Nested Squareroot

Calculus Level 2

Consider the function

f ( x ) = x + x + x + . f(x) = \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\cdots}}}.

If the gradient of the tangent of the function at x = 12 x = 12 can be expressed as a b , \frac{a}{b}, where a a and b b are coprime positive integers, what is the value of a + b ? a + b? .


The answer is 8.

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12 solutions

Shaun Loong
Dec 23, 2013

First step , we shall do a little algebra manipulation. We see that: f ( x ) = x + x + x + . . . f\left ( x \right )= \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+...}}} f 2 ( x ) = x + x + x + . . . f^{2}\left ( x \right )= x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+...}} f 2 ( x ) x = x + x + . . . f^{2}\left ( x \right )- x = \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+...}} Note that this is same as the initial equation we're manipulating. Thus we may form an equation: f 2 ( x ) x = f ( x ) f^{2}\left ( x \right )- x = f\left ( x \right ) f 2 ( x ) f ( x ) x = 0 f^{2}\left ( x \right )-f\left ( x \right )-x=0 Factorise this equation and we obtain: ( f ( x ) 4 ) ( f ( x ) + 3 ) = 0 \left ( f\left ( x \right )-4 \right )\left ( f\left ( x \right )+3 \right )=0 Therefore, f ( x ) = 4 f\left ( x \right )=4 or f ( x ) = 3 f\left ( x \right )=-3

Second step , now we want to find the equation for the gradient of the function of x. Therefore, we have to find f ( x ) f'\left ( x \right ) . We may find this using implicit differentiation on the equation: f 2 ( x ) f ( x ) x = 0 f^{2}\left ( x \right )-f\left ( x \right )-x=0 2 f ( x ) f ( x ) f ( x ) 1 = 0 2f\left ( x \right )f'\left ( x \right )-f'\left (x \right )-1=0 f ( x ) ( 2 f ( x ) 1 ) = 1 f'\left ( x \right )\left ( 2f\left ( x \right ) -1\right )=1 f ( x ) = 1 2 f ( x ) 1 f'\left ( x \right )=\frac{1}{2f\left ( x \right )-1}

Third step , plugging the value of f ( x ) = 3 f\left ( x \right )=-3 into f ( x ) = 1 2 f ( x ) 1 f'\left ( x \right )=\frac{1}{2f\left ( x \right )-1} will result in a negative answer, which is contradiction since a a and b b are positive values. Therefore, we plug in f ( x ) = 4 f\left ( x \right )=4 into f ( x ) = 1 2 f ( x ) 1 f'\left ( x \right )=\frac{1}{2f\left ( x \right )-1} . Hence: f ( x ) = 1 2 ( 4 ) 1 f'\left ( x \right )=\frac{1}{2\left ( 4 \right )-1} f ( x ) = 1 7 f'\left ( x \right )=\frac{1}{7}

Our desired answer is 1 + 7 1+7 = 8 \boxed{8}

f(x)=-3 can also be rejected by giving the argument that square root of a positive number will be a positive number.

Akshit Kumar - 7 years, 5 months ago

same :)

Andrias Meisyal - 7 years, 5 months ago

Perfect. It's a really great answer. Thank you so much

Saad Haider - 7 years, 4 months ago

Thanks Brother.. Great Answer

Saqib Munir - 7 years, 4 months ago

When you factorise, in the sixth passage, you assumed x=12. You should have written (f(12)-4)(f(12)-3)=0 because the equation is Not True for all x. Great Work anyway imho.

Paolo Bassi - 4 years, 9 months ago

bt the question says the two no.s are coprime.. 1 and 7 are not coprime.infact 1 is not a prime no.

Debolena Basak - 7 years, 3 months ago

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coprime numbers are numbers who's common factors are only 1. Since the common factors of 1 and 7 is 1, therefore they're coprime. :)

Shaun Loong - 7 years, 3 months ago
Romeo Gomez
Jan 5, 2014

The gradient of the tangent of the function f is f ( x ) = f ( x ) x = d f ( x ) d x = f ( x ) , \nabla f(x) =\frac{\partial f(x)}{\partial x}=\frac{df(x)}{dx}=f'(x), so let's work on the function by doing some algebra. First of all write it like this form, f ( x ) = x + f ( x ) , f(x)=\sqrt{x+f(x)}, derivind using the chain rule f ( x ) = 1 + f ( x ) 2 x + f ( x ) , f'(x)=\frac{1+f'(x)}{2\sqrt{x+f(x)}}, not a lot of algebra we can clear easily f'(x) and get this form f ( x ) = 1 2 x + f ( x ) 1 , f'(x)=\frac{1}{2\sqrt{x+f(x)}-1}, and finally doing the substitution on x=12 f ( 12 ) = 1 2 12 + f ( 12 ) 1 , f'(12)=\frac{1}{2\sqrt{12+f(12)}-1}, but we have another problem here; what is f(12) ? So by the definition f ( 12 ) = 12 + f ( 12 ) , f(12)=\sqrt{12+f(12)}, squaring both sides f ( 12 ) 2 = 12 + f ( 12 ) f ( 12 ) 2 f ( 12 ) 12 = 0 ( f ( 12 ) 4 ) ( f ( 12 ) + 3 ) = 0 , f(12)^2=12+f(12) \\ f(12)^2-f(12)-12=0 \\ (f(12)-4)(f(12)+3)=0, so taking the positive root we have f ( 12 ) = 4 , f(12)=4, and subtituing on the derivate we finally get this f ( 12 ) = 1 2 12 + f ( 12 ) 1 f ( 12 ) = 1 2 12 + 4 1 f ( 12 ) = 1 2 16 1 f ( 12 ) = 1 8 1 f ( 12 ) = 1 7 , f'(12)=\frac{1}{2\sqrt{12+f(12)}-1} \\ f'(12)=\frac{1}{2\sqrt{12+4}-1}\\ f'(12)=\frac{1}{2\sqrt{16}-1} \\f'(12)=\frac{1}{8-1} \\ f'(12)=\frac{1}{7}, so f ( 12 ) = 1 7 = a b , f'(12)=\frac{1}{7}=\frac{a}{b}, so a + b = 1 + 7 = 8 a+b=1+7=\boxed{8}

Snehal Shekatkar
Dec 23, 2013

The question is somewhat confusing I think (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

Question simply wants us to calculate d f d x \frac{df}{dx} at x = 12 x=12 .

Now since there is infinite sequence of square roots for f ( x ) f(x) , we can write,

f ( x ) = x + f ( x ) f(x)=\sqrt{x+f(x)}

f ( x ) 2 = x + f ( x ) \therefore f(x)^{2}=x+f(x)

Differentiating both sides w.r.t.x, we get,

2 f ( x ) d f d x = 1 + d f d x 2f(x)\frac{df}{dx}=1+\frac{df}{dx}

d f d x = 1 2 f ( x ) 1 \therefore \frac{df}{dx}=\frac{1}{2f(x)-1}

d f d x x = 12 = 1 2 f ( 12 ) 1 \therefore \frac{df}{dx}|_{x=12}=\frac{1}{2f(12)-1}

Now we want to find out f ( 12 ) f(12) . Let f ( 12 ) = y f(12)=y .

y 2 = 12 + y \therefore y^{2}=12+y

This gives, y = 4 y=4 and y = 3 y=-3

But the answer which we get using y = 3 y=-3 violets the condition of positiveness asked in the problem hence y = 4 y=4 is the correct choice. This gives:

d f d x 12 = 1 7 \frac{df}{dx}|_{12}=\frac{1}{7} and hence, a + b = 8 a+b=\boxed{8}

There is no confusion at all. The solution is completely correct and y = -3 is to be neglected as it does not satisfy the answer.

Sachin Aggarwal - 7 years, 5 months ago

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Thats okay.. but why "gradient of tangent?". Its only tangent of "f(x)".

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

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A tangent is a line that is tangent to the function. A gradient of the tangent is the gradient of this tangent line or the gradient at x=12. The question is accurately phrased.

Tong Choo - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Tong Choo Tangent at x = 12 x=12 is also a correct phrasing.. :)

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Snehal Shekatkar tangent at x=12 would mean the complete equation of the tangent (y=x/7 + 16/7 ,in this case). The question asks for the gradient, which is 1/7. The question is perfectly phrased. Anyways, what matters is that you understood the problem, so relax!!

Nikhil Tiwari - 7 years, 5 months ago

@Snehal Shekatkar No, I don't think tangent would be correct phrasing because it does not specify that I wanted the answer to be the slope of the tangent. Like nikhil said, tangent could be asking for the equation of the tangent, potentially the gradient, or anything else related to the tangent so it would not have worked.

Cole Coupland - 7 years, 5 months ago

@Tong Choo I've always heard it as slope rather than gradient

Michael Tong - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Michael Tong Gradient is synonymous with slope.

Cole Coupland - 7 years, 5 months ago

Gradient means slope. So the question asks for "slope" of tangent.

Nikhil Tiwari - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Nikhil Tiwari Slope of a function can be defined as its derivative at particular values.

Saqib Munir - 7 years, 4 months ago
Siddharth Shah
Dec 23, 2013

first of all a tangent to the function is f'(x) at x=some 'a' (Which is 12 in our case). Our function can be written as y 2 y^{2} =x + y. Hence differentiating f(x), we get 2y × d y / d x \times dy/dx = 1 + dy/dx. Now, dy/dx = 1/(2y-1) At x=12, f(x)= y 2 y^{2} = 12 + y which gives y=4 or -3. since the gradient of tangent is positive, we have y=4. Plugging which in f'(x) gives us that dy/dx at x=12 is 1/7. Hence the answer 1+7 = 8 \boxed{8}

Oscar Fonseca
Jan 21, 2014

Here is what I did… with some trouble: First, let's get our own definition of the function. g ( x ) = x + g ( x ) g(x) = \sqrt{x+g(x)} So we have a recursive function! Let's find the derivative, so we have a way to find the tangent at 12 12 . (I'll use implicit differentiation.) 2 g ( x ) g ( x ) = 1 + g ( x ) 2g(x)g'(x)=1+g'(x) So we have our two functions now. Lets get in the numbers. First, we'll evaluate the original function at 12, and using the quadratic formula, we get: g ( 12 ) = 1 + 1 + 48 2 = 4 g(12) = \frac{1+\sqrt{1+48}}{2} = 4 Then back to the derivative… g ( 12 ) = 1 2 g ( 12 ) 1 = 1 8 1 g'(12) = \frac{1}{2g(12)-1}=\frac{1}{8-1} Finally: a + b = 8 \boxed{a+b = 8}

Mike Kong
Dec 23, 2013

Let N N be the RHS, and let y = f ( x ) y = f(x) , Then, we have

y = N y = N

y 2 = N + x y^2 = N + x

Thus, we have y = y 2 x y = y^2 - x and y 2 y = x y^2 - y = x . Taking the implicit derivative, we have 2 y d y d x d y d x = 1 2y \frac{dy}{dx} - \frac{dy}{dx} = 1 and d y d x = 1 2 y 1 \frac{dy}{dx} = \frac{1}{2y - 1} . We require to find the value of y = N y = N at x = 12 x = 12 .

So, going back to our equation, we have that y 2 y = 12 ( y 4 ) ( y + 3 ) = 0 y^2 - y = 12 \rightarrow (y - 4)(y + 3) = 0 . y y has to be a positive value, so y = 4 y = 4 . Our derivative of the tangent line is then d y d x = 1 7 \frac{dy}{dx} = \frac{1}{7} .

Harry Ray
Jun 30, 2016

Let's find an explicit solution for f ( x ) f(x) . As others have noted, it must satisfy: f ( x ) = x + f ( x ) f(x) = \sqrt{x + f(x)} which, letting y = f ( x ) y = f(x) , we can rearrange as: y 2 y = x y^2 - y = x We recognise this as a parabola that has been reflected in the line y = x y = x and has y-intercepts at y = 0 , 1 y = 0, 1 . The quadratic formula gives us two possible solutions, y = 1 2 ± 1 2 1 + 4 x y = \frac{1}{2} \pm \frac{1}{2}\sqrt{1 + 4x} which are the upper and lower branches of the parabola. Since the tangent to the desired function is positive at x = 12 x = 12 , we are only interested in the upper branch. The derivative of it is: d y d x = 1 1 + 4 x \frac{\mathrm{d}y}{\mathrm{d}x} = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1 + 4x}} Evaluating at x = 12 x = 12 we get f ( 12 ) = 1 7 f^\prime(12) = \frac{1}{7} and so the answer is 1 + 7 = 8 1 + 7 = \boxed{8} .

Noel Lo
Oct 6, 2015

It is a great problem love it!

Let us consider y = f(x)

Then y^{2} = x + y

Differentiating with respect to x,

         [2 \times y \times \frac{dy}{dx}] = [1 + \frac{dy}{dx}]

          Gradient      [ \frac{dy}{dx}] = [\frac{1}{ 2 \times y - 1}]


          when x =12, y= 4 or (-3)

          Since only positive value is asked, y = 4.

          so,    y =4, [\frac{dy}{dx} ]= [\frac{1{7}] = [\frac{a}{b}]

          so, [\boxed{a + b = 8}]

y^2=x+y or, y^2-y-12=0 or, y=-3,4. As y can be expressed as the square root of real number,the value of y can't be negetive. So, y=4.

Now,(dy/dx)=1/(2y-1) for y=4,the value of (dy/dx)=1/7=a/b

So, a+b=8

Victor Colombo
Feb 17, 2014

Let y = f ( x ) y = f(x) .

Find the solution of f ( 12 ) f(12)

As soon as y = x + x + . . . y = \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+...}}

y = x + y y= \sqrt{x+y}

y 2 y = x y^2-y=x

At x = 12 , y = 4 x=12, \boxed{y=4} .

Deriving f(x)

d y 2 y d x = d x d x \frac{d y^2-y}{d x} = \frac{d x}{d x}

  • By the chain rule:

d y 2 y d y y = 1 \frac{d y^2-y}{d y} y' = 1

y = 1 2 y 1 \boxed{y' = \frac{1}{2y-1}}

Concluding

y = a b y'= \frac{a}{b}

y = 1 7 y' = \frac{1}{7}

a + b = 8 \boxed{a+b=8}

Saloni Gupta
Dec 24, 2013

It forms a quadratic equation in f(x) , since the pattern inside the root is infinite...

f(x)= sqrt(x + f(x)) , which means, after solving using Vieta's formula,

2*f(x) = 1+ sqrt(4x+1)
{after ignoring the other solution having '-' sign with sqrt(4x+1), since f(x) would always be positive}

Differentiating this value of f(x) w.r.t 'x', we get,

f'(x) = 1/sqrt(4x+1)

which gives f'(12) = 1/7 ...

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