Nested Square Roots

Algebra Level 5

If 4 + 4 4 + 4 = a + b c \sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-\sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-\cdots}}}}=\frac{a+\sqrt{b}}{c} such that the fraction in the RHS cannot be simplified any further and b b is square free and a , b , c a,b,c are all integers, what is the value of a + b + c a + b + c ?

Extra Credit: Post a solution that can do it by hand without the requirement of quartic formula.


The answer is 16.

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4 solutions

Satvik Golechha
Jul 28, 2014

Let 4 + 4 4 + 4 . . . . . = x \displaystyle \sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-\sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-.....}}}}=x .

Also, let 4 4 + 4 4 + . . . . . = y \displaystyle \sqrt{4-\sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-\sqrt{4+.....}}}}=y .

Then we see by observation that:-

4 + y = x \displaystyle \large \sqrt{4+y}=x

4 x = y \displaystyle \large \sqrt{4-x}=y

Now whole square both equations and subtract to get:-

x 2 y 2 = x + y \displaystyle x^2-y^2=x+y , which, in turn, means x y = 1 \displaystyle x-y=1 . Put y = x 1 \displaystyle y=x-1 in square of equation 2 \displaystyle 2 , to get the final equation- x 2 x 3 = 0 \displaystyle x^2-x-3=0

Apply Sridharacharya's Rule (the quadratic formula) to get x = 1 + 13 2 \displaystyle x=\frac{1+\sqrt{13}}{2} . Note that x \displaystyle x can't be the other root 1 13 2 \displaystyle \frac{1-\sqrt{13}}{2} because x \displaystyle x is positive.

Finally, Comparing it with a + b c \displaystyle \frac{a+\sqrt{b}}{c} , we get a = 1 \displaystyle a=1 , b = 13 \displaystyle b=13 , and c = 2 \displaystyle c=2 , so-

a + b + c = 16 \displaystyle a+b+c=\boxed {16}

Great solution ... I also solved it the same way.

By the way, I noticed that the solution,

x = 1 + 13 2 x = \frac{1+\sqrt{13}}{2} is also the solution to: x = 3 + 3 + 3 + . . . . . x=\sqrt{3+\sqrt{3+\sqrt{3+.....}}}

Michael Fischer - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Thanks... BTW How did you notice that? Did you try all of them?

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

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I was trying the to solve the problem by converting the given nested square roots into the simpler form, r + r + r + . . . \sqrt{r+\sqrt{r+\sqrt{r + ...}}} since its value is 1 + 1 + 4 r 2 \frac{1 + \sqrt{1+4r}}{2} .

I then found r by equating the solution, 1 + 13 2 \frac{1+\sqrt{13}}{2} and 1 + 1 + 4 r 2 \frac{1 + \sqrt{1+4r}}{2} getting r=3.

Michael Fischer - 6 years, 10 months ago

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@Michael Fischer Oh man thanks for that formula. :) :)

Kent Adoniram Paguinto - 6 years, 10 months ago

brilliant!!!!!!!!!

Adarsh Kumar - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Thanks... :D

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

brilliance dedicated to you sir

vignesh iyer - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Nah, not "sir", thanks BTW.

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 8 months ago

Thanks for solving u are awesome! ....:)

Ayush Rajput - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Thanks. (this is not the first time I am writing this because 'thanks' is too small!)

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

i salute u

Sharan Raj - 6 years, 10 months ago

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LOL! And I salute @Krishna Ar

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

FANTASTIC IDEA! KEEP IT UP.

Prabir Chaudhuri - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Thanks, I will. :D

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

One of the most beautiful solutions I've seen here!

Dieuler Oliveira - 6 years, 10 months ago

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I'm embarrassed, thanks.. :D

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

thanks for the solution , you're genius

Aman Saurav - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Not me, but @Krishna Ar is a genius.

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 8 months ago

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-_- Stop this , will you? 74 upvotes! Mighty _!

Krishna Ar - 6 years, 8 months ago

Did the same way

Figel Ilham - 6 years, 10 months ago

fabulous but i got a question how come u said by observation?? how a non mathematician can realize??

Waleed Karori - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Observation is nothing mathematical. It can only be achieved by observing...

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

nice one , this is seems to be correct and right direction

Vinod Namdeo - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Thanks... :D

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

i solved the same way ,and result which we found is awesome x = y + 1 mathematics is awesome love it !

anurag pandey - 6 years, 10 months ago

Truly a brilliant solution.

Jesus Ulises Avelar - 6 years, 3 months ago

Equation 2, mention in the eighth line is 4 + y = x . \sqrt{4+y}=x. .

Niranjan Khanderia - 5 years, 11 months ago

You need to check that the solution converges to the correct value by approximating

Arulx Z - 4 years, 9 months ago

but if we write eqn 1 as x2-y2=4 and eqn 2 as x2+y2=4 then we will get x=_+2 and y=0 why is that ?

gaurav agrawal - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Observe closely... Equation 1 gives x 2 y = 4 x^2-y=4 , and not x 2 y 2 = 4 x^2-y^2=4 ..

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

@Agnishom Chattopadhyay Like this?

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Awesome! hats off to you!

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 6 years, 10 months ago

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Thanks! Was it the same method which you wanted?

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

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@Satvik Golechha I did not know what I wanted. I knew the solution because I solved the quartic in Mathematica. Thanks for throwing light upon an elegant approach.

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 6 years, 10 months ago

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@Agnishom Chattopadhyay Oh! BTW In which class are you? Have you given RMO? Any tips?

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

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@Satvik Golechha I am in Class XI-CBSE-Science. I had given RMO but it was too hard for me. Chances are that you'll do better :)

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 6 years, 10 months ago

Let x = 4 + 4 4 + 4 . . . x=\sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-\sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-...}}}} . Square both sides and substract 4 4 :

x 2 4 = 4 4 + 4 4 + . . . x^2-4=\sqrt{4-\sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-\sqrt{4+...}}}}

Square and substract 4 4 again:

( x 2 4 ) 2 4 = 4 + 4 4 + 4 . . . (x^2-4)^2-4=-\sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-\sqrt{4+\sqrt{4-...}}}}

We need x > 2 x>2 because the square roots of positive numbers only can be positive.

Note that the RHS is just x -x , so:

x 4 8 x 2 + 16 4 = x x 4 8 x 2 + x + 12 = 0 x^4-8x^2+16-4=-x \Rightarrow x^4-8x^2+x+12=0

Now, that equation factors as: ( x 2 + x 4 ) ( x 2 x 3 ) = 0 (x^2+x-4)(x^2-x-3)=0

By solving each factor with the quadratic formula, we get four solutions:

x 1 , 2 = 1 ± 17 2 x_{1,2}=\dfrac{-1 \pm \sqrt{17}}{2}

x 3 , 4 = 1 ± 13 2 x_{3,4}=\dfrac{1 \pm \sqrt{13}}{2}

From these, the one that we want is x = 1 + 13 2 x=\dfrac{1 + \sqrt{13}}{2} , because is greater than 2 2 . So, we have a = 1 a=1 , b = 13 b=13 , c = 2 c=2 and a + b + c = 16 a+b+c=\boxed{16} .

How do you factor that equation?

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 6 years, 10 months ago

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First I tried to factor that by trial and error and I got it right, but there is another method.

We'll try to factor x 4 8 x 2 + x + 12 = 0 x^4-8x^2+x+12=0 into the form ( x 2 + P x + Q ) ( x 2 P x + R ) = 0 (x^2+Px+Q)(x^2-Px+R)=0 . Expand it and make it match with our equation:

Q + R P 2 = 8 Q + R = P 2 8 Q+R-P^2=-8 \Rightarrow Q+R=P^2-8

P ( R Q ) = 1 R Q = 1 P P(R-Q)=1 \Rightarrow R-Q=\dfrac{1}{P}

Q R = 12 QR=12

Sbstract and sum the first equation and the second one to solve for Q Q and R R respectively, and substitute them in the third one. We get:

Q = P 2 8 1 P 2 Q=\dfrac{P^2-8-\frac{1}{P}}{2}

R = P 2 8 + 1 P 2 R=\dfrac{P^2-8+\frac{1}{P}}{2}

Substitute and simplify:

( P 2 8 1 P 2 ) ( P 2 8 + 1 P 2 ) = 12 \left(\dfrac{P^2-8-\frac{1}{P}}{2}\right)\left(\dfrac{P^2-8+\frac{1}{P}}{2}\right)=12

P 6 16 P 4 + 16 P 2 1 = 0 P^6-16P^4+16P^2-1=0

In that last equation the sum of all coefficients is 0 0 , so it factors as:

( P 2 1 ) ( P 4 15 P 2 + 1 ) = 0 (P^2-1)(P^4-15P^2+1)=0

So, P = 1 P=1 . Obtain that Q = 4 Q=-4 and R = 3 R=-3 . Hence, x 4 8 x 2 + x + 12 = ( x 2 + x 4 ) ( x 2 x 3 ) x^4-8x^2+x+12=(x^2+x-4)(x^2-x-3) .

With this, we note that there are three ways to factorice that polynomial, but in this case, only one with rational coefficients.

Alan Enrique Ontiveros Salazar - 6 years, 10 months ago

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I'm sorry but I didn't understand how, if the sum of all coefficients is 0, you can factor it as ( P 2 1 ) ( P 4 15 P 2 + 1 ) = 0 (P^{2} - 1)(P^{4} - 15P^{2} +1) = 0

Adithya Ks - 6 years, 10 months ago

Against the requirement but I think never mind.

u 3 16 u 2 + 16 u 1 = 0 u^3 - 16 u^2 + 16 u - 1 = 0 is actually the deterministic equation behind.

With simplest 1 despite 6.69656263406253E-02 and 1.49330343736593E+01,

( x 2 (x^2 - u x \sqrt{u} x + u 8 2 \frac{u - 8}{2} + 1 2 u ) \frac{1}{2\sqrt{u}}) ( x 2 (x^2 + u x \sqrt{u} x + u 8 2 \frac{u - 8}{2} - 1 2 u ) \frac{1}{2\sqrt{u}})

( x 2 x 7 2 + 1 2 ) ( x 2 + x 7 2 1 2 ) (x^2 - x - \frac72 + \frac12)(x^2 + x - \frac72 - \frac12)

( x 2 x 3 ) ( x 2 + x 4 ) (x^2 - x - 3)(x^2 + x - 4) is arrived.

Formation of two quadratics is not sole but the 4 roots shall always be the same. In this situation, we can choose the simplest u1. Otherwise:

u2 = 6.69656263406253E-02

p2 = -0.2587771750766

q2 = -2.03435296155752

r2 =0.2587771750766

s2 = -5.89868141210186

α \alpha = 1.56155281280811

β \beta = -1.30277563773151

γ \gamma = 2.30277563773248

δ \delta = -2.56155281280908

OR

u3 = 1.49330343736593E+01

p3 = -3.86432845054083

q3 = 3.59590577436807

r3 = 3.86432845054083

s3 = 3.33712859929123

α \alpha = 2.30277563773198

β \beta = 1.56155281280885

γ \gamma = -1.30277563773201

δ \delta = -2.56155281280882

Please ignore computing errors for slight different answers.

Lu Chee Ket - 5 years, 7 months ago

@Agnishom Chattopadhyay I have the most elegant solution, going to post it..

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 10 months ago

bro ,,can u tell me ..how did u factorise x^4+........= (....)(...)

Sourendranath Roy - 6 years, 10 months ago

I did it this way. Excelent.

Carlos David Nexans - 6 years, 10 months ago

Thanks superb solution......

Manish Chowdhury - 6 years, 10 months ago

Did the same, nice solution

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 9 months ago

I did the same...

Hemel Sarkar - 5 years, 11 months ago

I have seen something similar before. But a very straight forward way to do this is we say x =sqrt (4+Sqrt(4-x)) square both sides and subtract to get x^2-4=sqrt(4-x). Now we let this be a quadratic in 4. For completely psychological reasons we will let y=4, and proceed to square both sides and collect all terms as a quadrartic in y. What we get is the following y^2-(2x^2 +1)y+x^4+x=0. The fact that the answer is in the given form is a clue that it is factorable into two quadratics since it doesnt have any cubed or fourth roots. No we need two roots that add to 2x^2+1 and multiply to x^4+x. So we go about this by factoring x^4+x as x(x^3+1)=x(x+1)(x^2-x+1)=(x^2+x)(x^2-x+1). These work. So in fact for any y this thing will factor as (y-(x^2+x))(y-(x^2-x+1) at which point you plug in four and proceed with quadratic formula.

thanks brillant!

Jun Arro Estrella - 6 years, 9 months ago
Santiago Hincapie
Jul 25, 2015

Let 4 + 4 4 + 4 . . . = S \displaystyle \sqrt { 4+\sqrt { 4-\sqrt { 4+\sqrt { 4-... } } } } =S

So 4 + 4 S = S \displaystyle \sqrt { 4+\sqrt { 4-S } } =S

Then \displaystyle 0={ S }^{ 4 }-8{S}^{4}+S+12

So 0 = ( S 2 S 3 ) ( S 2 + S + 4 ) \displaystyle {0}=({S}^{2}-S-3)({S}^{2}+S+4)

Now \displaystyle (S-\frac { 1 }{ 2 } )^{ 2 }-\frac { 13 }{ 4 } ={ S }^{ 2 }-S-3

Finally S = 1 2 + 13 4 = 1 + 13 2 \displaystyle S=\frac { 1 }{ 2 } +\sqrt { \frac { 13 }{ 4 } } =\frac { 1+\sqrt { 13 } }{ 2 } .

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