Pull Your Fair Share

The center of a solid sphere of radius R R is located a distance of 2 R 2R from a point-particle.

Approximately what percentage of the gravitational force felt by the point-particle is due to the blue half of the sphere?


Note: There is no ambient gravitational field.

55.2 % 55.2\% 63.8 % 63.8\% 67.4 % 67.4\% 75 % 75\%

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6 solutions

Mark Hennings
Oct 27, 2017

Relevant wiki: Gravitation

If the density of the sphere is ρ \rho , using polar coordinates we can write the attractive force from the blue hemisphere as G m ρ R 0 1 d r 0 π d θ 1 2 π 1 2 π d ϕ r 2 sin θ ( 2 r sin θ cos ϕ ) ( 4 4 r sin θ cos ϕ + r 2 ) 3 2 Gm\rho R \int_0^1 \, dr \int_0^\pi \,d\theta \int_{-\frac12\pi}^{\frac12\pi}\, d\phi \frac{r^2\sin\theta (2 - r\sin\theta\cos\phi)}{(4 - 4r\sin\theta\cos\phi + r^2)^{\frac32}} while the total attractive force from the whole sphere is G m ρ × 4 3 π R 3 ( 2 R ) 2 = 1 3 π G m ρ R Gm\rho \times \tfrac43\pi R^3 (2R)^{-2} \; = \; \tfrac13\pi Gm\rho R which is of course the same as we obtain from the above integral, replacing the ϕ \phi limits by π -\pi and π \pi .

Evaluating this multiple integral numerically, we see that the blue sphere is responsible for 67.376 \boxed{67.376} % of the total gravitational attraction.

Hi, i found the centre of mass of each semisphere at a distance of 3R/8 from the middle of the sphere and assumed that the centre of mass of each semisphere would be the point mass that exerts a gravitational force and found an answer 68.1% which is quite close to the value here.could you tell me where i went wrong? Couldnt really understand your solution its too complicated for me.thanks

Kotss Vasiliou - 3 years, 6 months ago

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You can only assume that the gravitational attraction is as if from a point source, except as a good approximation at large distances, if the mass distribution is spherically symmetric. The whole sphere has this symmetry, of course, but neither of the two hemispheres do, so you cannot use the point source simplification for either of them.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

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We can. Then tell me how to find centre of mass of discrete bodies

Roy Satyam - 3 years, 6 months ago

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@Roy Satyam See my comment on Peter MacGregor's post, which works a simpler case, showing that we cannot treat a uniform disc as a point particle.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

I don't understand why point source simplification can't be used... I am trying to solve the problem by using the centre of mass of the blue hemisphere at a distance (2R-3R/8) and mass M/2

vivek kushal - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Since the hemispheres are not spherically symmetric, we cannot simply treat them as point particles. See my comment on Peter MacGregor's post, which works a simpler case, showing that we cannot treat a uniform disc as a point particle.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

Force due to blue hemisphere, F1 = Gm (M/2)/(2R-3R/8)^2 Force due to whole sphere F2 = GmM/(2R)^2 Percentage = F1 * 100/F2 Is this not correct?

vivek kushal - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Since the hemispheres are not spherically symmetric, we cannot simply treat them as point particles. See my comment on Peter MacGregor's post, which works a simpler case, showing that we cannot treat a uniform disc as a point particle.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

Think about Gauss theorem for electrical charges, gravitation is similar , the total flux crossing closed surface, like a sphere, wherein the charges are enclosed is constant an equivalent to the sum of all charges inside, but it does not mean that flux per square foot at any place of the surface be uniform and on whole surface. However If distance of test charge is far away you can consider it in its center of gravity as you have assumed and avoid the almost allway nasty integral that use to appear. Notice the difference by your calculation and the exact one will amount around 8% of total, the farther you locate the test charge the smaller will amount the difference. Unfortunately our problem not allows us take that path but it does an idea of magnitude of the result.

Mariano PerezdelaCruz - 3 years, 6 months ago

The integral can be done analytically. When done, the ratio is found to be 1 2 ( 17 7 5 ) 0.674 \frac{1}{2} \left(17-7 \sqrt{5}\right) \approx 0.674 . I found that a spherical coordinate system set up at the origin of the full sphere, with its polar axis directed toward the point mass provided a nice simplification that eliminated the azimuthal dependence right away, as it must.

G m ρ R 0 1 d r 0 π 2 d θ 0 2 π d ϕ r 2 sin θ ( 2 r cos θ ) ( 4 4 r cos θ + r 2 ) 3 2 Gm\rho R \int_0^1 \, dr \int_0^{\frac{\pi}{2}} \,d\theta \int_{0}^{2 \pi}\, d\phi \frac{r^2\sin\theta (2 - r\cos\theta)}{(4 - 4r\cos\theta + r^2)^{\frac32}}

Rob Brott - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Indeed. This is a much better use of polar coordinates.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

I also came to this step but was stuck by this integral, which still looks forbidding with its denominator. Could you please give me some hint how to do it analytically?

299792458 萬 - 3 years, 6 months ago

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The integral with respect to ϕ \phi is trivial.

The integral with with respect to θ \theta is now possible (it is a function of cos θ \cos\theta times sin θ \sin\theta , so easy).

After that, we have a relatively straightforward integral with respect to r r . ...

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

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@Mark Hennings I had difficulty by doing the integral with respect to θ, but now worked it out. Thanks a lot!

299792458 萬 - 3 years, 6 months ago

How do you derive this integral? I can see that you're integrating for gravitational attraction across every point on the sphere, but since gravitational attraction depends on mass, and the equation inside the integral is for an infinitesimal point, where does mass come into the equation?

Jonathan Spirit - 3 years, 6 months ago

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The mass appears as the density ρ \rho times the infinitesimal volume element R 3 r 2 sin θ d r d θ d ϕ R^3r^2\sin\theta\,dr\,d\theta\,d\phi .

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Ah, I think I see. So, for reference, I'll have to turn Gm1m2/r^2 into an integration that finds m1 and r^2 based on where you are in the sphere? Is it as simple as that or am I missing a step?

Jonathan Spirit - 3 years, 6 months ago

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@Jonathan Spirit Exactly so. Basically, you regard the hemisphere as if it were made up of a very large number of extremely small pieces, and add up the gravitational attraction from each piece. Letting the piece size tend to zero turns the sum into an integral.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

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@Mark Hennings I understand. But where did (2 - r sin theta cos phi) come from? Does it result when I look for the radius?

And is R^3 strictly necessary? I searched about the volume element but none of them contained R^3.

Jonathan Spirit - 3 years, 6 months ago

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@Jonathan Spirit x = r sin θ cos ϕ y = r sin θ sin ϕ z = r cos θ x \; = \; r \sin \theta \cos \phi\;\;y \; = \; r\sin \theta \sin \phi\;\;z \; = \; r\cos \theta Source This integration is using spherical coordinate system. It is easier to understand the solution if you know what it is. You can find it here

Rui Xin - 3 years, 6 months ago

@Jonathan Spirit I used R r Rr , for 0 r 1 0 \le r\le 1 to parametrize the radial coordinate for the sphere of radius R R . The volume element is then ( R r ) 2 sin θ R d r d θ d ϕ = R 3 r 2 sin θ d r d θ d ϕ (Rr)^2\sin\theta \,Rdr\,d\theta\,d\phi \; = \; R^3 r^2\sin\theta \,dr\,d\theta\,d\phi If am looking for the axial component of the gravitational force, and so the integral is G m ρ R 3 r 2 sin θ d r d θ d ϕ R 2 ( 4 4 r sin θ cos ϕ + r 2 ) × 2 r sin θ cos ϕ 4 4 r sin θ cos ϕ + r 2 \iiint \frac{Gm\rho R^3r^2\sin\theta\,dr\,d\theta\,d\phi}{R^2(4 - 4r\sin\theta\cos\phi + r^2)} \times \frac{2- r\sin\theta\cos\phi}{\sqrt{4 - 4r\sin\theta\cos\phi + r^2}} where the last term is the cosine of the angle between the axis and the vector from the infinitesimal mass element to the mass m m .

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

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@Mark Hennings Should there be a r r in 2 sin θ cos ϕ -2\sin\theta\cos\phi and 4 sin θ cos ϕ -4\sin\theta\cos\phi ?

Rui Xin - 3 years, 6 months ago

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@Rui Xin "Not quite" and "yes". I have corrected both. Comparing my latest post with the original makes what I intended clear...

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

I used the same method as Sunny Chaturvedi (Nov 30), applying the inverse square law to the centres of gravity of the two hemispheres 3/8 R from the centre of the sphere. This gives a similar result of 68.113%, but i’m puzzled by the relatively high difference between this and the method above.

Applying Newton’s Law of Gravitation: G,m,and M are common, so the two components of the attraction are proportional to the inverse squares of the distances between the two centres of mass and the particle.

Since the centre of mass of a hemisphere is 3/8 R from the centre of the base, the distances of the centres of mass from the particle are 13/8 R and 19/8 R (2 R plus and minus 3/8 R).

The contribution of the blue hemisphere is simply 19 squared (361) over the sum of 19 squared plus 13 squared (169):

361/530 = 68.1132075471698... %

I’d appreciate if someone could explain the discrepancy — is the method flawed (if so, how?) and gives a similar result by coincidence?

Robert Williams - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Look at the many comments after Peter’s solution and elsewhere. You cannot simply treat the hemispheres as point particles at their centres of gravity, since they are not spherically symmetric.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Oops! Thank you very much for taking the time to respond, and sorry for asking something that has already been covered. Best wishes

Robert Williams - 3 years, 6 months ago
Sean Chen
Nov 30, 2017

This solution will use methods similar to those used to derive the shell theorems. G and m will not be omitted, and the overall sign will also be omitted since they don't affect the answer (can adjust at the end). First, the potential for the blue region will be dealt with first. Since potential is not a vector, it will be easier to deal with since the potentials can all be added together, whereas integrating the force would require dealing with components. First we find the potential a disk of density σ \sigma 0 R 2 π σ y d y r 2 + y 2 \int_{0}^{R'}\ \frac{2\pi \sigma ydy}{\sqrt{r^2+y^2}} The general problem is 3-d dimensional, so later it will turn out that σ \sigma = ρ \rho dx where x is the distance of the center of the disk away from the point mass. Evaluating the integral yields 2 π σ ( R 2 + r 2 r ) 2\pi\sigma(\sqrt{R'^2+r^2}-r) Now the potential for a thin disk of the sphere yields d V = 2 π ( R 2 sin 2 ( θ ) + x 2 x ) ρ d x dV=2\pi (\sqrt{R^2\sin^2(\theta)+x^2}-x)\rho dx Drawing a right triangle and knowing that cos( θ \theta =(r-x)/R, sin( θ \theta ) can be calculated. Also I'm going to get rid of ρ \rho to be lazy. Plugging in the value for sin( θ \theta ): d V = 2 π ( ( R 2 r 2 x 2 + 2 r x ) + x 2 x ) d x = 2 π ( 2 r x + R 2 r 2 x ) d x dV=2\pi (\sqrt{(R^2-r^2-x^2+2rx)+x^2}-x) dx = 2\pi (\sqrt{2rx+R^2-r^2}-x)dx Now integrating it from r-R to r: (You can verify that integrating from r-R to r+R yields 4 π ρ \pi\rho R^3/(3r) which is M/r, and U=-GMm/r.) We will be evaluating things about the blue half of the sphere for most of the problem. V = r R r 2 π ( 2 r x + R 2 r 2 x ) d x V=\int_{r-R}^{r}\ 2\pi (\sqrt{2rx+R^2-r^2}-x)dx Using u-sub for u=2rx+r^2-r^2, du=2rdx for the first part, and some more work, the integral becomes 2 π 3 r ( 2 r x + R 2 r 2 ) 3 2 π x 2 r R r \frac{2\pi}{3r}(2rx+R^2-r^2)^{\frac32}-\pi x^2|_{r-R}^{r} 2 π 3 r ( r 2 + R 2 ) 3 2 π r 2 2 π 3 r ( 2 r 2 2 R r + R 2 r 2 ) 3 2 + π ( r R ) 2 \frac{2\pi}{3r}(r^2+R^2)^{\frac32}-\pi r^2-\frac{2\pi}{3r}(2r^2-2Rr+R^2-r^2)^{\frac32}+\pi(r-R)^2 Note how it's r-R instead of R-r, since raising something squared then taking the square root makes it positive. We know r>R, so we leave it as r-R. 2 π 3 r ( ( r 2 + R 2 ) 3 2 ( r R ) 3 ) π ( 2 R r R 2 ) \frac{2\pi}{3r}((r^2+R^2)^{\frac32}-(r-R)^3)-\pi(2Rr-R^2) Now we need to find the force. By definition of potential energy, we can find it by differentiating the above by r. There may be errors with the overall sign, but again that will be adjusted at the end. (F=-dV/dr, not +dV/dr. The order of integration above may also affect the overall sign, but whatever). Pretty messy quotient rule: 2 π 3 3 2 ( r 2 + R 2 ) 1 / 2 2 r 2 ( r 2 + R 2 ) 3 2 3 ( r R ) 2 r + ( r R ) 3 r 2 2 π R \frac{2\pi}{3}\frac{\frac32(r^2+R^2)^{1/2}\cdot2r^2-(r^2+R^2)^{\frac32}-3(r-R)^2r+(r-R)^3}{r^2}-2\pi R After a bit of simplifying we end up with a not particularly nice equation. 2 π r 2 r 2 + R 2 1 3 ( r 2 + R 2 ) 3 2 ( r R ) 2 r + 1 3 ( r R ) 3 R r 2 r 2 2\pi\frac{r^2\sqrt{r^2+R^2}-\frac13(r^2+R^2)^{\frac32}-(r-R)^2r+\frac13(r-R)^3-Rr^2}{r^2} Finally we plug in the situation given in the problem r=2R. After some simplifying, it ends up as 2 π R 3 ( 5 5 5 12 1 2 + 1 12 1 ) 2\pi R^3(\sqrt{5}-\frac{5\sqrt{5}}{12}-\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{12}-1) This, multiplied by density and G will be the gravitational acceleration at that point particle. For the entire sphere, the force (excluding density, G, and m) 4 3 π R 3 r 2 = π R 3 \frac43\pi\frac{R^3}{r^2}=\frac{\pi R}{3} Finally finding the ratio 2 π R ( 5 5 5 12 1 2 + 1 12 1 ) π R 3 \frac{2\pi R(\sqrt{5}-\frac{5\sqrt{5}}{12}-\frac12+\frac{1}{12}-1)}{\frac{\pi R}{3}} And getting (sign got flipped) 6 ( 5 3 2 5 5 1 12 ) = 17 7 5 2 -6(\sqrt{5}-\frac{3}{2}-\frac{5\sqrt{5}-1}{12})=\frac{17-7\sqrt{5}}{2} \approx 67.3762 \boxed{67.3762} %

Nice solution using gravitational potentials. You have explained your reasoning in each step, this helped me understand this solution better. Thanks Sean!

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Glad to hear that :)

Sean Chen - 3 years, 6 months ago
Peter Macgregor
Nov 27, 2017

Relevant wiki: Gravitation

Here is an analysis which gives an *approximate * answer to the problem.

Since we are looking for a ratio we can cut ourselves some slack, take R = 1 R=1 and ignore π \pi , G, ρ \rho and other numerical factors!

Measure x downwards from the red point, towards the centre of the sphere. Slice the sphere up like an onion, with the layers perpendicular to the x-axis. Now we have a stack of disks with their centres of gravity on the x axis, their distance from the red point being x x , and their area being proportional to the square of their radius. By an easy application of Pythagoras this is 1 2 ( 2 x ) 2 = 4 x 3 x 2 1^2 - (2-x)^2=4x-3-x^2 . Now we imagine that all the mass of each disk of thickness d x dx is concentrated at its centre (see note).

Using the inverse square law for gravity, we can sum the effects of the disks by integration to find our ratio -

1 2 4 x 3 x 2 x 2 d x 1 3 4 x 3 x 2 x 2 d x = log 16 5 2 log 81 4 = 0.6911 = 69.11 % \frac{\int_{1}^{2}\frac{4x-3-x^2}{x^2}dx}{\int_{1}^{3}\frac{4x-3-x^2}{x^2}dx}=\frac{\log{16}-\frac{5}{2}}{\log{81}-4}=0.6911= \boxed{69.11\%}

note.

The gravitational field of the disk and an equally massive point at its centre of gravity are only approximately the same (see Mark Henning's comment below). Treating them as equal is what turns this solution from an exact analysis into an approximation. The further the red point is from the sphere, the better this approximation becomes. I'm surprised to be within 5% of the correct answer when the point is only 2 R 2R from the centre of the sphere!

This problem made me realize something I've heard many times but never really understood the significance of: a sphere of constant density can be replaced with a point mass at its centre of mass. So any distribution of mass that is not spherically symmetric (e.g. the discs you integrate over) will exert a force that is strictly smaller than what the same mass arranged in a symmetric way would do.

Gustaf Wennerholm - 3 years, 6 months ago

Can someone explain why the following thinking is incorrect: The centre of mass of a hemisphere is 3/8's 'the way up' from the base So the blue hemisphere's force on the point is FB = (GM)/(13R/8)^2 While the whole sphere force of FS = (GM)/(2R)^2 And therefore the amount excerted by blue hemisphere is FB/FS ~ 75.7%

Jenk Oguzkaya - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Me as well

Connor Smith - 3 years, 6 months ago

Same.Wonder what went wrong.

Anandh Rajan - 3 years, 6 months ago

You cannot model the hemisphere as a point particle, since the hemisphere is not spherically symmetric. As I showed above, it is not possible to take an object which is not spherically symmetric and model it is a point particle, except as a (good) approximation at large distances.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

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Wow! I can't believe I've never though of this before! Now it seems obvious. A large hollow ring (radius R) would have center of mass at the geometric center of the ring, but the actual gravitational force acting on a point particle near (<<R) that center of mass would in fact be a lot weaker than G m1 m2/(distance to center of mass)^2 since the distance to the actual mass on the outer ring would be far greater than the distance to the center of mass. Thank you! It's just so damn tempting when a problem seems to have a simple answer...

Joni-Pekka Luomala - 3 years, 6 months ago

I approximated the force due to the two hemispheres separately, and it led to me guessing the correct answer. Here was my thought process:

F_blue ~ (2-3/8)^-2

F_green ~ (2+3/8)^-2

pct blue = F blue/(F blue+F green) = 68.1%

Maybe the error partially cancels this way?

a b - 3 years, 6 months ago

You are assuming that a uniform circular disc of mass m m and radius a a exerts a force of G M m R 2 \frac{GMm}{R^2} on a mass M M a distance R R from the centre of the disc on the axis of that disc. In other words, you are assuming that you can treat the disc as a point mass. You cannot.

Splitting the disc up into circular sections (all parts of which are the same distance from the point mass, and subtend the same angle with the axis of the disc), the actual force is along the axis, and of magnitude 0 a G M 2 π x d x π a 2 × 1 R 2 + x 2 × R R 2 + x 2 = 2 G M m R a 2 0 a x d x ( x 2 + R 2 ) 3 2 = 2 G M m R a 2 [ 1 R 1 R 2 + a 2 ] \int_0^a \frac{GM2\pi x\,dx}{\pi a^2} \times \frac{1}{R^2+x^2} \times \frac{R}{\sqrt{R^2+x^2}} \; = \; \frac{2GMmR}{a^2}\int_0^a \frac{x\,dx}{(x^2+R^2)^{\frac32}} \; = \; \frac{2GMmR}{a^2}\left[\frac{1}{R} - \frac{1}{\sqrt{R^2+a^2}}\right] which is approximately equal to G M m R 2 \frac{GMm}{R^2} when R a R \gg a .

Since the disc is not spherically symmetric, treating it as a point mass is only an approximation. The same applied to the whole hemisphere.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

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What do you mean by "not spherically symmetric"? Is the point mass 'm' not on the perpendicular axis of the imaginary plane separating blue hemisphere and green hemisphere?

vivek kushal - 3 years, 6 months ago

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The disc is not sphere-shaped! As I have shown here, you cannot replace the disc by a point mass at its centre.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago

Thanks Mark.

I'm kicking myself for falling into this error, and have modified my solution appropriately.

Peter Macgregor - 3 years, 6 months ago
Sunny Chaturvedi
Nov 29, 2017

Well this is an approximate method just like that of Peter Macgregor's, the correct solution is already provided by Mark Hennings.
Let's cut the sphere in two parts and let the whole mass of each sphere (i.e. M/2) be concentrated at its centre of mass i.e. 3R/8 from base, now you have three point size particles, and gravitational field could be easily calculated and the ratio of required quantity comes out to be 68.11% (that's damn close) Caution-this was just a quick objective approach, in practise we can never change the mass distribution in space to calculate field, it alters the field at every point.
:)

Jerry Barrington
Dec 2, 2017

I did a numerical simulation in a spreadsheet (one of my favorite methods).

I created a semicircle in a 10 by 20 array, labeled .05 to .95 along the short X axis and -.95 to .95 along the longer Y axis (steps of .10 in both directions). Within the semicircle, each cell represents an annulus of mass within the sphere. The gravitational effect of each annulus is proportional to the mass, which is proportional to the radius of the annulus, thus the X label of the cell.it is inversely proportional to the distance from the cell's (X,Y) label to the point (0,2). This is then adjusted by the cosine of the angle between the center line and the line between (X,Y) and (0,2), to eliminate the outward direction of the gravity.

Summing over the 2 halves of the semicircle yields 5.480902 for blue and 11.340153 for green, with a ratio of 67.4164%.

Using Cartesian coordinates, otherwise similar to Mark Hennings' solution.

Assuming [ 1 x 1 1 y 1 1 z 1 , 0 1 ( 1 x 2 1 x 2 ( x 2 y 2 + 1 x 2 y 2 + 1 2 x ( ( 2 x ) 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) 3 / 2 d z ) d y ) d x ] 1 6 ( 7 5 17 ) π \text{Assuming}\left[-1\leq x\leq 1\land -1\leq y\leq 1\land -1\leq z\leq 1,\int_0^1 \left(\int_{-\sqrt{1-x^2}}^{\sqrt{1-x^2}} \left(\int_{-\sqrt{-x^2-y^2+1}}^{\sqrt{-x^2-y^2+1}} \frac{2-x}{\left((2-x)^2+y^2+z^2\right)^{3/2}} \, dz\right) \, dy\right) \, dx\right] \Rightarrow -\frac{1}{6} \left(7 \sqrt{5}-17\right) \pi

Assuming [ 1 x 1 1 y 1 1 z 1 , 1 1 ( 1 x 2 1 x 2 ( x 2 y 2 + 1 x 2 y 2 + 1 2 x ( ( 2 x ) 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) 3 / 2 d z ) d y ) d x ] π 3 \text{Assuming}\left[-1\leq x\leq 1\land -1\leq y\leq 1\land -1\leq z\leq 1,\int_{-1}^1 \left(\int_{-\sqrt{1-x^2}}^{\sqrt{1-x^2}} \left(\int_{-\sqrt{-x^2-y^2+1}}^{\sqrt{-x^2-y^2+1}} \frac{2-x}{\left((2-x)^2+y^2+z^2\right)^{3/2}} \, dz\right) \, dy\right) \, dx\right] \Rightarrow \frac{\pi }{3}

( 7 5 17 ) π 6 π 3 1 2 ( 17 7 5 ) 0.673762078750736 -\frac{\left(7 \sqrt{5}-17\right) \pi }{\frac{6 \pi }{3}} \Rightarrow \frac{1}{2} \left(17-7 \sqrt{5}\right) \approx 0.673762078750736

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