fools their are. yes, 1/3 +1/3+1/3 must be one, but that is a fractional base and relates another concept. So math as a langague of precision and calculation, in reality, 0.9999... is less than 1. In relating of language of math it is a proof called filling the error which is mostly just hogwash. Since many of the proofs, I can do something like. Is 14 > 5. I could make a proof that would state it is not by teh same premise, because its abusing the same loop hole of math language. Not math itself its term of measure. What that measure is underdetermined and htus than changed the context of its numerical relation. change 14 > 5 to let 14 = A let 5 = B A > B then carry on with this supplemental root. I quite dislike teh shit hole india and its kind ,but I would be ruleld a jerk, but they have devasted teh system and centralised and robbed western canandiasn and flooded teh hsores wit h weird society, that has stolen just like in teh days of the fall of rome form their theft of works and then use of capital and undermining markets and then free reign and purchase, Iw oudl choose 10 good and great minds over a the hoard of the earth of the billions in which, act and do and steal nd never see, like little disgusting runts... all their criems they care not, and thus they create asoicety inwhcih their a care not they love ot create homeless people. I want none of these breathen within teh domain of me, a sick people full of nonsense, jsut like asiatics for some degree. the nthere is the other cloud of nonsense... truly a cruel world of lies and misleading tha tdevlaues life. but for those that are aware, most leave teh shores and move and make a new home when the hoard make camp and move in, through hall sorts fo the same linguistic nonsense... Yes that is arelation to the question ,because math is a language, and without context or measure it is abritray to what is beign defined, and the question doesn ot have parameters and so the most honest answer to what is being asked is ... Is A > B if A is 1 and B is 0.999,,, and or if A is also 3 > then if B is also 2? that is the applied logic.. brialiance is another shitty thign, fuck trudeau and then taxation of billions from canandians killing them off to replace them wit ha bunch of thieves... military is jsut as bad, clearly peope ldo not know law or culture, but make it so as to parrot a game of thieves. a cruel group.
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@Artemirr Lazaris – oh man, why are there so many mathtards in the world? And why do they still decide to do math puzzles?
Well, how big is that jump? If you think about it, you'll see that it's exactly 0.
Wow, the first one is a bit trippy for my logic ahahaha. Anyways, does this have a basis in limits as in dx being very close to zero and is then approximated as such?
The sum of infinite series as you have done above takes in to account the limits and derivatives ,right? I would rather say 0.999999... -> (tends to) 1. But how come its equal.I guess the proofs stated above is not valid coz sum of infinite terms in a GP is APPROX equal to a/(1-r);not exactly equal to.
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What does "tend to" mean in this context? With respect to what variable?
And the sum of infinitely many terms of geometric progression is exactly equal to 1 over 1 minus its quotient.
Interesting point.
To my eye, if x = 0.9999999999... then 10x should equal 9.99999999999...0, ie there are infinity-1 nines, and therefore a difference between 10x and 10 of 10^(1-infinity) - but of course infinity is not a rational number.
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Infinity - 1 is still infinity. moving the decimal does not make 0.999... 9.999...0 it makes it 9.999... infinity is not a number and cannot be treated as such. If you do try an treat it as a number you get odd stuff happen
1* infinity = infinity 2* infinity = infinity divide by infinity 1=2
Infinity is not a number at all!
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I like how you just placed a zero in there as if 0.999... was a finite number to begin with :-D
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@Denis Schüle – I did no such thing, sir. Hit Reply on the correct comment next time.
Lol, dumb. It's still not equal
Very elegant proof.
9 multiplied by 0.9999... is equal to less than 9, however you have it listed above as equal to 9. This is why I don't accept the above to be true.
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No, 0.9999... is multiplied by 10. Just move the decimal point, and 10 0.9999... = 9.999.... The nines go on forever, so the difference is 9 0.9999... = 9.
I showed this solution to my high school math teacher in 1969.
This is really just a trivia question on if a convention has been adopted that an infinite decimal will be called equivalent to the limit it approaches at infinity even though it only asymptotically approaches it.
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that's one of the smartest comments here. 0.999...=1 literally is just the definition of the minit of the corresponding series. as with increasing amount of 9s, it approaches 1.
By this logic we can argue that no number is larger than another number.... because their is always a number right next to it which has its same approximate value. I think that you are mixing up limits with actual values for this problem. Although it can be shown mathematically that 1 ~ .999999999999999... They are not the same number and 1 is still to the left of .9999999999... on the number line, which is the standard for determining if a number is greater than another number. What your proof is showing is that for most purposes .9999999999999... is indistinguishable from 1; it is showing a problem with notation which gives you an answer that is a fallacy. What you have done is what I like to call mathmagic, something you can prove but is inherently false...
In real life we use significant figures and this will never happen. Tools will always give us values that terminate because atoms are quantum in nature and come in packets. Nice proof though.
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Mathematics, while helpful in real life, is NOT real life. You cannot go on forever, but decimals CAN.
Yes, the number line is quite helpful to get the right intuition. Look: every two different points on a line determine a segment. Every segment has a length. What is the length of that segment?
There are some notational issues (... vs. overline) with the post but I think most people get that the precision is unlimited. I agree that the solution provided is valid, my question regards whether a different definition of the real numbers or possibly '>' would change the answer. Specifically, I am wondering about the introduction of the infinitesimal from nonstandard analysis. The nonstandard version of '>' might make the statement true.
I know this method but still it doesn't make a sense cause if it is like this then we can write 0.99 instead of 1 in our daily life.
So even do it is proven that 1 is equals to 0.99 still it's not practical in our day to day life.
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No, the nines go on forever, so it's .999999...
Can't be answered with this info. 1.02 = 1 1.02 > .9999999... .98 = 1 .98< .999999.... It's a trick significant figures question, not real math
If we assumed that x= .9999 and prove that x= 1 then the assumption itself is wrong and hence the answer is also wrong !!!
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No, the nines go on forever.
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If that was truly meant in the question, it should have more correctly defined that it was a limit, not an actual number
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@Benjamin Amoss – That's usually what the ellipsis means.
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@Whitney Clark – Actually, no. An ellipsis is a linguistic tool that denotes a pattern that could be reasonably implied to a reader and commonly has the fallacy of being used too ambiguously. Here, and ellipsis would mean that this pattern did indeed continue forever, permanently setting this answer to true in that is always less than 1. A limit would have fixed that. I would read more into things before trying to post smart comments.
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@Benjamin Amoss – What's the simple way of putting that without an ellipsis, then?
So: Is 1 minus 0.99999..... greater or equal to 0? Is 1 times 0.99999.......less than or equal to 1?
These questions involving 0.9999...... seem more like philosophy than math
Where is the end of the universe? When was the beginning of time? What is the value of infinity? Does God exist?
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Except that the first one can be proven. The nines go on forever, so the difference is less than one, less than 1/10, less than 1/100, less than 1/1,000,000, etc., but not negative. Only zero fits that description.
The problem is, the assumption is incorrect, "if 0.999... = x, then 9.99... = 10x", you are escalating a tiny issue somewhere, there's a little bit of data being escalated 10 times, and you are ignoring that issue. So, yes, if you ignore some amount of data, 1 = 0.999...
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Yes, if you ignore 0, then 1=0,999... . That little bit of data is exactly 0.
1 is greater than 0.999999... By definition. The proof is incorrect. So the problem here is finding out why the proof that was presented is incorrect. Or, we can accept the answer and just miss the moon by mere inches
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What is that definition? I was under the impression that the nines go on forever, so there are no inches to miss. By how much is it greater?
How has this question not been deleted yet?
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Because there's nothing wrong with it.
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Sure there is, look at my other reply to your post. Starting with clear, understood constraints is essential in both theoretical and applied sciences.
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@Benjamin Amoss – It's not my duty to hunt for your reply. What exactly is wrong with the question?
If 0,9999.... = x, then 9*x = 8,(9)1 and not 9. Therefore 8,(9)1 / 9 = 0,9999...
Your "proof" is wrong.
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What does 8,(9)1 mean? Can you give a way to find it on the number line?
I am not convinced ... I mean if 0,99999999... = 1,00000000... the outcome could be that 0=1 and 9=0. I am not convinced you can say "0.9999...=x THEN 10x=9.9999..." . I am not convinced that you can use "something that is approaching to a number" as a number. In my opinion your demostration is a sort of "circular reference".
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Can you use pi as a number? :-)
That's only always true for finite decimals. Strange things happen at infinity.
This rubbish.
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With all due respect,his solution is completely mathematically consistent. (Note: "mathematically consistent" is not equivalent to "intuitively correct")
He summed the infinite geometric series and showed that the answer is 1.
If you want to discuss the problem,by all means go ahead.However, just commenting "This rubbish" and not providing any justification for your point doesn't really help anybody.
9x = 8.99... with elementary arithmetic. If we are discussing limits, you should have made that clear.
1/3+1/3+1/3=1, 0.3333...+0.3333...+0.3333...=0.9999... and 1/3=0.3333... then 1=0.9999...
The first solution exceed infinity so is false. 1/3 does not equal 0.3333.. rather approximates to and infinity doesn't exist so the dots really have no meaning.
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The dots do have a meaning; they mean the 3s go on forever. One third is greater than any 0.3333...33 and less than any 0.3333...34, and THAT'S what 0.3333... means.
Both of the ways you have used involve approximation, you cannot use approximation when the numbers you want to compare are so close to each other on the number line.
Everyone who disagrees with the completely correct proof should look at the definition of decimal representation.
And also to the non uniqueness of decimal representation...
Instead of getting angry and arguing the point if you got it wrong, read the numerous proofs and sit back and think 'wow I didn't know that and now I do. What an awesome bit of general knowledge I've just learnt.'
This is an ill-posed question! There is no such number as 0.9999.... The number 0.3333... is defined because it is equal to the quantity 1/3. 0.99999... does not exist any more than some random irrational quantity such as 23.4685346....
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Thank you! Yes! Exactly!
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Yes, exactly. 0,999... exist in exactly the same sense as 23,4685346... . And 0.3333... . And 3,14159265... . As a real number. Bravo. :-)
By that logic all numbers are just random (which they are) but that doesn't make it a bad question.
If 0.333333333333... = 1/3, then wouldn't it be fair to say that 0.99999999... is equal to 3 x 0.3333333333333.... which then equals 3 x 1/3 = 1????
0.99999... is not irrational. Irrational numbers cannot be written as a fraction i.e. a/b where a and b are integers. As shown in "Yash Dev Lamba's" proof above 0.9999... can be written as 1/1. Furthermore, rational numbers do exist, they are not imaginary, for example pi exists, it is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter and is a Real number.
well actually, this video explains everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
A limiting process never reaches the limit however long you carry out the process.
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I agree - I don't like anything that relies on 'infinity'. For any finite length the inequality holds.
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I also agree. They approach the same value asymptoticly
I agree ahahaha relax everyone. Even if they are not correct, there is no reason to go on a tantrum. Discuss them calmly and if you're right then good on ya if not then you learnt something new
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The whole point is that they are supposed to be right 100% of the time. Not 99.99...(pun intended) otherwise you will always doubt the integrity of the information. right!
1 = .999999...... + .000001..... to as many digits as you would like to go !!!!!!!! So that the concept of adding a digit is the SAME in both cases. That's when MATH is correct. You may say that this is not true at infinity, except that one can not get to infinity, that is why it is infinite.
Jay Rajgopal Of course it does! What proof can you possibly produce in defense of the claim that 0.99999... doesn't exist?
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Produce the number? Offer a value that computes to 0 . 9 [not just it's assumed value @ -- c.f. 3 ( f r a c 1 3 ) ].
Better yet, offer a proof that 0 . 9 isn't transcendental!
Limit claims are invalid because, while it is a proof of convergence (as a SUM), the limit value does not SUFFICIENTLY prove the value at the limit is actually in either the Domain or the Image of the Codomain.
[For a full refutation of the claims, see my post above--it's the long one with bars; or check out my overly-verbose diatribe on my profile about it...and other things]
Actually I go this right because I know the mathematical proposition, however the answer is wrong. It is a mathematical conundrum at the infinite.
at the infinite - 1 - 0.000...001 which equals 0.999...9999 is less than 1 and must be so. However it is a mathematical convention that this equals 1.
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0.9999..999 is not the same as 0.999..., 1-0.999... is not 0.00...001 it's 0.000... The 0's go on forever. Ergo the difference between 1 and 0.999... is 0
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0.00...001 just is downright nonsense, created by some mathtards in this thread. they probably never learned what a periodic number is, therefor they are writing this shit.
"0.9999..999 is not the same as 0.999..." Um, yes it is.
It's infinitely many 9's eithwer way.
Even though writing it the first way makes you look a bit dumb. as if you need to emphasize that a number with infinitely many 9s does also end with 9s.
That points to the "problem" though, does it not?
IF the proofs are valid (as at least one of them appears to be--the "1/3" one still seems to rely upon implicit rounding rather than rigorous assertions), then the problem is within the system as it stands, not in the interpretation of the conventions.
However, if it merely is a convention as you state, then how are the proofs invalid (as they must be if the findings are merely arbitrary)? [I'm not asking facetiously--I would actually like to know!]
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Unless there is an overflow condition where 1 becomes a negative number. Otherwise 0.999.. is infinitesimally smaller than 1 and it does not matter that it approaches 1 as the digits become infinite.
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yeh one is less than one. I have no idea why I picked false, for whatever reason I read it wrong, but then I checked the email that led me here, it was a English language of the wording in which caused my confusion. LMAO so I was stating that.. for clarity I was arguing teh same point, how easy I was taken up into this nonsense...
but my relation of my point was by reason valid my direction of side was incorrect and therefor failed ot be applied appriatly. I would say.... 1 is Greater than 0.99 done, bit forwhatever reason I read it as 1 is less than 0.999 and so somehow Iwas hyponotized with an ainabiltiy to diffuse what I was reading properly.. LMAO amazing, so I sound like a idiot nad an ass to some degree, LOL. I check the email and its teh same question, weird, I swear it was reversed in what the question was stating... I thought it said 1 is less then 0.999 or equal too. Not sure what I did there.. but it is funny... although hI did have a headache that day.
Yes you said it true 0.999.. is going to be always smaller than 1. The all proof given have some wrong assumption
Incorrect. 0.9 recurring is the same as 1. It can be proven mathematically.
I agree, looking at the rebuttals, rebuttal 2 makes the most sense. I completely agree that for practical purposes 0.999... is like 1 but being like on isn't equal to one. Especially in mathematics being specific is important.
But if .999999999999999999999 = 1 then what happens if i add .000000000000000000001 to it?
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0.9999999999 is not the same as 0.999...... If you add 0.000000001 to 0.999.... You will get 1.0000000099999.... And that's true at any point you decide to "stop", since 0.99999.... Is defined to be infinite
Ha ha. So true
But you cannot reach the 1 at the back. (In maths, it is virtually bullied by the 0's [nothing] and the 0's don't let the 1 have a chance to be seen)
So... If we have .9 repeating and add .0000000001 (infinite number of zeroes) to it, we get 1. You can't add anon-zero number to itself and get the same number. Also, this whole question is ridiculous because it assumes we can define infinity. It's a limit. It approaches 1, but it never reaches it. Whoever says .9 repeating is 1 needs to do me a favor... Write it out. Write out .9 repeating with infinite 9's and let me know about the 15th googleplex of nines if it still equals the same thing.
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if that number you add, the one with infinite zeroes, has indeed infinite zeroes, then there won't be any 1 at the end, therefore nothing to add.
1 is the limit .9999..... approaches and never reaches. Therefore 1 is greater and so am I. Respectfully, God.
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That’s the key - “approaches and never reaches” and the concept of limits is basic math. Infinitely close, but not equal.
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YES! Thank you!
I really have NO idea why this is so complicated. The concepts of limits and ontology somehow are too nuanced for the Brilliant staff and a good deal of people on here. I have tried to be patient (with varying levels of success, especially on here), but at some point this is just ridiculous.
Johanna Antonelli - I didn't particularly see "anger" until THEIR pushback was rejected. And tghe fact that there was a pushback is surely acceptable.... surely "healthy debate" should be welcomed and not merely given a put-down, which is what you are doing?
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Exactly, and even if i don't disagree with the premises of 1 = 0.999... I already saw some people that uses fallacies to explain that, for example, "it is '1' because its so close to '1' that is '1'", this proves nothing, and its not semantically correct, if something is not "1" it is not "1" just because it is close to "1", there are way better answer than that.
So the debate should be very welcomed to people understand the basis of semantic and proofs and not just going there saying "it is right because i learned that it is right", if someone don't try to be their own devil's advocated they are probably easy to manipulate.
what a stupid bit of stuff ..... lost a bit of respect towards brilliant after the fucking logics behind 1 is not greater than some number that starts with 0 .
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And you have lost respect by using language like that!!?? : o I may nor have liked the answer given, but live with it (even if you continue to disagree)
One point, you state "1 is not greater than some number that starts with 0" however, IS the "(the) number that starts with 0" a number? Can it be, if it runs to infinity?.... Discuss!! : )
But the numbers after the 0 and the decimal are an infinite row of 9s, which can mathematically be proven to be the same as 1.
finaly !!! please tell all they are equal
You shouldn’t say it’s incorrect. No one got stumped on this one. 0.999... will always be smaller than one whole. Who comes up with this crap. You can’t just change the rules of math and round a number any time it’s convenient.
Now i would counter pose that for 0.99999.... <x <1 is true and thus 0.999999..... < 1 is also true simply 0.9999... < ×-0.9999999.... < 1 satisfies that state ment of 1 can only be greater than some number if there is a number such that 1>a>b With b being 0.999999....... and a being 1-0.99999.... So a true statement is that 1>1-0.999999999......>0.9999999......no matter how many 9s there are which means that 1>0.99999.... is also true
this will show you exactly how wrong you truly are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Agree with comments above. Perhaps stated another way, this appears to be simply definitional. 0.9999... isn't a number, but a definition which is limit (i=1->infinity) of sum of 9/10^i … which we can all agree equals 1. This question goes south once someone calls 0.9999… a number and not a definition (IMHO).
Every single one of these proofs are an approximation. In every single definition of 0.999... which goes on forever, for infinity, it it some infinitesimal amount smaller than 1.0.
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The point is that this proof is in the real numbers, and in the real numbers infinitesimals don't exist.
Nope. 1/9 is exactly 0.11111... Multiply that by 9 and you get exactly 0.99999... Nothing approximated there.
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OK, wow. I was on the other side of this argument, but your simple proof has changed my mind. That is exactly right, and is the whole point. I think it's the idea of infinity that is difficult to grasp for many people, even myself!
Because : A - You just typed learnt and B - If you go into a grocery store and there is a nick in an apple, you would prefer one without a nick BECAUSE IT IS A WHOLE APPLE. You can't math away the nick and fool anyone just like this proof is absurd.
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You can if the nick is so small it is literally nothing.
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I'm not in disagreement or agreement here, just checking your semantics...
But then each time we discover new things in a macro or micro perspective, those small details should still be nothing, yet they aren't.
Mathematical precision is a matter for development of math and challenges to solve those problems with a precise answer is a matter also, so, mathematically speaking, the nick is so small, it is not literally nothing, it is a so so so so small nick, but still is literally a nick.
Not that i doubt that for mathematical definition or to solve mathematical problems we can say 1 = 0.999... But how can you say for sure or at least in a way it solves that fail of semantic that is saying "something different to another something is the same something because we said so", although is correct to say "we say something different is the same as another something because that is how our works ends up done", but still, it don't answer precisely the issue, is in fact, literally, 1 = 0.999...?
1>0.99999 I don't see why that would be false. 1-0.99999=0.00001
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no it does not the ... indicates that 9 goes on to infinity so it needs 0.0 (infinity ..... ) the the 1
This one I happened to know and get it right when I saw it. Because I had a discussion about this same question 25 years ago in college with a friend. He was saying it is different numbers and I was arguing they were the same. Teacher confirmed I was right. 0.(9) is actually the same as 0.9 + 0.09 + 0.09... it is easy to see that it is an geometric progression with ratio = 0.1 Sum of all terms is given by the limit of 0.9 * (1-(0.1)^n) / 0.9 Any high school kid who was awake in math classes easily calculates this limit. It is 1. Hope I made sense. Ain't easy to write maths in mobile phone Best, Oliver Algarve
This is a bad question because it suffers from the same issue that so many Briliant questions do, which is that questions are clearly formulated/selected in order to “trick” participants... that the answer is contrary to common sense... so if you always choose the answer furthest from common sense, you’re going to be right in all of these cases... and says more about the psychology of those that pose questions and their process of selecting them than anything else. I see these questions correctly each and every time entirely without having to think about them at all... because I know the psychology.
Any series of science questions that can be easily answered with 100 % accuracy by adhering to a simple psychological rule is a garbage series of questions.
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I saw lot of those questions and i agree with you.
The number of stuborn and salty people here is astonishing ^^
So does 0.9999999..... = 1 I guess not so if not is it greater than one? I would think not. So ??? IF it does not equal 1 and if not is not greater than 1 Then ... Please explain that.
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0.999... is exactly equal to 9/9, and is exactly equal to 1.0....
either the question posed or the solution is fundamentally wrong. The solution has no logical base and math has to be logical
draw a graph 0.9999..... goes on for ever ever close and closer to 1.0 BUT NEVER EVER getting to 1.0 so therefor it HAS TO BE LESS than 1 The solution offered is flawed.
If the presented solutions are correct what happens to horizontal asymptotes? Is this not a paradox?
So a difference of 0.000000.....01 is equal to 0 ? That is out of logic, out of mind sir.
So it means in an open interval 0 to 1 instead of taking 0.999... I can take just 1 ,it does not seem right,it should be less
https://youtu.be/TINfzxSnnIE Watch this if you still think you're right when you got it wrong.
1 is actually greater than 0.999.... 0.999 aproaches 1 but is not the same thing, suspect the poser of the question was just trying to appear smart.
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It seems to me that the poser of the question is smart and right.
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It seems to me tbat both you and he, the poser, are idiots. There is absolutely no way to argue that both are equal. They are not. Logic doctates this.
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@Richard Irving – Did you mean "doctates" or"diktats"??!! : 0
0,9999999.............9 plus
1 So one is always 0,000000......1 bigger than 0,999999....... so your solution is wrong
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There is no 1 at the end, if you put a 1 at the end it's a different number
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people really are retarded.
"infinite amount of 0s" " if you put a 1 at the end"
INFINITE! END!
How can your brain manage to exist after trying to force these 2 things together? 2 things that literally negate each others existence?
There's a different way to put this than "there is no 1 at the end", which I think confuses a lot of people. Sure, you can construct a number by
There is even a name for such a number: ϵ , pronounced as "epsilon" if you're unfamiliar with the Greek alphabet. Here's the thing, though: ϵ is not a Real Number . Or, to put it more Mathematically: ϵ ∈ / R . Rather, ϵ is in what we call the Surreal Numbers .
In other words: the actual answer to this question is: "it depends" ....to be more exact, on the context . If we're in the context of the Surreal Numbers, then it can indeed be said to be true that 1 = 0 . 9 9 9 9 … , with the difference being ϵ . However, the only possible difference between 1 and 0 . 9 9 9 9 . . . . . . is not a Real Number. So in the context of the Real Numbers, the difference becomes the closest available Real Number, which is obviously 0 . The only possible conclusion is that, in the context of the Real Numbers, the two numbers are equal. And, since the context of the Real Numbers is the default context, the correct answer to the question posed is f a l s e
KYS. U r wrong
1 . − If 0.9999999999.... was distinct to 1 then there would be exist a real number x such that 0.9999.... < x < 1 (Impossible).
Theorem.- If x, y are real numbers and x is distintc to y(for example x < y), then there exists z real number, such that x < z < y and z is distinct to x and y.
Proof.- x < z = 2 x + y < y . ..
2 . − 0 . 9 9 9 9 . . . . = 1 0 9 + 1 0 0 9 + 1 0 0 0 9 + … = 1 − 1 0 1 1 0 9 = 1
3 . − 1 0 × 0 . 9 9 9 9 . . . . − 0 . 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 . . . . = 9 . 9 9 9 9 9 9 . . . − 0 . 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 . . . = 9 ⇒ ( 1 0 − 1 ) ⋅ 0 . 9 9 9 9 . . . . = 9 ⇒ 0 . 9 9 9 . . . = 9 9 = 1
4 . − Every real number has one unique decimal representation. For example, the decimal representation of 3 1 = 0 . 3 ^ = 0 . 3 3 3 3 . . . . Certanly 3 1 is a rational number and its decimal representation is 0 . 3 ^ ⇒ 1 = 3 ⋅ 3 1 = 3 × ( 0 . 3 ^ ) which decimal representation is 1.
Note.- If you don't agree you can view reports and this link 5 . − There is a last chance, 0,99999.... doesn't exist, then the statement is false too.
The thing I learned in math is that all numbers are constants. 1 is a separate number and 0.9999999999999..... Is also a separate number. You can always add more 9s to 0.9 to make it closer to 1 but will it ever equal 1? No. You can round to one but that still doesn't mean that 0.99999999999909... =1. Therefore I would say that 1>0.9999999999999999999999...
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This is why (and yes I am a PhD Scientist for 42 years) I hate math. Math should be direct and simple- no matter how many 0.9999999999999999999999999999999 you care to post- it can never equal or be greater than 1.0. If math is a game- so be it- IMHO - it should be a tool.
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I love math for all the reasons you hate it. There's room for philosophical discussion and redefinition of our guidelines and rules themselves. It's not a game, it is a tool, it's just a different sort of tool for a different sort of problem :) You prefer working in a well defined sandbox, and I think believe it or not a lot of mathematicians actually agree that those undefined areas are annoying. It's just that you prefer quarantining them off and playing with what we know works - something I do when I'm doing information science, undefined behavior is an error - where mathematicians prefer digging into those areas and widening your defined sandbox.
Or tl;dr, don't hate the player, hate the game :)
There are contexts where 0.999... is one, and contexts where it is not 1. The debate is really over which context we mean when we use the "equals" operator.
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@Jessica Pennell – I use the sandbox of STATISTICS in all my work. and- 1 is greater than 0.99999 ALL THE TIME!!!
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@Bob Bruck – I agree with 100% or in this case 99.99999999999999999999999999%
@Bob Bruck – You are correct that 1 is greater than 0.99999.But in the problem it is given that there are an infinite number of 9s after the decimal,in which case 1=0.999999.......
By this logic .3 repeating isn't equal to 1/3? Is that really the conclusion we want to come to? Edit: In fact I would make the assertion that regarding rational numbers this is true and regarding real numbers it is false. On the real line .9 repeating is equal to one thus not less than. If we used less than or equal to it would be true.
If you are Ph D and you hate Maths, you are no a doctor... because maths is the Mother of Science...
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@Guillermo Templado – I am a master at STATISTICS- not nonsense math!!!!!
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@Bob Bruck – lol im an undergrad math student and i can tell that having a phd in statistics and not appreciating math is nonsense
@Guillermo Templado – You are not intelligent
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@Ryan William – NOT a counter-proof. That kinda makes YOU the "not intelligent" one, doesn't it?
@Ryan William – Yup, I know I'm not intelligent,but I have enough wisdom to know that those who judge others without knowing them, or by a test that they believe is wrong... they probably are not very intelligent...
I agree.. This doesn't ask you to round the number at all so its .99999... Not 1 ...this IS a decimal! Less than 1
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ok, if it's a decimal less tan 1 ,then what is the value of 1 - 0.99999999.....?
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@Guillermo Templado – 0.00000000000---------(so on till 9s continue)1
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@Akash Agarwal – and you know what is a definiton of a limit?
0,000000000000000...(infinite 0's)...1 = 0 ϵ − δ Definition
It is 0.99999... Which means that the 9s are repeating. Therefore, it is never rounded. The 9s go on forever
agreed. obviously. 1>.anything
you know to sum a geometric progression? what is this 1 0 9 + 1 0 0 9 + 1 0 0 0 9 + . . . ? and look at this serie a n = 0 . 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 (n times 9) , what is the lim n → ∞ a n ?
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Buddy, you have to understand that all you are doing with this is making the number larger than it was, but you're not making it equal 1. If you question why calculators would eventually result to 1, it's because they can only handle so many decimal places. Would you say that 1>0.99? How about 1>0.999? I would say those are true, and hopefully you would too. Now I know those two examples are of numbers that arent something like 1>0.99999999999999999... But they follow the same rules. Now if you do 1 - 0.99999999999999999999999999999.... You should definitely get a really small number. Not 0 because then you're saying that 0.999999999999999999999... +0 =1 which you and I both know is wrong. If you do it in a calculator, depending on the number of decimal places you might get a really small number, or you might get 0 only because your calculator wasn't programmed to handle that many decimal places. The question posted above was very simple: is 1>0.99999999999999999999...(no matter how many decimal places)? And the answer is yes... Only because numbers are constants, not variables....
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@Danial Ali – I can't stand seeing these comments any more. Let me break this down as simply as it gets: The first point is that this is 0.9 REPEATING. That means the 9s continue infinitely.
What is 1/3 expressed in decimal form? 0.333333... repeating What is 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 ? 0.9999999... repeating
We can express the exact same equation in fractions as 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 3/3 = 1
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@David Soulodre – 0.3333... is always going to be an approximation - 1/3> 0.33333....just as 1>0.999.... ~= 1
@David Soulodre – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--HdatJwbQY - Here is a proof that shows 0.99999... does not equal 1.
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@Darren Sonenstahl – There are viewers that point out where that argument is flawed.
@David Soulodre – I can't stand seeing comments like yours and the fact that this site selling mathematical fallacies as truths. .9999.... will never be equal to one. Yes, when .9 goes on infinitely it approaches very close to one and can be considered as one but you have to use the squiggly equils sign (saying approximately one). Same thing goes when you try to decompose a decimal like .33333.... into a fraction. You can't say .333=1/3 because there is a rounding error. You can say .3333... approximately equals 1/3 and be considered as 1/3. And to break it down "simply" for you numbers are constants and .999... will never be equal to one. Thats like saying 9=10 only difference is the percent error.
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@Cave Head – Well, how about this? It is a known fact that all rational numbers can be expressed as decimals, and 1/3 is a rational number. So, what is the decimal equivalent of 1/3? It must be 0.3333.... repeating infinitely .
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@Siva Budaraju – 1/3 or 2/3 or 1x3 should be considered as calculatable equations not numbers
@Danial Ali – in the case above there is an infinite number of 9s, the cases you pointed out had finite numbers of 9. it is quite normal not to understand the concept of infinity, but if you ever did maclaurin series or taylor polynomials you would know that you can add up infinite numbers of things
@Danial Ali – What you are actually doing is explicitly enumerating the last 10% of the ingredients that make up the number one, of which there are an infinite number. .9 repeating equals one on the real line. If we were discussing discrete mathematics, the kind that lives in computers I would agree with you. The irony is that the universe may not in fact be based on 'real' numbers but it is however a system we have devised.
@Danial Ali – any number to the left of the decimal point represents a whole number, and any number to the right of the decimal point represents a part of a whole number. Under which rule of logic does a part of the whole represent a number equal to or greater than a whole number it is being compared to without that part of a number being added to a whole number that is equal to or greater than the whole number it is being compared to?
@Danial Ali – Ummm- yuppers!!!
Guillermo, you've glossed right over the controversy. I challenge you to use math to define 0.999... equalling one without using either the word "approaches", or any tool such as the limit tool which could be reduced to a form that uses the word "approaches" in its definition.
That's the controversy. When we say something "equals" something, do we mean that something "is" something, or that something "approaches" something? Or at the very least "evaluates to" something, since the value of the differential is indeed zero.
The differential here anyway does have some measurable properties. In this case, we are saying that between degrees, the value of the differential drops by a power of ten. And there is a very strong argument that anything with a measurable property, even if it does not have a value in some contexts, can not be treated as if it has a zero magnitude overall. For instance, if we were solving a differential equation that involved summing 1/10^i (where i means "index", not "imaginary"), and we set up a vector, we would have a nonzero eigenvalue for the vector.
The proper use of the equals operator is a purely semantic and arbitrary decision. Which, is why I called this a political problem and not a math problem. And that much, at least, I can prove.
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@Jessica Pennell – have you read my solutions, only one solution? where am I wrong?
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@Guillermo Templado – That's what I'm saying. You /are not/ wrong. You are completely right. It's just that there is another way to be /completely right/ and arrive at a different answer.
I don't know how to use latex here, but if we did just as a for instance, f(i) = f(i-1) + i/10 : i \ge 0 \wedge f(0) = 0
We could see, then, that it is never the case that f(n) = 1; f(n) is always less than 1. Again. Both of us used valid reasoning, we just arrived at different answers, because we were operating in different contexts.
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@Jessica Pennell – 0,99999... is a limit, the aproximations, 0.9 , 0.99, 0.999 are another thing.
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@Guillermo Templado – Guillermo, I think you are on the cusp of why this is controversial. "Is a limit" only makes sense to say if it's short for "is a limit of a function". The function in this case, 0.999... has to use the inputs we provided. Those inputs are "take a 0, then a series of 9s after the decimal". The series of 9s after the decimal /do/ follow the form - and these are /not/ approximations - 0.9, 0.09, 0.009.
The decision as to whether "..." should then include a diffential /after/ the series, is an arbitrary decision. However, I have just proved that the series itself /has to/ exist, and is /not/ an approximation or "another thing", if you are including "a limit" in your definition of what "..." should do.
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@Jessica Pennell – And just to be clear. You are saying that "..." implies a limit. The people you are arguing with, on the other hand, are arguing that "..." can only be guaranteed to apply to a series. If you want to avoid controversy in any case, you have to say "0.999... approaches 1".
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@Jessica Pennell – I'm not going to argue more. Think that you want
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@Guillermo Templado – " I'm not going to argue more. Think that you want" is incredibly rude and dismissive :( I don't understand what I said or did to deserve that?
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@Jessica Pennell – Sorry, I mean you are the only person who is able to find the solution. I can't help you more
@Jessica Pennell – It's a limit of a sequence not limit of a function. The sequence is a n = 0 . 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 (n times 9)
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@Guillermo Templado – Guillermo, you are there :)
Before I go any further. The function I provided, mathematically, has to describe 0.999... and therefore what you just posted is merely a restatement of the function I provided. So since you are just restating what I said in another form, we'll be nice and use your form :)
Now. The controversy. Why is it a limit? Because you say so? If someone said, explicitly, that "..." was not a limit, and then provided the statement "for any finite real integer n, a at n is less than 1" as a proof that 0.999... was always less than 1, their proof would be correct in the context they described
In other words : whether 0.999 is equal to 1 or not is completely dependent on how we define the "..." operator.
Which is, itself, an arbitrary decision, which was to be shown.
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@Jessica Pennell – bla, bla , bla
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@Guillermo Templado – "bla, bla, bla" ? You aren't doing yourself or your position any favors in the eyes of any reasonable person who reads our exchange by being an asshole. I agree though, we're done discussing. I don't see this going anywhere. We've both stated our positions and neither of us will learn from the other.
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@Jessica Pennell – Exactly , you make reason
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@Guillermo Templado – Way to go. Not only are you missing the point, but you alienated the one person who had the patience to try and explain it to you in a reasonable fashion.
@Guillermo Templado – Limits don't actually consider what happens AT the value in the limiting case, only what happens as the function APPROACHES said value. You could add another 9 behind the decimal until there are infinity of them, but 1 will still be greater. There's a zero out front for a reason.
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@Chase Fuller – Copying and pasting this everywhere here:
What is 1/3 expressed in decimal form? 0.333333... repeating What is 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 ? 0.9999999... repeating
We can express the exact same equation in fractions as 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 3/3 = 1
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@David Soulodre – Approximately
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@Cave Head – Well, how about this? It is a known fact that all rational numbers can be expressed as decimals, and 1/3 is a rational number. So, what is the decimal equivalent of 1/3? It must be 0.3333.... repeating infinitely.
@Chase Fuller – In the continuum of the real number line the limit is defined and the correct answer is .9 repeating does in fact equal one. The only way the answer listed is correct is if we are using rational numbers, however. 9 repeating isn't defined in the rational line therefore I'm forced to assume it's the real line and the answer is wrong.
In some professions such as lab tech o a machinist : .99999 cannot equal 1, if if did, things would not work
But what I learned was that 0.99999....has already added 9s forever. I also think of it as what can I add to 0.99999999.... to get 1 and there's nothing you can add because the 9s go on forever.
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Christian, while you're completely correct in your reasoning, the equally valid reasoning you are arguing against, is that the fact that it is impossible to complete the series 0.999... , since it goes on forever, and the fact that it is possible to complete the series 1, since 1 = 1.0 = 1.00 by the definition of a real number, we can't treat them as the same thing; we can only say that as you add more 9s, you get closer and closer to 1. The word that we can guarantee is proper for this situation is "approaches"
To put it simply, "0.999... approaches 1", everyone agrees that's the case. "0.999... is 1", is only the case if you look at the problem a certain way, and is not the case when you look at it the way I just described.
Or to put it even more simply, this is a blue dress / white dress thing.
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@Jessica Pennell – I argue with the language you are using, and I don't think you quite grasp to concept of "infinity". You keep saying that that 0.999... (repeating) "approaches" 1. This is not strictly true. The sequence 0.999... only "approaches" 1 when the quantity of 9's after the decimal place "approaches" infinity. The question above implies that the quantity of 9's after the decimal place IS infinite, and therefore the only solution can be is that 0.999... (repeating infinitely) has the EXACT same value as 1. Two numbers are different, by definition, if they have a difference. The difference between 0.999... (repeating infinitely) and 1 is 0.000... (repeating infinitely) which, by definition, IS 0. So 0.999... = 1. People need to stop looking at this problem from a discrete mathematics point of view, and realise the it is a pure mathematical problem, and requires a proper understanding of infinity to truly understand it.
The solution uses the expression for the sum of infinite terms of a reducing GP. The expression is derived from the approximation of the binomial expansion. Thereby the answer of the expression is an approximation not the true answer.
Perfectly correct.
I 100% agree
I fully agree with you.
writing 0.999... is the same as saying 0 with an infinite number of 9's after the decimal (not the same as any quantifiable number of 9's). the very definition of infinite is "an unbounded quantity that is greater than every real number" (according to mathworld.wolfram.com).
Therefore, no real number exists between 0.999... and 1, where as there would be a number between 9 x 10^-n. You can not add more 9's to 0.999... but you can add more 9's to 9 x 10^-n
-Agreed. This is exactly what I was thinking
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOTE 1: if we multiply both sides with 100000000000000 then left hand side will be 100000000000000 and right side will be 99999999999999.99 and we can continue adding zeros with both the terms still left side is bigger than right hand side albeit bigger by negligible amount.
NOTE 2: 0.99999999999999 approaches 1 but it is not equal to one. on the other hand the left hand side number is 1. therefore, 1>0.9999999999999999999...
How is .9 repeating greater than one? .9 is a decimal, not a whole number. This is common since. It doesn't matter either way if its infinite or what, 1 will be greater than a decimal.
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0.999999... is not greater than 1;,,,,, 0.9999999... = 1
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0.99999 approximates to 1 but it does not EQUAL 1. COMMON SENSE DUDE.
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@Marcel Morin – Sorry but common sense won't cut it in this case, in that way it's similar to the Monty Hall problem.
It might take too long for me to describe the problem in full here, but basically it's this:
You're on a game show with three identical doors, one has a car behind it and the other two have goats. The host tells you to choose a door and you do. The host then opens one of the doors that you did not pick to show you a goat. The problem is as goes; should you change your chosen door to the other unopened one, or should you remain with your initially chosen door?
A: Always swap to the other door.
Your common sense should be telling you that it doesn't matter which door you choose as there's a 50% chance of either door having the car. As you might have guessed, this is not the case.
At the start you had a 1/3 chance to pick the correct door, it seems like you now have a 50/50 chance but you actually don't. Choosing the correct door at the start is only one out of 3 possible initial outcomes, and is the only initial outcome where switching looses as both other doors have goats no matter which door the host opened.
This shows us that in 2/3 chances you are more likely to win by switching your choice to the other door.
If you need more proof consult the wikipedia page
This proves that common sense has nothing to do with maths and often leads you to the wrong answer, as it does in the given 0.999... = 1 problem.
@Marcel Morin – THANK YOU MARCEL!!!! GEEZE
@Marcel Morin – Copying and pasting this everywhere here:
What is 1/3 expressed in decimal form? 0.333333... repeating What is 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 ? 0.9999999... repeating
We can express the exact same equation in fractions as 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 3/3 = 1
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@David Soulodre – In real terms, 1/3 does not equal 0.33333... As we add more and more 3's, we may very well approach 1/3, but never actually achieve 1/3. In life, we may very well accept that for simplicity sake, but the actual equation you ascribe is wrong.
While we take 9 out to infinitum, we will continue to narrow the gap as we get closer and closer to one, but in real terms we will never get to 1. We have no concept of what infinity is, and after a while, it very well may be easier to round to 1, and only when we finally decide to round can we say that 1=.9999.....
At what point do we stop and actually declare that it is 1? That actually depends on what we are actually using the equation for?
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@Charles Means – The point at which we stop and declare that it is 1, is after an infinite number of repeating 9's. This takes an infinite amount of time. i.e. cannot be feasibly done. The beauty of mathematics (and the human mind) is that it (we) can consider (imagine) infinity and determine what occurs e.g. 1 = 0.9... (three 3 dots "ellipsis" means the 9's continue forever). We can't add extra 9's after 0.9... because it has already been done.
How much can you add to .9 repeating to get 1? You can't answer that question because they are the same number. If they were different numbers, there would a difference between them. We accept .3 repeating as 1/3 and .6 repeating as 2/3, so .9 repeating is 3/3, or 1.
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1/3 a d 2/3 is only .3 and .6 repeating respectively because thats what the fraction divides out to be, 3/3 as logical or not as it may seem is 1, and only 1, because the rules state any fraction with the same number in the numerator as the denominator is equal to 1
There is an infinitely small number in between I.e. A=1x10E-i or lim x->i (i=infinitliy). I suck at maths but I know that you are wrong here.
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My first statement is proved.
Theorem.- If x, y are real numbers and x is distintc to y(for example x < y), then there exists z real number, such that x < z < y and z is distinct to x and y.
Proof.- x < 2 x + y < y . ..
"I know that you are wrong here" is not proof. Everything from the "but" onward could have been omitted.
That's only true when using surreal numbers. This site, (or question at least) does not use them
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No surreal numbers. Think about a segment that it's not a point, then the middle point is between them, and I'm not going to comment more. This is not nice...
The Youtuber Vi Hart made two videos about why .999999... is equal to 1, and why it isn't. You should check them out.
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The video describing why it wasn't was an April fools joke.
It's an infinite series, the sum of which is mathematically defined as 1. This reminds me of another question .. if you drop something from a height of 1 foot, at some point it will be at a height of 6 inches. Then 3 inches. Then 1.5 inches. And so on. If the height keeps dividing in half, how does it ever reach the ground?
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It reach the ground because the height do not divide by half. I hate it when people twist a question to make it seems impossible. It does reach 6 inches, 3 inches and 1.5 inches but it did not reach there by dividing but by minus. And minus not equal to divide so it is possible to reach the ground because the question is misleading and wrong.
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Division is just repeated subtraction i.e. 10 ÷ 2 can be interpreted as how many times can we subtract 2 from 10 until we reach 0. Similarly if an object is dropped at some time it will have travelled half the distance, at a later time it will have travelled half the remaining distance an so on ad finitum i.e. If the distance is d then d - (d ÷ 2) - (d ÷ 4) - (d ÷ 8) - (d ÷ 16) - … = 0 otherwise the object doesn't reach the ground.
This is the famous paradox of Achilles and the hare.
How is that possible because it cannot be true can it because i am a qualified maths Teacher and i do not think that answer to the question is correct.
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I'm a qualified Mathematics teacher and 0.9… = 1 is true. Whether or not one is a qualified maths teacher does not alter the fact that 0.9… = 1.
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I am an unqualified math tutor and the answer is correct. There are proofs.
Never seen the first solution before. i like that one. Simple and easy to explain.
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It does not work. It doesn't matter how small it is, there is a difference between point nine repeating and one, because point nine repeating is not a whole number, and one is. And, while 1/3 * 3 = 1, point three repeating times three is not equal to one, it is equal to point nine repeating. If you'd like, you can look at it this way; You have a ten by ten grid. that grid is equal to 1. All the squares on that grid are filled, except one in the corner. Is that still equal to one? The entire grid, when completely filled, is equal to one. But it isn't completely filled, there is one square empty. Or, that one square, is, in and of it self another 10 by 10 grid, this time equal to point one, and that grid is filled up save one square. And the square in that grid is another nearly full 10 by 10 grid equal to point zero one, again filled save one square, that square ANOTHER 10 by ten grid equal to point zero zero one, and so on and so forth for infinity. As long as there is that one square empty, or not entirely full, is the first grid that's equal to one full? as long as there is that infinitely small space in the grid that goes unfilled, it does not equal one. Therefore, there is no POSSIBLE way without rounding that point nine repeating could equal one. or I could just say as they are two differing real numbers there is literally no possible way for them to equal each other. There are three solutions proving those proofs incorrect. If I missed something, I apologize. Have a nice day. =)
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Its an infinite sequence, so the answer is actually one.
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@John Wang – Nope because you will always be 0.infinity+1 0s 1 away from one.
For 2 real nos. x and y we can have x<y or x=y or x>y...If I take x=0.9999... and y=1, we can certainly rule out the last possibility. Now if x=y we are implying that 1 can be divided into 3 parts perfectly which is obviously not the case. So the only possibility left is 0.999...<1. We can certainly use the idea of sum of an infinite G.P. to reach the conclusion that 0.999...=1, but we should keep in mind that this is only a limiting value, no matter how many 9's we add after the decimal the actual real no. that we obtain is always less than 1.
It's sounds like say "the asymptote can be achieved". I don't agree, but I don't make the rules...
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How about thinking "it can be achieved at infinity"? And yes I know that infinity is only a concept, not a number.
That is as saying that when you run against Usain Bolt and let's assume he runs dubbel as fast as you, he will never pass you if you started 10m in front. As: 1) When he's at that 10m point, you are at 15m // 2) When he's at 15m, you are at 17.5 // etc. ... So "proof" that whenever he reaches the point you were, you are allready further away from it, so he never catch up ....
Well, if you agree with this statement, then and only then I agree with yours that 0.9999... = 1
While 0.999... does evaluate to 1, and the statement "1 > 0.999..." is indeed false for differentials that evaluate to 0, this is a political question, not a math question. The fact is, regardless which side of the debate you fall on - and whether we should say "0.999... approaches 1" or "0.999... is 1" is a controversial and open question - I think we can all agree most answers to this question are tragic missed opportunities to introduce the concept of differentials.
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The question doesn't state which numerical system we are working in thus there is no answer. For real numbers .9 repeating equals 1. I think this is the spirit the question was asked in even though it provides the incorrect answer. If we are dealing with rational numbers. 9 repeating doesn't formally exist but if we assume it'd an approximation then .9 repeating will always be less than one. This is a broken question and should be restated, it has nothing to do with politics like some people are asserting.
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I stand corrected, I think your answer is the most correct and clearly stated of all the answers here
NOW ITS A POLITICAL QUESTION- JESUS, MARY AND JOSEPH THIS IS GETTING ENTERTAINING. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What exactly makes it "political"? If what you claimed is true, then that's all there is to it!
you say that there would be exist a real number x such that 0.9999.... < x < 1 ; yes, that number exists, but you can't find it because is a zero with infinites nine decimals; that number belongs to the irrational numbers. Personally I disagree with your point of view. Geetings Mr Templado.
While I agree that the limit tends to one, and I am fine with an arbitrary definition of that limit as the value, I suggest Xeno's paradox as a counter-argument. Instead of the hunter being only allowed to move halfway to the hare, the hunter is now allowed to move a larger fraction (.09, .009, .0009, etc.) of the way to the hare. But, as Xeno pointed out, the hunter still never catches the hare, because there is always just a little bit farther to go.
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Here's my counterargument to this: the hunter can catch the hare. Therefore .9+.09+.009+...=1
0.999... = 1 is true, given that our framework is the standard real numbers. If you begin to expand your definition of numbers to include infinitesimals, as with Conway's surreal numbers, then you might come to a different answer. Within that framework, you could interpret 0.999... to be 1-epsilon, which is a surreal number less than one, but greater than any real number less than one.
We could have a similar argument about whether parallel lines ever intersect. In euclidean geometry, they don't, but in non-euclidean geometry, they might. Mathematicians argued for years, and tried to prove that non-euclidean geometry answers were wrong, until finally they accepted it as another valid branch of geometry.
why did the problem became 9/10/1-1/10?
The inherent problem here is the number only approaches 1 infinitely. It will STILL be less than 1 no matter how many nines there are. Even an infinite number of significant digits wouldn't be enough. Broken question.
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Note quite a "broken question," but you can get different answers based on how you look at it. As far as theoretical math in the real number system is concerned, 0.9 repeating is exactly equal to 1.
It will be enough because it is infinite.
Correct. No further explanation needed.
Try again. Learn limits. The correct answer is true, not false.
When is now? Now is a single point in time between the past and the future that by the time you begin to perceive now it is already past inasmuch as 0.999999_ will NEVER quite = 1.
Dear Guillermo, what about this then :
if 0.99999999.... + 1/100000... = 1 and if 0.9999999 = 1 then 1/1000000... = 0 then 100000.... x 1/100000.... = 0 then 1 = 0
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∞ × 0 is an indetermination
You do not know the value of ∞ × 0 Because there are infinitely many zeros, 1/10000... is one over infinity, or zero. So yes, if 0.9999 = 1 and 1/100000...= 0 then 1 + 0 = 1. That is all you have proven here.
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Talking about infinity isn't needed , just replace 100000... by "a". then a x 1/a = 1 while when you say 1/10000... = 0 and then 10000.... x 1/10000... = 0
idk i had this explained to me in a much simpler way 1/3=0.33... 2/3=0.66... then 3/3=0.99... but 3/3 also equals 1 therefore 0.99...=1?
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The problem with using fractions to prove this is that 0.33 repeating has to be approximated and so it really isn't an exact answer. Using it in a proof isn't accurate either.
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You may write it as approximated, but it is not approximated. It is infinite.
This is based on the fallacy that 1/3=0.33 and is wrong to begin with. 1/3 is close to 0.33 but not equal.
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Not 0.33, but 0.333333... with the 3s going on forever.
Oh my God .....My Teacher taught me wrong ..I have been studying wrong Math these all years..I thought there would be 0.000001 difference at last
What a discussion this turned out to be
You're not right in your fourth step: in fact, every number has 2 distinct decimal representations, this happens in any base in which we are working, even in non-integer bases.
It is a consequence of the base-10 number system. In base 3: 1/3 = 0.1 2/3 = 0.2 3/3 = 1 Every base will give rise to repeating decimals for rational numbers; they're just different for each base.
What if we consider a hyperreal numberline?
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Then perhaps the answer is wrong. Similarly, if we allow complex numbers, then x² + 1 = 0 has a solution, but if x is real, will always be positive.
It doesn't matter how many approximations you put in your equations 0.9 repeating can not equal one because it never reaches it.
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It does at infinity
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Then I suggest that you show infinity and what it is equal to and I will believe your proof...
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@Chris Cheek – You can't, Chris. Infinity is infinite.
The reasoning behind why 1=0.999... being equal is fine. I guess my question would be why would you ever need to write 0.9999... when you could just write 1. The example everyone keeps giving is also asinine 0.333..., why not just write 1/3. The only reason a calculator/computer does it that way is because it doesn't have a choice. The real question why is this alternate way of writing it even necessary?
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Josiah, how would you calculate 1/3 + 0.514362751 ? (hint: I recommend converting the fraction to a decimal)
This is grade school math and that means any number lower than one is in decimal or fractional notation. Therfore 1 is > any decimal or fraction that does not exceed 1 (for fractions the numerator would be greater than the denominator). Math is absolute and unchangeable 1>.999... and so on.
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Where do you get the idea "[m]ath is absolute and unchangeable"?
As far as I can tell, all of mathematics is a human-created invention--following certain internal realities, but still a product of the same brilliant imaginations that brought you religious doctrines and literary epics. Much like a machine built by human ingenuity, it must follow its own limitations and rules of operation; but these are dependent upon how we built it and how well we understand the reality we operate it within.
Do not, however, mistake mathematics (or any analytic system) for anything more than a crude tool fashioned to illuminate something of the existence outside ourselves...no different or infallible than the other myths and legends before it.
Here's my problem with it. Mathematically you can work it to equal one. But just as .999... has an infinite number of 9s, 1.000... has an infinite number of zeros, and no matter how far out you go, in direct comparison, the two never meet at a same digit, and 1.00... will always be the larger value than 0.99...
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What's the difference between the two numbers? What is 1 - 0.999999..., where the 9s go on forever?
you are wrong.
The given solution is correct. 0.99999...=1. To prove, consider the (uncontroversial) proof that 0.33333...=1/3. Let x=0.3333333..., then 10x=3.333333.... Therefore, subtracting, 9x=3 hence x=1/3.
Now just change the 3's to 9's above. This leads to 9x=9 which inplies x=1
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Sorry... just got the problem tonight... but math doesn't imply... math answers in fact... implication is a human answer... twist things long enough you can imply almost anything... and .999999 is only almost 1... to imply anything different would be to try and twist the facts... infinity is only any answer... not a solution
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No, 0.999... is infinite so it isn't almost 1, it is the same as 1.
In addition your assumption of 1/3 is in itself incorrect (and certainly not uncontroversial, you are using an approximation as an equal to. This isn't true.
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0.33333 does not exactly equal one third. It is the same thing as saying that 3 is one third of 10.
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@Laurie Morris – Sorry. The same as saying that 3.3333 is one third of 10.
Your very statement "......consider the (uncontroversial) proof that 0.33333...=1/3........" is dead wrong. 1/3 is a unique real number that exists between 0 and 1. It can only be expressed as an approximation in the decimal system. 1/3 certainly does not = 0.333333333333333.......... and will always be the larger number.
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Get a gun and shoot it to you... 1/3 is an unique real number that... hahaha, don't make me laugh, do you know that there are
ℵ
1
an uncontable number of reals numbers between 0 and 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDZtbBZuqb0
The problem is, the 3s go on forever, so they are the same.
yes, 1/3 does equal 0.333.....
I feel that in all your answers there are a lot of conceptual errors. We definitely don't know about infinity, and you have assumed that 0.999999999... exists. You definitely can't apply the rules of simple algebra when dealing with something relating to infinity in any way(try reading more about Ramanujan's 1+2+3+.....=-1/12). Like, you should check again on the proof you gave by considering an infinite GP, whenever we sum an infinite GP, we never say that the sum is exactly equal to what the formula gave us but that it approaches that sum(you can read about this anywhere and you'll get a anonymous answer). There are similar errors in all parts, as I said earlier, conceptual errors. Though, I must emphasize that this is what I have learnt so far, and I definitely don't know everything, so I am pretty much neutral in this argument and would love to learn something new if I can, provided it is undoubtedly correct though.
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hmm, if we "definitely don't know about infinity" then i wonder how you work with ALL other numbers, like 1.0, because it have infinitely many zeroes at the and, do you assume 1.0 exists?
I can't see 1 being so obvious. I mean: I see it's not a trivial fact, that no number exists between .99999... and 1. I suppose that, just for The sake of completeness I would.like tó see a proof "reductio ad absurdum" type. kind of Let x be such a number .9999...<x<1. And then, deduce some contradiction...
Wrong! It doesn't matter what abstract justification you want to come up with, 0.999... will never be 1, your starting argument is incorrect, since you can always add more 9s at the of the series to find a real number x such that 0.999.. < x < 1.
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Except the 9s go on forever. What could possibly come between point infinite nines and the number one? What is greater than infinity?
1) What is an asymptote? Approach but never reach. This is your 0.999... - not equal but "infinitely close"
2) In a base 10 system, any time you use a decimal point, the value will be less than one, no matter the number of decimal places you want to use. Thus, 0.333... is the base 10 representation of 1/3, a base 3 value.
3) An ad hominem attack doesn't give a better argument. Smart people can disagree without being disagreeable.
Your explanation and reasoning sucks. 1 > 0.9999.. ALWAYS.
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What is wrong with the reasoning? "Sucks" is not mathematical.
Michael, I am afraid that your explanation and reasoning sucks. 1 does equal 0.99999..... ALWAYS.
Hey!
Do you know that no two rational numbers are consecutive? They'll surely have atleast one irrational number between them which disproves your first explanation.
The infinite series expansion is an approximation. (2nd one)
For 3rd and 4th, you cannot always use such multiplications for infinite series as these are not valid always. It may lead ypu to misleading results...
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If no two rational numbers are consecutive, and there are no irrational numbers between 1 and 0.999.... then 1 and 0.999.... must be the same number.
Badda Bing!
Using a practical situation, on a 1 yard wide table, starting at the left edge, I just rolled a marble to the right .999999...9 yard. Did it fall off the table? If not, 1 > .99999999999999999999.
To all people who were wrong like me. if 1 > 0.99999... then 1-0.99999... = x Then what is the value of x ? Do you agree it's 0.0000... so 0 ?
From the geometric perspective can be explained in the asymptotic curve. Even in calculus as well, through limits and continuity, we call it for every x tends to 1 (blah blah), not x=1. When we say x--> 1, it means x can be 0.99999999...., the solution can be approximated as 1. It is actually a polemical issue when the limit goes to infinity. There is no such thing as infinity as we can only think in terms of finite numbers, not infinity. There is no such thing as infinity exists as long as there is a finite value nearby exists..For example, in logarithms, until the domain becomes 0, we cant conclude the function's value infinity. If the domain is 0.00000....1, then we can only say the function tends to infinity, which can be approximated as infinity. The usage of the word impossible for the solution 1 was incorrect as it is indeterminate. The intermediate value would always end up with 1 placed one digit after the last 9. As we do not know where the last 9 goes, the intermediate value if always indeterminate, but not impossible. The solution 2 sounds really illogical to conclude with an absolute statement. One has to understand, Tyler's series of expansions are on the basis of asymptotic nature of the graphs, which means, they always tend to one value, which does not mean they reach out to that value. I don't have to talk about solution 3 at all. The solution goes on the lines with the representation, still one has to assume the 0.99999999..... would somehow after infinity digits, would become 1. We can only see the trend, but we can never see it becoming 1, as it is after infinity digits, it itself says, as the number of digits is indeterminate, we have to agree that 1>0.9999999....
1 is more than 0.99999999....... for all the reasons listed in the comments. The sort of mathematical nonsense exhibited by the "proofs" of those who say it is not is why so many students today are turned off by math and are convinced it takes some kind of special brain to do math.
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What do you mean? Math is not nonsense.
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Bud, maybe it does take some kind of special brain to understand the proofs.
For solution 1, lets assume only integers exist in the world. I know this is a terrible assumption, but lets do it for the fact that it is true. Therefore by your definitions 2=1, as there is no number that exists between 1 and 2, which means we can assume that 1 is 2.
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But you can't just assume that only integers exist!
1.5 is between 1 and 2, so 1≠2.
However, 0.99.... and 1 have no real number in between them, so they are equal!
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mnb ymhnb mnb hn b tvgf,kb hnb hn (me bashing my head on the keybord) 1>.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999.....=true
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@Joshua Bowler – No, the nines go on FOREVER. That's what the ellipsis means.
This is so wrong on so many levels.
Your premise here is flawed. You propose 1 as a theorem to prove your case but that is only valid for real numbers and 0.9999999999... is not real. If it were real then 4 conflicts as this would require >1 decimal representation ergo it disproves your hypothesis by virtue of contradiction.
The numbers are only equal if we approach infinity, which is impossible and hence these are not equal.
What a joke. How condescending to say “it’s ok, getting stumped is part of Learning”. WOW. Respect has been lost today.
So I suppose the problem here is the assumption of those in favor for the statement being false that 0.9p (p means period) is a real number, hence the axioms for real numbers apply. However i feel 0.9p is a transcendental number like pi for instance. Also there is something called the "Dichtheit der reelen Zahlen"(basically meaning the real numbers are a continuum), so even if 0.9p would be a real number , we could always find a number inbetween it and 1 hence making 0.9p < 1.
And if I daresay so myself , apply negative pressure you dogs of a female persuasion
1-0.9999999..... is a number that by definition is both smaller than 1 hence the subtraction from and at the same time larger than 0.999999..... regardless of the number of nines so the proof actually holds 0.99999..... <1-0.9999999..... <1 so 1>0.999999......
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Make the substraction untill infinite and beyond
Same logic as "2-2..... is a number that by definition is both smaller than 2 hence the subtraction from and at the same time larger than 2. Regardless of the number of nines so the proof actually holds 2 <2-2 <2 so 2>2 ." Seems legit.
Bullshit. 1>.999999999999. Not even debatable
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No, it was a number where the 9s go on forever.
Tom, it is not only debatable, it is in fact mathematically provable. Just because you do not know a proof does not mean you are correct.
All it seems you have done is disprove the theorem, not prove the equivalence.
1/3 has no real decimal representation
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...in base 10. In base 3 it is 0.1
Yes it does, it just goes on forever.
This is where proper use of and application of terms and syntax is important. Obviously, .9999999999999.... is 1. I don't think there is much debate. The issue revolves around deception -the use of the of limit definition as lim x-> infinity would clarify what is being said. Basically, 0.9999... is not robust or specific -its lazy.
Just because something is not between two numbers doesn't mean that they are not distinct. Consider the following set: [1,2,3] Sure, 3 is indeed distinct to 1 as 2 is in-between 1 and 3. But 2 is also distinct to 1, despite the fact that there is no integer between these two numbers. Hence, the fact that 0.99999...=1 cannot be proven simply by saying there is no number between these two numbers. Hence the first proof is invalid. I have no qualms about the algebraic proofs.
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The proof works for the reals because the reals are dense. There is always another real number between two distinct real numbers (rationals too). Natural numbers don't have this property.
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The problem remains, though, that it DOESN'T prove there is not a number between the two values. If we are to take the asymptotic view, the value comes perpetually closer to 1--however, the limit of a value is a bounding operation, not an ontological property.
Moreover, doesn't one first have to prove that 0.999... is even in the reals?
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@Joshua Nesseth – What reason do you have to believe otherwise?
So keeping this in mind you would say that 2<1.99999999...? And so on. And eventually you would say that: infinity<than the biggest number.9999...? Nice logic you got but you got the answer wrong. 1>0.999...
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No, 2=1.9999999.... How did you come up with that 2 is less? Or that it would seem that way?
If x = 0.9999...., does 1-x = 0.11111..... If so, then if x=1 , then 1-1 = 0.1111......
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No. Why should 1-x = 0.1111...? Check that by adding the columns.
It would be more like "If x = 0.9999...., does 1-x = 0.00000.....1 If so, then if x=1 , then 1-1 = 0.0000.......1"
If the given solution is true, then 4 - 3 = 0.99999.....
And 1x3 = 2.99999....
And 1 - 1 = 0.0000.....1
I posit this is relatively correct, with the exception of #3.
9.9 repeating - .9 repeating would equal 9, not 9.9999 or you have not subtracted anything.
The debate involves the comprehension of infinity that is beyond the ability of a finite brain.
Let me give you another one - .999 repeating can also be expressed as a solution of an equation for x as f(x) approaches 1. The space between the parabolic curve of the answer set and the value f(x)=1 may become infinitesimally small, but if 1 is the limit of the exponential curve, it is never actually a valid answer of the describing equation. .999 repeating cannot be equal to 1 because geometry does not allow it.
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haha, what are you saying?
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What I'm saying is that the irrational number .999~ is best expressed as the solution to an exponential equation where the solution set approaches 1 - think of it in terms of the expression of a parabolic or other exponential curve where the slope approaches infinity as the solution set approaches 1. No matter how far you extend the curve, or the axis representing the value x=1, the curve and the axis never intersect, they only become infinitely closer and closer as the function is extended in relation to the Y-axis. This is simple 11th-grade Precalculus.
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@Tim Druck – Ok, I now understand you. What happens at the infinite between the slope or assymptote and the curve? well, it's what happening here.
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@Guillermo Templado – There's nothing happening at the infinite because..... It's infinite. You will never reach it. That's the whole concept of infinite, it is never ending. Also your examples of limits, those just reinforce that they are not equal. 1 is the limit, it will never reach it. It will become exponentially close, but we're not looking for close.
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@Tom Koska – This is correct. Just as numbers can be infinitely large, differences can be infinitely small. My background is in reactor physics - I'm a graduate of Navy Nuclear Power School. I can assure you that those very tiny numbers mean a lot when you're calculating mass-energy conversion. 1/1M is a huge number when you multiply it by the square of the speed of light.
@Tim Druck – A parabola is not an exponential function, it is a 2nd degree function. Beyond that though, if you set the asymptote on your function to be 1 then you have set the problem up to give the answer you want. Looking at this problem on a parabolic or exponential function is not valid proof. It can be looked at with simple arithmetic, or a summation with infinite terms.
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@David Soulodre – Arithmetic is even simpler. .999~ cannot be 1 because it's simply not. 1 is a rational number, .999~ is not. Not to mention that the summation (or difference, which is just a negative summation) of two numbers that results in an irrational number will never simply become the rational quotient simply because it extends into infinity. Again, the difference is infinitesimally small. Or, to say it simply, the asymptote cannot be achieved.
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@Tim Druck – All of 0.1111..., 0.2222..., 0.3333..., etc. are rational, so why not 0.9999...?
u r saying 2=1
Um, 1 is greater than any decimals, please fix your problem, your equation is much harder than it needs to be, 1 is larger than .8 or .9 or whatnot no matter how long it repeats. The starting number is zero then continues with extra parts, it will never make a full one unless you round. Chill peeps.
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You weren't burdened with an abundance of schooling, were you?
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Sorry , I didn't know where else to put this , but I agree with her , why complicate things up? I wouldnt say its common sense but It is as simple as it gets and there's no need to use any formulas that has been used here , there's a question is 1> 0.999recurring ? and you simply look at the 0.999recurring and then wait , we see this is simply 0.something and without question it is known to every one who did math in school or people who dedicate their time and effort into becoming experienced in the subject that 0.something no matter even if its a .9 recurring to infinity or not ,will always be less than one , always due to the fact that the 0 is in front of the point , if you all still disagree then I have no simpler way to put it. And just to point it out, the very mention of the words politics reminded me of something I believe in , not just blindly believe , its proven , always remember that politics , law , math , science etc. Basically rules were all created by humans , and humans make mistakes , its seen in law and politics the most , I wouldn't be surprised if it was in maths as well which leads you to believe that .9 recurring is equal to one , and a word of encouragement to everyone is don't be afraid of going against certain rules , if you notice a problem in it or its not just quiet right then try and change it , rules was not carved in this holy stone which we can't dare to interfere with when we were first born here , remember , humans prone to making mistakes , others have to identify and correct it
I'm just curious what "abundance" of schooling you had that you are:
a) willing to be so dismissively rude to someone with a cogent response; &
b) willing to simply discount an idea off-hand without offering any proof to the contrary.
Whatever schooling you had, I would look for more--it obviously wasn't enough to introduce you properly to maths OR manners.
If you know that 0.9999999... + 1/100000... = 1 and if you state that 0.9999999... = 1 Then you state that 1/10000000 = 0 So 1000000... x 1/100000.... = 0 So 1=0 What about that ??
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I'm surprised noone has refuted you yet! [Not really--they have no refutation. It's the curse of poorly-proven theorems...]
You can't just multiply by infinity and divide by infinity at leisure. That's like saying 1 = 0 because 1•0 = 0•0 and the 0's cancel. Just like you can't divide by 0, you can't multiply and divide by infinity.
1) Why is it impossible that ∃ x s.t. ( 0 . 9 ≤ x < 1 ) ? [Also, why must x = 0 . 9 ?]
[If you are, as I assume, invoking the sandwich theorem, you would be assuming ahead of time that 0 . 9 = 9 [ n = 0 ∑ ∞ 1 0 n + 1 1 ] = 1 --an assertion that may, in fact, be true; but one which you must prove BEFORE you assert it, lest you merely beg the question.]
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2) You have proven that the infinite sum converges to this value, but not that the number (as written--i.e. 0 . 9 ) is actually equivalent to the infinite sum you use to cite convergence ( 9 [ n = 0 ∑ ∞ 1 0 n + 1 1 ] (nor, again, do you offer a rigorous proof of the admittedly valid convergence of this infinite sum).
[I do realise the assumption underlying this is that you can simply "rewrite" 0 . 9 as the infinite sum, but I would argue that these two objects have very different ontologies--specifically, one is a representation of a (possibly irrational) number, while the other is a(n, again, admittedly convergent) infinite sum. You must furnish proof of their equivalence BEFORE you assert the equivalence of both values to another independent value.]
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3) The algebra in this is not (necessarily) valid, as you are multiplying a(n, again, possibly) irrational number by 10 (since we are not assuming, a priori, that 0 . 9 is able to be written as a ratio).
If we assume only that x = 0 . 9 = y , we find we can only prove x = y .
If we assume (problematically, of course) that x = 9 [ n = 0 ∑ ∞ 1 0 n + 1 1 ] , the algebra simplifies only back to the original value of 9 [ n = 0 ∑ ∞ 1 0 n + 1 1 ] .
[Basically, while the algebra APPEARS to be accurate, you are substituting (without justification) one distinct value for another--here 1 0 ( 0 . 9 ) for 9 . 9 . While this SEEMS to work for other values of repeating single decimals (e.g. 1 0 ( 0 . 6 ) = 6 . 6 ), this is only valid because the underlying ratio-based math still holds (using the above example, 1 0 ( 9 6 ) = 9 6 0 = 6 . 6 ), something that CANNOT be said (at least without justification) for 1 0 ( 0 . 9 ) , which (as mentioned above) cannot be assumed (beforehand, at least) to be equal to 9 9 (as this would merely be, again, begging the question).]
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4) You assume 0 . 9 ∈ Q ; again, an assumption I am not saying is invalid, only which requires evidentiary support beyond its a priori assumption (which would merely be begging the question).
[Specifically, I am asking for the proof (apart from the conventionally assumed maxim that all repeating decimals are Rational Numbers) that 0 . 9 DOES present itself in a simplified ratio form. Furthermore, the assertion that all repeating decimals are alike is, likewise, not backed up by evidence--only by vague similarity in structure. (Also, cf. #3)]
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Though I am not quite sure what was going through my mind, I ended up writing "real" where I meant "rational" in the above post. I have since tried to fix the mistakes, but in case I missed one or two...
[The intent should be clear, but it is never safe to assume]
This is horseshit. If it's not equal to, it must be either greater than or less than. No matter how many nines you put behind that decimal, it is not equal to, and clearly not greater than. I'm astounded by the crap questions I'm getting lately.
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What if the nines are infinite in number? Not a million or a googol, but infinity. How, then, would 1 be greater? What would the difference be?
1/9 = 0.11111111...
2/9 = 0.22222222...
...
8/9 = 0.88888888...
Therefore
9/9 = 0.99999999...
But also
9/9 = 1
This was the only one that made sense to me
Simplest and cleanest proof for this problem.
I personally think that this solution is invalid (I don't refute the premise).
9/9 can never be equal to 0.9999999...
We know that 1/3 = 0.3333... and hence (1/3)
3 = 0.99999.....
But, (1/3)
3 = 1.
Therefore, 1= 0.999999999....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--HdatJwbQY - This shows why 0.999... does not equal 1.
Part 2 of why 0.999... does not equal 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSlS2xE8rH8
What you have to realize is something that is conceptually difficult for many people. The number 0 . 9 consists of an infinite number of digits after the decimal place. It can not be said the "another nine can always be added" because that would assume the sequence is terminated. There is no number between 0 . 9 and 1. For an even crazier proof, look up the sum of all real numbers. You will find that i = 1 ∑ 3 = − 1 / 1 2 This is an actual proof and has many physical applications. It is not comprehendable and is extremely counterintuitive, but we know it to be true.
actually the sum is not equal, it's just extremely related to -1/12
The sum of all real numbers is obviously not -1/12, they screwed up somewhere. By definition, if a n>0 for all n, sum of a n for n=1 to max of n is positive.
It's not equal. In fact, the sum is a divergent series. However mathematicians have used Zeta Function Regulation to show "mathematically" that this is = -1/12
What you wrote only means the sum of the first 3 i’s and there is no operation. I think you should check your sigma notation rules. Also, these are not really related. One is a simple proof that shows two different representations of the same number. The other is a widely misunderstood concept of physical infinity. The sum of all natural numbers is closely related to -1/12 as shown in many physics examples, but the numberphile proof is a trick and they are leading you to a false conclusion. They assume that the series 1, 0, 1, 0 is convergent at 1/2 when it doesn’t converge at all. It certainly is a cool concept, but you need to learn a little more before chastising people about what is conceptually difficult.
as it is written there it makes no sense. only the sum sign without any content (that should be in terms of i) makes no sense. so I can't say for sur if you are right or not as you missed to write some parts.
You were doing so well until you said the sum of the naturals equals =-1/12
This is an obviously divergent sum but can be associated with the value -1/12. You cannot say it is the value of the sum though.
Isn't that proof nuts? I . . . can't understand it - I guess it is good I can't understand it because If I were able to I'd be psychotic. (I think you wanted your upper number to be infinity, not 3, by the way)
let x=0.99999...
and 10x=9.999999...
If we subtract these two then 9x=9
And then divide by 9: x=1
Therefore 1 = 0.9999... and is not greater than 0.9999...
No if you substract 9.9999... - 0.99999... you got epsilon. Because multiplying by 10 is deleting one 9 after the coma.
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That would be correct if there was a finite number of 9s
Wouldn't .99999... * 9 = 9.9999...1?
Forgive my ignorance. Is this a problem that could be simultaneously answered either way? One of the proofs said there had to be a number that you could add to 0.9999.... to make it equal to one, otherwise there was no difference. Wouldn't that number (or expression) be . 1 ∞ ?
In other words 0 . 9 9 9 9 . . . + . 1 ∞ = 1 therefor 1 > .9999.... ?
It just seems to me that this is an expression that is neither true nor false. It can exist as both true and false based on the perspective one takes.
If you add 0 to any number it is obviously still the same number :) In your case the “ 0.1^inf” is something that when taking the limit becomes 0
EDIT: just see this video https://brilliant.org/wiki/is-0999-equal-1/ try to answer it. what is inbetween 0.999... and 1. you cant. you cant add another 9. there is no digit inbetween 9 and 10. I mean 9 and 0. modular arithmetic. has nothing to do with it.
@Lorin Mueller I mostly agree. 0.999... and .1^∞ both exist, but their values are indiscernible from 1 and 0 respectively. Only, .1^x approaches 0 for all x<∞ and ∞ gets to break rules like things equal what they were approaching. Because why? Because well IDK I might even be wrong but there was otehr better sollutions that dont involve saying that ∞ breaks rules real numbers have to follow.
also, 1/0 = ±∞ if you're not doing limit calculus. people just say it doesn't because it breaks the notion of function notation (no more than 1 y-value for each x-value). You know what else does? √4 = ±2 but that's clearly true.
Also, see my solution pls!
as long as time exists, this will be false !!!
Sorry. May I know what YOU SAID!
i don't understand what you're asking, i just wrote something, didn't say anything. what i wrote is "as long as time exists, this will be false !!!". of course if time was never invented to explain our existence, Math would be moot lol
This business of repeating decimals is an artifact of the number system. Consider base 10: 1/3 = 0.3333...., 2/3 = 0.666666..... and 3/3 = 0.9999999..... But in base 3, 1/3 = 0.1, 2/3 = 0.2, and 3/3 = 1.0 and the whole problem disappears. No need for fancy proofs once you realize that choosing a different base makes the problem evaporate (though it now makes repeating decimals out of other fractions, but the same argument applies. These are artifacts, nothing more.)
This. People seem to find trouble with this statement because they don't realise that 0.9... is just another way to represent 1 in base 10. The fact that values have more than one possible representation shouldn't be so troublesome.
but there will probably be some thing that make trouble in base 3 as well. but I'm really not used to work in other bases so I won't try to find a good example. However division by 2 might cause some issues.
When you subtract a number from itself, the result is zero. For instance, 4 – 4 = 0. So what is the result when you subtract 0.999... from 1? For shorter subtractions, you get:
1.0 - 0.9 = 0.1
1.00 - 0.99 = 0.01
1.000 - 0.999 = 0.001
1.0000 - 0.9999 = 0.0001
1.00000 - 0.99999 = 0.00001
Then what about 1.000... – 0.999...? You'll get an infinite string of zeroes. "But," you ask, "what about that '1' at the end?" Ah, but 0.999... is an infinite decimal; there is no "end", and thus there is no "1 at the end". The zeroes go on forever. And 0.000... = 0.
Then 1 – 0.999... = 0.000... = 0, and 1 = 0.999.
John Adams once stated the following:
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
Regardless, of all the attempts to devise "proofs" of a falsehood, let's simply solve this with facts:
Fact: 1 is greater than 0.9 by a total of 0.1 -- therefore, 1 > 0.99 by 0.01, 1 > 0.999 by 0.001, etc.
Fact: a decimal occurs as a statement of a partial number--in this case, 0.99999... as the decimal statement indicates that no whole number exists, a partial number in and of itself cannot hold a greater value than a whole number.
Fact: No matter who infinitely small the repetition of decimals becomes, the difference between 1 and the decimal number becomes infinitely smaller, but never truly disappears.
Conclusion: 1 IS greater than 0.99999..., if only ever by an increasingly smaller amount, and I am greatly concerned about a scientific and mathematical mindset that would so openly disregard facts and evidence in attempt to provide a "proof" to a falsehood.
In fact all the debates here are : why are we defining 0.9999... = lim x->infinity (1- (1/(10^x)). But we know all that the concept of the limit mean that the fonction is approching a real L, but it is clear that is it is not L. By convention (in our mind we say it is L, but if it were the case could be two representation with the same attribute; then it is a math philosophy problem). Remember the finite limit is ∀ε>0 , ∃α>0 tel que (∀x∈I et |x−x0|<α) ⇒ |f(x)−l|<ε|. The existance of a real 0.9999... mean the existance of ε. This is what is the difference between 1 and 0.999... For 1 : ε =0 , for 0.9999 : ε is a real not equal to 0.
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it's convention that if L is the limit of a sequence a(n), then the limit for n->infinity of a(n) is L. that is literally what 0.999...=1 says.
Peopl just are too dumb to believe that or understand any proof of that. Yet they also can't explain or find any of the numbers (that would need to exist then too) between 0.999... and 1.
The proof would go: X=1/3 X=.33... 10x=3.33... 9x=3 9*1/3=3 is a true statement. Every algebra text book ever supports this statement.
Think of os basis addition. .3333333333 .3333333333
.9999999999
It can never equal 1 unless you round
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What about .999...=.9+.09+.009 +...... Infinite geometric progression for which sum is .9/(1-.1) =1
Mathematically it works
I think you are missing what the dots after represent. It is a non-terminating decimal.
Honestly it feels like instead of math skills this question is rather "I wonder if you know the little trivia I know :^)"
Most confusion comes from not fully understanding the notation used in the problem. Many people will often automatically think that 0 . 9 9 9 9 9 . . . represents an arbitrary term of the sequence a n = ∑ i = 1 n 1 0 i 9 , and not the limit lim n → ∞ ∑ i = 1 n 1 0 i 9 . That is, they will consider an arbitrary but only finite number of decimal places. Obviously, every term of the sequence ( a n ) is strictly less than 1 , but the limit lim n → ∞ ( a n ) is exactly equal to 1 . Knowing in advance that the ellipsis means a limit is all that is necessary to correctly solve the problem.
Let x = .99999...
Hence, 10x = 9.99999...
10x - x = 9x = 9.99999... - .99999... = 9
Thus, 9x = 9
And, x = 9 9 = 1
Hence proven.
1/3 = 0.3333333..... 2/3 = 0.6666666..... 3/3 = 0.9999999.... = 1
Proof: 1/9=0.111111111... 8/9=0.888888888... 1/9+8/9=9/9 9/9=1 0.111111....+0.8888888..... = 0.99999999.... 0.99999999...=1
1 and 0.9999... are just different ways to represent the same thing. Just like 1/3 and 0.3333...
This could be proved in yet another simple way , easy enough to do in some seconds itself.
As 3 1 = 0.3333333333...................
Multiplying with 3 on the both sides , simply results
1= 0.99999999999999999............
Basically, if 0.9999...... is infinitely going on forever, then at some point it has to reach 1. Like, take a square for example. You half it, and color one section. Then you half the uncolored section, then color one of THOSE sections. Continue. At some point, all of the square's going to be colored. Because I explained this using an enclosed space, it makes more sense right? Therefore, 0.99999.... is equal to 1.
Well don't bring infinite sums with infinite 9's cuz it is confusing for some other people. Still nice try for explaining it to people
1/3 equals to 0.33333333333333... , 2/3 equals to 0.66666666666666... , then 3/3 in theory should equal to 0.999999999999... but 3 divided by 3 is 1, therefore 0.999999999...= 1
Though I did get this question right, I must admit it is not very well written, and it really needs the repeating symbol over the decimal on the right and not the ellipses. The use of ellipses is quite disingenuous, as it technically means "an omission." It does not mean that something is being repeated. It could be .999998 for all we know, and not the 3/3 the question attempts to imply.
1/9 = .11111... 2/9 = .22222... 3/9 = .33333...(3/9 = 1/3) 4/9 = .44444... 5/9 = .55555... 6/9 = .66666... (6/9 = 2/3) 7/9 = .77777... 8/9 = .88888... 9/9 = .99999... (9/9 = 3/3 = 1)
Therfore .99999... = 1.
0.999999=x so 9.9999999=10x so 10x-x=9X 9X=9 So x=1
I don't think 9x=x. if you substract 9.9999... - 0.99999... you got epsilon. Because multiplying by 10 is deleting one 9 after the coma.
I put 0.99999..... horizontally into my phone calculator and when I flipped it vertically I showed 1.00000...
3 1 = 0.33333...
If you multiply both sides by 3 you get:
3 3 = 0.99999...
1 = 0.99999...
1 = 1 0 9 + 1 = 1 0 9 + 1 0 9 + 1 0 9 + 1 0 9 + ⋯ = 1 0 9 + 1 0 0 9 + 1 0 0 0 9 + 1 0 0 0 0 9 ⋯ = 0 . 9 + 0 . 0 9 + 0 . 0 0 9 + 0 . 0 0 0 9 + ⋯ = 0 . 9 9 9 9 . . .
Your answer is incorrect. Although each 1 of the 10 are each tending(to infinity), to 1, it does NOT mean that each number IS 1. For example - let's just use 3 decimal places then 10x 0.999 (to infinity) is not 10. It is 9.999. What the proposer has done is made 9 of the 'ones' into one each and then made the 'one' left over 0.999 to infinity. It doesn't matter how infinitesimally small it is, you have used two different values for one. Johanna below went on to cite some rubbish about read the proof. This is simple, you accept that 0.999 is not one. Why are you trying to say 0.999to infinity is one? Question, if this was graphed, would the line ever converge with the axes? No. It tends to it but will never touch it.
The whole point is that there are infinitely many 9's, it never ends and thats why they are equal.
There are countless proofs in this thread and on the internet, go read some.
The problem with your answer is that you use the word "IS", which implies identity, while the proofs given use the word "equals" (as signified by the '='-sign). The numbers 1 and 0.9999... have equal value but are not identical because 1 is a natural number (ℕ) while 0.999... is not (IMO).
1 = 1/3 + 1/3 +1/3 = .333... + .333... + .333... = .999...
I think one of the simplest ways to think of this is that x-y=0 only if x=y, and if you subtract 1 - 0,999... the result is a 0 followed by an infinite number of zeros and a 1 in infinity, which is exactly the same as 0. Therefore 0,999... must be equal to 1.
.333333......=1/3
.666666......=2/3
.999999......=3/3=1
Wrong! .333333 does not exactly equal 1-3.
There are many different proofs of 0.9999..=1 and here is one of them:
1/3=0.3333... 1=3 * 1/3 = 3 * 0.3333... = 0.99999...
Hence,1=0.9999...
There are many solutions to this problem. The simplest is this:
1/9 = .11111111111111...
9/9 = .999999999999...
Note that 1/9 = 0.11111... So 9/9 = 1 = 0.9999.... Thus they are equal.
The difference between 0.999999... and 1 is 0.00000000...1
but since there are infinite zeros you never get to the 1 at the end
so 0 . 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 . . . 1 = 0
so they must be the same number
/
suppose x = 0 . 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 . . .
multiply by 10 1 0 x = 9 . 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 . . .
subtract x 9 x = 9
divide by 9 x = 1
Um... it isn't a "Debate" anymore than is 2+2>4? It is a fact... 1/9=.111111, 2/9=.22222,... 8/9=.88888, so 9/9=.99999=1.
Either answer is correct depending on what you want to believe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-fUDqXlmHM
That's not how maths works.
1/9 = 0,11111...
2/9 = 0,22222...
3/9 = 0,33333...
4/9 = 0,44444...
5/9 = 0,55555...
6/9 = 0,66666...
7/9 = 0,77777...
8/9 = 0,88888...
Then, 9/9 = 0,99999... = 1
May you should reach the answer from your teacher and ask him
Simply explained: Calculate and read the Decimal for 1/9, 2/9, 3/9, 4/9… 8/9 then what is 9/9? We know this is one, but judging by the pattern, it is also .9999…
1-0.999... is 0.000... there are infinite 0's after that decimal point there is no secret 1 at the end. so what's the difference between 0 and 0.0 and 0.000 and 0.0000....
If you allow infinitesimals (which some branches of number theory do have) then yes there is a difference. Generally though infinitesimals are not used and this there is 0 difference between 0.999... and 1
The easiest solution that even a fifth grader could do is as follows 0.99999...=x 10x=9.9999... 10x-x=9.9999...-0.9999... 9x=9 x=1 so without doing a bunch of crazy stuff we can say 1=0.9999... also ... means to infinity
IF 1 can be expressed as 3 x 1/3 or 3 x 0.3333333...
AND 3 x 0.3333333... can also be expressed as 0.99999999...
THEN 1 = 0.9999999...
What do you get by proving this?? 0.9999999.....=1 1.0000000.....=1.00000000...001 1.00000000...001=1.0000000....002 Series goes on.... And on You get 0.999999999......=infinite
It comes down to the axioms of mathematics. Really the basis is the statement: x-y=0 if and only if x=y.
This is a fundamental axiom that is assumed as true mathematically.
So, let's assume 1 = 0 . 9 . That means, there exists a number z such that 0 < z < 1- 0 . 9
Now your goal is to find z. This would prove, that 1 is not equal to 0 . 9 .
Unfortunately, no matter how small you choose z to be, because 0 . 9 extends infinitely (think decimal places), we can never pick z such that 0<z<1- 0 . 9
While I agree with all of these proofs, I remember my calculus and how an infinite number of decimals will still never reach a whole number, even though we assume that whole number. He concept is that it gets ever close but never reaches. Is this a paradox?
1/3=.3333..., so 1=.9999..
1/3 = 0,33333... We multiple both sides by 3, which gives us 1 = 0,99999...
Repeating decimals put into fractions are over 9. For example, 0.333333333.... is 3/9. 9/9 is 1.
If 1/3 is 0.3333..... and 3 times 1/3 is 1 then 3 times 0.3333..... is 1 meaning 0.9999..... is equal to 1
x=0.99999... 10x= 9.99999... 9x = 10x - x = 9.99999... - 0.99999... = 9 9x = 9 x = 1
Its basic mats. 1/3=0.33333333... (infinite number of 3). If u multiply both sides by 3 you get 3/3=0.9999999... 3/3=1 . As simple as that. Prove me wrong.
Okay [ 3 1 ↦ 0 . 3 ] , but it is NOT the case that 0 . 3 ↦ 3 1 .
This derives from the fact that we define 0 . 3 as 3 1 because of the computational reality of ( 1 / 3 ) ; there is nothing in 0 . 3 that offers us no basis for asserting it "should" be equal to anything rational, or even algorithmic!
The real problem here, of course, is proving that it IS a (algebraic, rational) number and that that number is equal to one. All proofs so far are flawed. Offer up one that isn't, and you can rest your case. Until then, you have A LOT more to prove.
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You actually can get 1/3 from the 0.3 recurring, just let it equal x and solve for it.
1/3=0.3333... repeating. So 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 is equivalent to 0.3333... + 0.3333... + 0.3333...
1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 3/3 = 1 0.3333... + 0.3333... + 0.3333... = 0.9999...
Therefore 0.9999... = 3/3 = 1
1/3 = .3333... on forever. 1/3 •3=1, but .3333...•3=.9999..., so 1=1/3•3=.3333...•3=.9999...
There is a very simple proof for this 1/3+2/3=3/3=1 1/3=0.333333... 2/3=0.666666... 1/3+2/3=0.333333...+0.666666...=0.999999=1
0.33333.... = one third; 0.66666.... = two thirds; therefore 0.99999.... = three thirds; three thirds = one; so 1 is not greater than 0.99999....
This is how I came to the conclusion that .9999999... = 1:
1 = (3/3) = .9999999...; therefore, 1 = .999999...
More evidence:
(1/3) + (1/3) + (1/3) = (3/3) which is the same as saying .333333... + .333333... + .333333... = .999999...
Conclusion:
.999999... is simply a less convenient way to write 3/3 (or "1"). I don't see any practicality in choosing .999999... (infinitely repeating 9s) over simply using the fraction equivalent or even more simply, just writing "1"!
Here's another way of looking at it.
.9 repeating = .9 + .09 + .009 + ...
Thus, it is a geometric series. A sum of a geometric series if a/1-r. a is the first term in the series, and r is what each term changes by.
So, a is .9, and r is .1
.9/1-.1 = .9/.9 = 1
The only problem with that, of course, is that it can be shown that ∑ n = 1 in f 9 ( 1 0 n 1 ) = 1 ; so, by assuming the decimal point is a geometric series, you already assume the answer.
Add to this the fact that any infinite sequence is, itself, the LIMIT of that infinite sequence, the claim of "equivalence" is problematic--the limit of a function at a value does NOT imply the value is equivalent to it's limit, only that the limit (if it exists) is that value. Quite often (it could be argued here, as well) the value of the limit does not exist within the domain of the function; this is especially true when the "value" we are approaching is infinity (a NON-value).
Finally, until you can offer a computational number (as a ratio, or as a distinct value) that gives the value of 0 . 9 , you have not offered a "proof".
1/3 = .333... Multiply both sides by 3. 1=.999
The alternative, 1/9=.111... *9 1=.999...
0.66666... = 6/9 = 2/3
0.55555... = 5/9
0.99999... = 9/9 = 1
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%3E.999
Wolfram alpha has the answer.
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It's not 0.999 though. It's 0.9 recuring
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Than it's .99999 repeating? figured it was not repeating.
It does not equal 1 its AN APPROXIMATION OF 1
You are giving too much power to the three dots (...)
The problem with this is, though, you are assuming the answer without having any logical progression.
If 9 6 = 0 . 6 & 9 5 = 0 . 5 , it is not necessary that 9 9 = 0 . 9 .
It is, of course, necessary that 9 9 = 1 ; yet, this does not necessitate either of these also are equal to 0 . 9 .
[The implied connection, of course, is based upon the reversal of the assertions in the above formulation--specifically, it is NOT (necessarily) that x = 0 . 6 ⟹ x = 9 6 , but INSTEAD x = 9 6 ⟹ 0 . 6 , a very important distinction to make.]
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Joshua you don't know what you are talking about.
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PROOF
Let 0 . 9 9 9 9 . . . . = x . Then 1 0 x = 9 . 9 9 9 9 . . . . .
Now subtracting the first equation from the second, 9 x = 9 ⇒ x = 1 ⇒ 0 . 9 9 9 9 . . . . = 1
Alternate way :
1 0 9 + 1 0 2 9 + 1 0 3 9 + 1 0 4 9 + … = 1 − r a = 1 − 1 0 1 1 0 9 = 1