Ostrich's Nested Radical

Algebra Level 5

Given that x x and y y are positive integers such that x + x + x + x + = y + y y + y , \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\cdots}}}}=\sqrt{y+\sqrt{y-\sqrt{y+\sqrt{y-\cdots}}}}, find the sum of the first 20 20 smallest possible values of x + y x+y .


The answer is 440.

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1 solution

Victor Loh
Sep 13, 2014

Let A A be a positive real number such that x + x + x + x + = A = y + y y + y \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\cdots}}}}=A=\sqrt{y+\sqrt{y-\sqrt{y+\sqrt{y-\cdots}}}}


x + x + x + x + = A x + A = A 2 x = A 2 A \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\cdots}}}}=A \\ \implies x+A=A^2 \\ \implies x=A^2-A \\


y + y y + y = A y + y A = A 2 y A = ( A 2 y ) 2 = A 4 2 A 2 y + y 2 y 2 2 A 2 y y = A A 4 y 2 ( 2 A 2 + 1 ) y = A A 4 ( y 2 A 2 + 1 2 ) 2 = A A 4 + ( 2 A 2 + 1 2 ) 2 = A A 4 + A 4 + A 2 + 1 4 = A 2 A + 1 4 = ( A 1 2 ) 2 \sqrt{y+\sqrt{y-\sqrt{y+\sqrt{y-\cdots}}}}=A \\ \implies y+\sqrt{y-A}=A^2 \\ \implies y-A=(A^2-y)^2 \\ =A^4-2A^2y+y^2 \\ \implies y^2-2A^2y-y=-A-A^4 \\ \implies y^2-(2A^2+1)y=-A-A^4 \\ \implies \left(y-\frac{2A^2+1}{2}\right)^2=-A-A^4+\left(\frac{2A^2+1}{2}\right)^2 \\ =-A-A^4+A^4+A^2+\frac{1}{4} \\ =A^2-A+\frac{1}{4} \\ =\left(A-\frac{1}{2}\right)^2 \\


Case 1: y 2 A 2 + 1 2 = A 1 2 y = A 2 + A y-\frac{2A^2+1}{2}=A-\frac{1}{2} \\ \implies y=A^2+A \\


Case 2: y 2 A 2 + 1 2 = 1 2 A y = A 2 A + 1 = x + 1 y-\frac{2A^2+1}{2}=\frac{1}{2}-A \\ \implies y=A^2-A+1 \\ =x+1 \\


Let us first consider Case 1. Since x = A 2 A x=A^2-A and y = A + A 2 y=A+A^2 , x + y = 2 A 2 x+y=2A^2 implies that A A must be an integer. We proceed to rewrite x = A 2 A x=A^2-A as x + 1 4 = A 2 A + 1 4 = ( A 1 2 ) A = 1 2 + x + 1 4 ( rej. 1 2 x + 1 4 A > 0 ) x+\frac{1}{4}=A^2-A+\frac{1}{4} \\ =\left(A-\frac{1}{2}\right) \\ A=\frac{1}{2}+\sqrt{x+\frac{1}{4}} \\ (\text{rej.} \quad \frac{1}{2}-\sqrt{x+\frac{1}{4}} \because A>0) \\ For A A to be an integer, since x + 1 4 = 4 x + 1 4 = 4 x + 1 2 , \sqrt{x+\frac{1}{4}}=\sqrt{\frac{4x+1}{4}}=\frac{\sqrt{4x+1}}{2}, 4 x + 1 \sqrt{4x+1} must be odd, i.e. 4 x + 1 = 2 n + 1 , \sqrt{4x+1}=2n+1, where n n is a positive integer. We have 4 x + 1 = ( 2 n + 1 ) 2 = 4 n 2 + 4 n + 1 x = n ( n + 1 ) 4x+1=(2n+1)^2 \\ =4n^2+4n+1 \\ \implies x=n(n+1) \\ Substituting n = 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , , n=1,2,3,4,\cdots, we have x = 2 , 6 , 12 , 20 , x=2,6,12,20,\cdots


We now proceed to consider Case 2. Since y = x + 1 , y=x+1, we have x = 1 , 2 , 3 , , 20. x=1,2,3,\cdots,20. Combining the results of both cases, the values of x x are 1 , 2 , 3 , , 20 1,2,3,\cdots,20 and the values of y y , consequently, would be 2 , 3 , 4 , , 21 2,3,4,\cdots,21 respectively. Hence our desired answer is ( 1 + 2 + 3 + + 20 ) + ( 2 + 3 + 4 + + 21 ) = ( 20 × 21 2 ) + ( 21 × 22 2 1 ) = 210 + 231 1 = 440 , (1+2+3+\cdots+20)+(2+3+4+\cdots+21) \\ =\left(\frac{20\times 21}{2}\right)+\left(\frac{21\times 22}{2}-1\right) \\ =210+231-1 \\ =\boxed{440}, \\ and we are done. _{\square}

I have a shorter solution. Reusing your term A A , A A can be written as: 1 2 ( 1 + 4 x + 1 ) = A = 1 2 ( 1 + 4 y 3 ) \frac { 1 }{ 2 } (1+\sqrt { 4x+1 } )=A=\frac { 1 }{ 2 } (1+\sqrt { 4y-3 } ) In your solution, A A has 2 solutions, 1 of them can be eliminated as A A cannot be negative. Solving 1 2 ( 1 + 4 x + 1 ) = 1 2 ( 1 + 4 y 3 ) 4 x + 1 = 4 y 3 y = x + 1 \frac { 1 }{ 2 } (1+\sqrt { 4x+1 } )=\frac { 1 }{ 2 } (1+\sqrt { 4y-3 } )\\ 4x+1=4y-3\\ y=x+1

Therefore, n = 1 20 2 n + 1 = 440 \sum _{ n=1 }^{ 20 }{ 2n+1 } =\boxed{440}

Got it wrong though

Julian Poon - 6 years, 9 months ago

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I also solved same way like yours.!

shivamani patil - 6 years, 5 months ago

Is it possible to unreport the qn cause I did not see the qn properly. (Did not see integer)

There should be an unreport function

Julian Poon - 6 years, 9 months ago

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No worries, it takes a while for a question to be flagged. In the meantime, the problem creator will be able to review your dispute and decide how to proceed. I also deal with reports within 24-48 hours, so "bad" reports do not stay around for long.

Unreports happen very infrequently, and I think that an "unreport" button will be more confusing to the experience.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 9 months ago

@Julian Poon I'm a moderator and I will inform Calvin about it. Disputes generally make their way to him, so I'll tell him to take note. Anyway, thanks for the constructive comment; your solution is indeed shorter :)

Victor Loh - 6 years, 9 months ago

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I completely misread the problem and made it harder than it actually was.

Hobart Pao - 6 years, 5 months ago

Cool! Thanks.. :D

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 9 months ago

If we put x=2, we get 2 values, y=3 and y=6. We are asked for the lowest x+y. So shouldn't we include them too?? @Calvin Lin @Satvik Golechha @Victor Loh @Julian Poon

Ash Dab - 6 years, 9 months ago

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@Ash Dab Mind if you give some details on how you derived them? Cause I didn't get 2 2 values when I tried it.

Julian Poon - 6 years, 9 months ago

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If we solve for the first equation, we get A= 1 + 1 + 4 x 2 \frac{1+\sqrt{1+4x}}{2} If we put x=2, then we get A=2 as well. Now, for y. For y, the equation without simplifying is y A 4 y 2 + 2 A 2 y A = 0 y-A^{4}-y^{2}+2A^{2}y-A=0 Putting A=2 gives us the quadratic y 2 9 y + 18 y^{2}-9y+18 , which gives us y=3 or y=6

Even in @Victor Loh 's solution, case 1 gives us precisely that-We can put values of A from 2 to 5.

@Julian Poon

Even I had solved the way you guys did, but as I put value of x as 2, I got y=3 and 6. So I saw solutions and Now I see that you all have done the same.

Solving this way, we get the sum equal to 370, not 440

Please correct me if I am wrong.

@Calvin Lin

@Satvik Golechha

Please see.

Ash Dab - 6 years, 9 months ago

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@Ash Dab @Ash Dab

I think its because you squared too many times. By squaring, you have created another solution whereby A A is positive. In your solution, you have taken not only A = 1 + 4 y 3 2 A=\frac { 1+\sqrt { 4y-3 } }{ 2 } , which is the correct solution, but also A = 4 y + 1 1 2 A=\frac { \sqrt { 4y+1 } -1 }{ 2 } , which gives the answer y = 6 y=6 . You can alsa tell that y = 6 y=6 is not the solution by substituting y = 6 y=6 into this: y + y y + y y + . . . \sqrt { y+\sqrt { y-\sqrt { y+\sqrt { y-\sqrt { y+\sqrt { ... } } } } } }

^^As long as enough layers.

And checking if it estimates into 2

You might want to see Satvik Golechha's comment on how to avoid quartics

Hope this helped

Julian Poon - 6 years, 9 months ago

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@Julian Poon Thanks :D Gotcha

Ash Dab - 6 years, 9 months ago

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@Ash Dab That was my favourite problem. I want to reshare it a million times.. :D

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 8 months ago

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@Satvik Golechha I still feel sad I got it wrong...

Julian Poon - 6 years, 8 months ago

Sorry for replying late @Ash Dab , you created some extraneous solutions by consecutive squaring. Think about it. If you go on squaring like this, you may prove that 2 = 2 2=-2 by simply squaring. Whenever you square any equation, don't forget to plug the values and remove extraneous solutions.

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 8 months ago

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