Rope in a circular tube

A rope of mass M M having length π r \pi r is placed in a vertical circular tube centered at the origin. The mean radius of the tube is r = 20 π 3 m r = \SI{\dfrac{20}{\pi^{3}}}{\meter} . The width of the tube is such that it just fits the rope.

The rope is slightly pulled from one end and released to oscillate. If the tube is frictionless, find the time period (in seconds) of the small oscillations. ( \big( Take acceleration due to gravity g = 10 m / s 2 . ) g=\SI[per-mode=symbol]{10}{\meter\per\second\squared}.\big)


The answer is 2.

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4 solutions

Steven Chase
Apr 27, 2017

The rope is a semi-circle of radius R. Suppose the midpoint of the rope segment is offset from the vertical by an angle δ \delta . The mass associated with an infinitesimal portion of the rope is:

d m = d θ π M \large{dm = \frac{d\theta}{\pi} M}

The height ( y y ) above the lowest part of the tube is (where θ \theta is the angle between the infinitesimal and the vertical):

y = R ( 1 c o s θ ) \large{y = R(1-cos\theta)}

The gravitational potential energy of the infinitesimal is:

d U = d m g y = d θ π M g R ( 1 c o s θ ) = M g R π ( 1 c o s θ ) d θ \large{dU = dm \, g \, y = \frac{d\theta}{\pi} M g R(1-cos\theta) = \frac{MgR}{\pi} (1-cos\theta) d\theta }

Recalling that the midpoint of the rope segment is offset from the vertical by an angle δ \delta , the gravitational potential energy of the entire rope is:

U = M g R π π 2 + δ π 2 + δ ( 1 c o s θ ) d θ = M g R π ( π 2 c o s δ ) \large{U = \frac{MgR}{\pi} \int_{\frac{-\pi}{2} + \delta}^{\frac{\pi}{2} + \delta} (1-cos\theta) d\theta = \frac{MgR}{\pi} (\pi - 2cos\delta) }

As the rope segment oscillates, the offset δ \delta will vary with time. The associated kinetic energy is:

K E = 1 2 M v 2 = 1 2 M ( R δ ˙ ) 2 = 1 2 M R 2 δ ˙ 2 \large{KE = \frac{1}{2} M v^2 = \frac{1}{2} M (R \dot{\delta})^2 = \frac{1}{2} M R^2 \dot{\delta}^2}

We can solve for the dynamics using Lagrangian Mechanics . We have one state variable ( δ ) \delta) . The system Lagrangian is:

L = K E U = 1 2 M R 2 δ ˙ 2 M g R π ( π 2 c o s δ ) \large{L = KE - U = \frac{1}{2} M R^2 \dot{\delta}^2 - \frac{MgR}{\pi} (\pi - 2cos\delta)}

The Euler-Lagrange equation is:

d d t L δ ˙ = L δ \large{\frac{d}{dt} \frac{\partial{L}}{\partial{\dot{\delta}}} = \frac{\partial{L}}{\partial{\delta}}}

Evaluating the left-hand side yields:

d d t L δ ˙ = d d t ( M R 2 δ ˙ ) = M R 2 δ ¨ \large{\frac{d}{dt} \frac{\partial{L}}{\partial{\dot{\delta}}} = \frac{d}{dt} (M R^2 \dot{\delta}) = M R^2 \ddot{\delta} }

Evaluating the right-hand side yields:

L δ = d d δ ( 2 M g R π c o s δ ) = 2 M g R π s i n δ \large{\frac{\partial{L}}{\partial{\delta}} = \frac{d}{d\delta} \Big(\frac{2MgR}{\pi} cos\delta\Big) = -\frac{2MgR}{\pi} sin\delta }

Equating the two yields:

M R 2 δ ¨ = 2 M g R π s i n δ δ ¨ = 2 g π R s i n δ \large{M R^2 \ddot{\delta} = -\frac{2MgR}{\pi} sin\delta \\ \ddot{\delta} = -\frac{2g}{\pi R} sin\delta}

Assuming the initial angular displacement is small, the following approximation can be made:

δ ¨ 2 g π R δ \large{\ddot{\delta} \approx -\frac{2g}{\pi R} \delta}

This differential equation clearly corresponds to simple harmonic motion with angular speed as shown below:

ω 2 = 2 g π R = 4 π 2 T 2 T = 4 π 3 R 2 g \large{\omega^2 = \frac{2g}{\pi R} = \frac{4 \pi^2}{T^2} \\ T = \sqrt{\frac{4 \pi^3 R}{2g}}}

We are given the value of R:

R = 20 π 3 \large{R = \frac{20}{\pi^3}}

Substituting in for R R and ( g = 10 ) (g = 10) yields:

T = 4 π 3 20 20 π 3 = 4 = 2 \large{T = \sqrt{\frac{4 \pi^3 20}{20 \pi^3}} = \sqrt{4} = \boxed{2}}

Wow, this is a beautiful solution. Looks like you've come full circle with LM.

Josh Silverman Staff - 4 years, 1 month ago

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level 4 ? really ?

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

see my solution plz , it's beautiful too.

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

i solved using some creativity :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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It's always fun to see the various ways of solving problems

Steven Chase - 4 years, 1 month ago

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yeah ! beauty of physics :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Even Maths! Haha!

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

Great solution. Thanks!!!

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

Sir, do you mind listening to what I did?

As we will obviously displace the rope a bit to check the time period...... but if we notice .... then the center of the rope will be fixed, So taking rotations about the center, we can say, For a half ring,

MOI = M R 2 MR^{2} and the time period of a compound oscillations = T = 2 π I M g d T = 2 \pi \sqrt{\dfrac{I}{Mgd}} where d is the dist. from COM from the point of rotation.

Now we can say that, d = 2 R π d=\dfrac{2R}{\pi} and I = M R 2 I= MR^2 .

Am I correct sir?

Well got the same answer, But I love physics, I am very precautious if I was correct, rather than just making up the answer anyhow.

Thanks for your time :D.

I will eagerly wait for your reply.

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Now that I look at this again, it could be fairly easily done using the torque and the moment of inertia, as you appear to be doing. So I think you're right.

Steven Chase - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Ok thanks. Well. What is lagarangian mechanics? Where can I study that?

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Md Zuhair Here's Brilliant's article on it:

https://brilliant.org/wiki/lagrangian-formulation-of-mechanics/

Steven Chase - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Steven Chase Thanks sir.

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Md Zuhair I'm looking forward to solving your first LM problem when you post it :)

Steven Chase - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Steven Chase Sure Sir! :D. By the way, Do you like my problems sir?

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

Why don't you convert this into a solution? This is the standard force method with which I solved this too. :)

Tapas Mazumdar - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Which method? Steven sir's method?

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Md Zuhair No, yours. Steven sir solved it via the potential energy method then calculated force by differentiation. Whereas torque can easily be found and equated to τ = c θ \tau = -c \theta

Tapas Mazumdar - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Tapas Mazumdar Actually :). Are you prepared for Boards Nd JEE?

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Md Zuhair Right now focusing on boards English paper. Will divide time for mains and boards after my physics paper.

Tapas Mazumdar - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Tapas Mazumdar Oh.. I have class 11 English too!

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

@Md Zuhair Why don't you post that as a solution , the solution was very good , I really didn't notice that com was fixed and we can treat it as a compound pendulum..Though I too solved it using some similar analysis of torque.

Ankit Kumar Jain - 3 years, 3 months ago

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:D Sure bro. I will, Let my exams come to an end :p , It would take 3 more days :D

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Md Zuhair All the best for your exams. :)

Ankit Kumar Jain - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Ankit Kumar Jain Most of them are over, Only maths and CS are left. Btw, Thanks for that :D

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

This is an incredibly elegant solution, thank you!

Jack Ceroni - 2 years, 1 month ago

Thanks. I just happened to notice that this is the 2-year anniversary

Steven Chase - 2 years, 1 month ago

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good catch!

Md Zuhair - 2 years, 1 month ago

u can do it using taylor theorem ,

by calculating potential at general displacement and double differentiate it to get the value at the eqil. point ,

hope i'm right and u liked it.

Awesome solution!!!!!

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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at least upvote it then :P

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Ya....sorry forgot to up vote. Now I have up voted.

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member thnx , btw isn't my creativity good ? :) btw i don't know if my ans is right or not @Prakhar Bindal @Mark Hennings @Aniket Sanghi can u check the answer plz :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member I got your answer. Very nice problem. I solved using Lagrangian Mechanics.

Steven Chase - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@Steven Chase Can you post your approach? thanks in advance

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Yes, I will post it later

Steven Chase - 4 years, 1 month ago

@A Former Brilliant Member It's up now. @Josh Silverman , this was a nice application for LM.

Steven Chase - 4 years, 1 month ago

@A Former Brilliant Member Yes.....you are very creative.

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

@Spandan Senapati is my answer right ? u r supposed to deal in olympiad - type problems , is it apho level ? i made it today morning :P

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

Very nice problem! Post more bro!

Harsh Shrivastava - 4 years, 1 month ago

Great jobs all around-I love the problem. And a nice solve too.

Josh Silverman Staff - 4 years, 1 month ago

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thnku sir , btw shouldn't it be level 5?

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

Nice problem! Did the same way :p

Sumanth R Hegde - 4 years, 1 month ago

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how's adv prep ?

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Still not thorough ! Feeling the heat :(

Sumanth R Hegde - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@Sumanth R Hegde me too but u'll do fine :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member i got 130 marks in mains , will i be even able to clr adv :(

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Worst part is that it always comes down to what you do on the day of the exam, ! U give in to pressure and boom, there goes everything.

Sumanth R Hegde - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@Sumanth R Hegde And BOOM! You are now in an IIT! I don't know why, I get an "ajeeb" feeling when I think, If I get into IIT. That AJEEB is just a very good feeling. I love that feeling, that "Yeah! I got into the IIT!" .. You got that.

Its our turn now :D.

Just keep us blessed, We will end up at IITM only :P

HAHA. I heard IITM mess gives awful food? I heard, I dont know

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago
Ashutosh Sharma
Feb 10, 2018

we can easily do it with com concept. i.e distance of com of ring from centre is 2R/pi .Mg as restoring torque acts there is displced at small angle theta.mow use T=I*alpha .here I is MR^2

Why I = M R 2 2 I=\dfrac{MR^2}{2} , wouldn't it be I = M R 2 I=MR^2 ?

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

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It is a ring, not a disk

Nakul Neeraje - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Thats what I said bro

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

I is MR² only my bro.

Nivedit Jain - 3 years, 3 months ago

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I said that .. and then after that he edited :D

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 3 months ago

oh.. sorry corrected now

Ashutosh Sharma - 3 years, 3 months ago
Alan Li
Mar 18, 2018

I will attempt to draw an analogue to the spring harmonic oscillator to solve this problem.

-Given small displacement θ \theta on one side, we will have additional mass 2 θ π m \frac{2\theta}{\pi}m on that side as well and restoring force

F = 2 θ π m g F = \frac{2\theta}{\pi}mg

-Using the middle of the rope as a point of reference, the linear displacement d d follows the relation relation with d = r θ d = r\theta which we can substitute into the previous equation to rewrite the restoring force

F = 2 g m π r d F = \frac{2gm}{\pi r}d

-Recall the spring harmonic oscillator which had restoring force k d kd and period

T = 2 π m k T = 2\pi\sqrt{\frac{m}{k}} .

Our restoring force has the exact same form, just with a different k! Substituting in we get

T = 2 π π r 2 g T = 2\pi\sqrt{\frac{\pi r}{2g}}

Plugging in radius and gravity we get

T = 2 π π 20 π 3 2 10 = 2 T = 2\pi\sqrt{\frac{\pi 20}{\pi^{3}2 * 10 }}\ = \boxed{2}

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