A block of mass M is connected to a wall by two springs of respective spring constants k 1 and k 2 . The block shows simple harmonic oscillation with amplitude A .
Find the amplitude of oscillation of point P where the two springs are connected.
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How do the springs know the mass is oscillating and the wall is still?
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The spring isn't sentient, it doesn't know :) Even if you assume the mass is still and the wall is oscillating, you get the same results for this problem. Try it out!
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Thanks. I initially thought it should be symmetrical.
It seems to me that the claim that the forces must be equal is different from the claim that the spring is connected; if there was no net force at point P, then P would not accelerate at all.
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At time t=0, this is not a problem, however. My bad
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The point P has no mass, so can we can say the net force (mass × acceleration) on it is zero for all t ?
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@Pranshu Gaba – Changing the mass of P should not change the net force on P; it should only change the acceleration that P experiences as a result of the force. Furthermore, I believe that is would make more sense to consider an infinitesimal segment of the spring of length dl and mass dm; this seems much more physical than considering a point.
@Peter Boyajian just because it is at t=0 does not mean that it shouldn't accelerate. I believe the reason that k1x1= k2x2 because all internal forces must balance for an object to be "continuous"
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@William G. – What exactly is your definition of continuous?
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@Peter Boyajian – that the spring does not fall apart at point p or any other point
If we go otherway round then we'll get the answer reversed?
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No
k 1 ( A − A 2 ) = k 2 A 2 ( k 1 + k 2 ) A 2 = k 1 A A 2 = ( k 1 + k 2 ) k 1 A A 1 = A − A 2 = ( k 1 + k 2 ) k 2 A
I got the wrong answer k1/(k1+k2) because I mistook the spring constant for its stretchability, which is the reciprocal :-)
I liked the Lagrangian magic of Steven Chase's solution. But suppose you were in an exam situation and didn't have time to do the detailed calculation?
I reasoned physically as follows. Suppose the two springs had the same spring constant. Then the point between them will oscillate with half the amplitude of the block. So we know the answer must be option four or five!
Now suppose we make k 2 > > k 1 so big that the spring attached to the block hardly stretches at all during the motion. Then P has almost as big an amplitude as the block, allowing us to identify the fifth option as the correct one.
... I used similar reasoning to get this wrong ... make the string attached to the brick be rigid (i.e. its string constant would be 0) and point P would oscillate with amplitude A. Similarly, if the string attached to the wall had 0 string constant then point P would not oscillate. So what I learned from your solution is that a rigid body (i.e. a body that doesn't stretch) has an infinite string constant. Knowing very little about string constants I assumed that a rigid string should have a zero spring constant (i.e. 0 springiness). ... sigh ...
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An easy way to see that a large k represents a stiff spring is to remember Hooke's law F = kx where F is the force and x is the extension of the spring. If k is very big then even a small x will produce a big force. Or to put it another way a big force will only stretch the spring a little!
Cheers!
Suppose k2 is infinitely big, absolutely rigid spring; so, amplitude at P point is also "A". Only the last solution in possible.
Peter i followed your reasoning at the fact of the two springs having the same spring constant, then i thought if the block M haves the A oscilation and it is directly attanched to the k2 then its more logical to be option 5
This is a good opportunity to practice Lagrangian Mechanics . Define s 1 and s 2 as the stretches of the two springs.
Spring Potential Energy: U = 2 1 k 1 s 1 2 + 2 1 k 2 s 2 2
Mass Kinetic Energy: E = 2 1 m ( s 1 ˙ + s 2 ˙ ) 2
Lagrangian:
L = E − U = 2 1 m ( s 1 ˙ + s 2 ˙ ) 2 − 2 1 k 1 s 1 2 − 2 1 k 2 s 2 2
Equations of motion:
d t d ∂ s 1 ˙ ∂ L = ∂ s 1 ∂ L d t d ∂ s 2 ˙ ∂ L = ∂ s 2 ∂ L
Evaluating these results in:
m ( s 1 ¨ + s 2 ¨ ) = − k 1 s 1 m ( s 1 ¨ + s 2 ¨ ) = − k 2 s 2 ⟹ k 1 s 1 = k 2 s 2
Mass displacement (total stretch) in terms of spring stretches:
s = s 1 + s 2 = s 1 + k 2 k 1 s 1 = s 1 k 2 k 1 + k 2 ⟹ s 1 = s k 1 + k 2 k 2
Very good derivation, which answers this question and prepares the way for many others about the two-spring system.
One minor detail: In the 'Equations of motion,' the derivatives on the right hand side (of L with respect to s1 and s2) should be partial derivatives. You used the full derivative vs partial derivative notation on the left hand sides, so I thought this was worth noting.
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Indeed, you're right. I have amended those equations. Thanks
Splendid! good approach by using Lagrangian!
wait why does k1x1 have to equal k2x2? Is it because all internal forces must balance?
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There is no notion of force in my derivation. The equivalence comes right out of the derivation.
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? But there has to be a reason why k1s1 = k2s2. Could you explain? Thanks
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@William G. – Notice how in the two equations above that, the left sides are identical.
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@Steven Chase – @Steven Chase chase sir. Please suggest me good book for lagrangian from basic to high level .
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@A Former Brilliant Member – I didn't learn it from a book, but this wiki is a very good resource
https://brilliant.org/wiki/lagrangian-formulation-of-mechanics/
Good solution
The force is always equal at two important points. One where the mass is attached to spring (of spring constant k2) and the point P acting on spring constant (k1). This is true since a force applied to spring with spring constant k2 will ultimately have to exert the same force on spring with spring constant k1 as they are always in tension. The maximum extension of spring with spring constant k1 = to the amplitude of point P. This maximum extension is created when the force acting on spring k1 with maximum force from hooke's law (F=Ke). We also know that the force on spring k1 is the same as on spring k2 hence their maximum extensions occur at the same time. The maximum extension of both springs added together is the extension of the spring. Hence from this information: F=k1 e1=k2 e2 e1+e2=A Given two different equations involving both e1 and e2 they can be simultaneously solved for e1 (the maximum extension of spring 1). Which is the amplitude of point P.
Assume spring K1 extremely hard and K2 extremely soft. K1 will not move almost, K2 will squeeze completely. This suggests the only possible solution - the last listed.
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Relevant wiki: Hooke's Law
At the point P there are 2 Forces (at t=0): k 1 A 1 and k 2 A 2 = k 2 ( A − A 1 ) , because springs are connected consistently.
k 1 A 1 = k 2 ( A − A 1 ) ( k 1 + k 2 ) A 1 = k 2 A A 1 = ( k 1 + k 2 ) k 2 A