A ball is thrown vertically upwards with a velocity of 2 m / s . It is seen at height h twice.
Find the sum of the times, measured in seconds from the moment the ball is thrown, at which it is seen at height h .
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I think the question is misleading.....the way I read it is. The observer first sees the ball after it travels OA, and then sees it again after it travels from ABA so the total time would be OA + ABA or OABAO - AO. And this is a function of h.
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This is exactly how I read the question. The sum of the time of travel from OA + ABA not back to O
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However when I used the correct equation I got the correct answer. I integrated wrong. It has been a while. Then I copied the wrong function into google graphing. It can also be said that H should be able to equal O for the consistency of the question.
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@Eric Belrose – If h = 0 then total time equals 0.4s.....I agree. But that is not how the question is illustrated or described. If h >0 then the time must be t < 0.4s and t > 0.2s.
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@Ron Kowch – The total time is always less than .4s and as an example at .1m the times were something like .1 and .3 when you add them together it is .4s. It is a neat problem. I got it wrong because my first two tries I wasn't summing them for some dumb reason I was taking the difference. But I realized after. This problem is consistent when you sum, and as the challenge master indicated it is because of symmetry. The time spent going up added to the time going down to achieve the same height will always add up to the same number because the differences in velocity.
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@Eric Belrose – The problem states that the time is to be measured from the moment the ball is thrown. Thus, we need to find T O A + T O A B A .
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@Rohit Gupta – What am I missing here? If I am the observer looking through a window at height h....I will see the ball once as it rises T(OA) and then I will see it again as it falls T(ABA). The total time would be T(OA) + T(ABA). If I start a stop watch when the ball is released to when it reaches height h (Point A) the time would be T(OA), if I start another stop watch when I first see it at "h" (Point A) and stop it when I see it again at "h" (Point A) the time would be T(ABA). Total time T(OA) + T(ABA) < 0.4s.
The way you described it sounds like two independent observers. Two observers start their stop watches when the ball is released. One observer stops his watch when he sees it rise T(OA). The other observer stops his watch when he sees it fall T(OABA). When they add their two independent observed times together T(OA) + T(OABA) = 0.4s.
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@Ron Kowch – After re-reading the question I can now understand that the second interpretation is the correct one. I guess I was just confused with how the question was worded.
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@Ron Kowch – Yeah, the second interpretation is correct as the problem states that the time is to be measured from the moment the ball is thrown. I believe this is done intentionally, not to confuse the readers but because this gives an interesting result which is independent of the height h .
In the upward journey, from O to A, the ball is slowing down whereas it is speeding up in the downward journey from A to O. Can you elaborate further, why the time from O to A is equal to the time from A to O?
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It is true that the ball is slowing down from O to A, while speeding up from A to O. However, it is important to note that at O its speed is maximum (whether leaving O or returning to O). Therefore, when travelling from O to A, the ball begins with maximum speed, but on its return journey of A to O, it begins with a slower speed.
If air resistance is ignored, the change in speed from O to A is the same as that from A to O, the acceleration is the same, the distance is also the same, and hence, the time taken should also be the same.
The total time from launch back to the ground is .4 seconds. But it seems like the time to any point h is indeterminant - it is some time between .2 and .4 seconds
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Yes, that is correct, the time to reach a certain height depends on the height itself. However, the sum of the times from the moment the ball is thrown, at which it is seen at height h is independent of h . This is the beauty of this problem.
As written, the question asks for the total time to get to height h on the way up and back down to h. Not an actual value for h, the solution is in the form of a solution to the quadratic of the motion equation. The total time of flight is not from origin to origin not asked.
Using the projectile motion formula h = − 2 g t 2 + v t + h 0 , we get the function h = − 5 t 2 + 2 t . Seeing this is a quadratic function, we can notice that the sum of the 2 times the ball reaches the height h is simply the time it hits the ground. Setting this equal to 0 and factoring, we get t ( 2 − 5 t ) = 0 ⟹ t = 0 , 5 2 Therefore, the answer is 5 2 = 0 . 4
Why did you set the equation equal to zero?
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Because when you observe the sum of the 2 times the ball reaches a height of h on the parabola. you can move the portion to the first time it reaches height h to the other side of the parabola (which is symmetrical about its peak). Notice, when you connect the 2 parts together, it is simply the time t when h = 0 .
Pretty simple.
We know, h = u t − ( g t 2 ) / 2
After rearranging terms, you get the quadratic,
− g t 2 + 2 u t − 2 h = 0
Applying Vieta's Formula,
The sum of the times at which it is seen is 2 u / g
It is very interesting to see that the sum of these two times is independent of the height h. Can you elaborate more on this result as to why we are getting it?
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Sorry to reply so late. I was a little busy. Thing is, the sum of the times at which the ball is seen at any height is equal to the total time. Check my solution. You might be answered
Let's take a suggestion from the wording of the question and assume that the result holds for any height to which the ball reaches. This includes the maximum height, which is reached as the speed goes to zero. This happens at t = 1 0 2 . Doubling it gives 1 0 4 .
Doubling it seems a bit confusing. Instead, it might be better if we take the h = 0.
You would still need to prove that it works for any value of h , not just assume that the author of the problem made sure of that.
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If I cared about proof, yes.
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Actually, it's not just a proof. It's a complete solution. It asks about time to h . If this time depends on h , you have not provided the solution to the problem, only a special case of it.
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@Marta Reece – If no particular value of h is given, then the result must be true for any h (assuming the problem is correct, which I'm willing to do). In that case, the special case is convenient. It's almost a guarantee that someone is going to post the full solution, so I thought it would be amusing to present a shortcut.
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@Steven Chase – And it appears from the response that people are more interested in shortcuts than in full solutions. In a way it is a bit sad, and a sign that something in the design of the problems on this website is actually encouraging it. It may be worth thinking about some more.
As I read the question it is asking for a general solution not special solution. In this case a single numerical answer is incorrect. Taking boundary conditions without any maths it is obvious if h is zero then the time is for the round trip. If h is at the apex the the time is half the round trip time: two completely different numerical values.
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It's the sum of the times. So if you take h=0, you get (0 + t f = t f). If you take the apex height, you get (0.5 * t f + 0.5 * t f = t_f).
From the equation : -5t²+2t –h =0 t = [-2 ± (4 -4x5h)½]/(-10) =[ -1 ±(1-5h)½]/(-5) The equation remains in the real domain only if h ≤1/5m =0.2m When h =0.2m the ball see that height point once and t = 1/5 s = 0.2 s When h< 0.2m the ball passes by the h point twice. So it depends of the value of h to get the time that passes for the ball to reach the second time the height h Therefore the value: t = 0.4sec is not correct because if say h = 0.2m – Δx t = 0.2s + (2Δx/5)½ Only when: h =0 t = 0.4 sec.
The symmetry of the two times t 1 and t 2 at which the ball is seen at h implies that they are equally apart from the time it reaches the top of its trajectory. We can quickly solve for that time:
v f 0 t = v 0 + a t = 2 − 1 0 t = 0 . 2 seconds
Now let t 0 be the length of time between t = 0 . 2 and t 1 and t 2 . We can then write t 1 as 0 . 2 − t 0 and t 2 and 0 . 2 + t 0 .
Hence, the sum of the times the ball is seen at h is
t 1 + t 2 = ( 0 . 2 − t 0 ) + ( 0 . 2 + t 0 ) = 0 . 4
It is interesting to see how you've used the symmetry of the motion of the projectile.
The height of the ball as a function of time is given by the equation:
y
=
v
0
t
−
2
1
g
t
2
⇒
y
=
2
t
−
5
t
2
For
y
=
h
we get:
5
t
2
−
2
t
+
h
=
0
The moments that the height of the ball is
h
are the roots of this equations.
So their sum, according to Vieta, is:
S
=
−
a
b
⇒
S
=
−
5
−
2
⇒
S
=
5
2
Isn't it interesting to note that the time is independent of the height h itself?
In very basic terms, we want to find the time of flight of vertical projectile above height 'h' with initial velocity 2 m/s. We can simply ignore the fact that the projectile has traveled 'h' height initially. We can directly find its time of flight.
Using the formula T = g 2 u s i n θ and plugging values of u=2, θ = 9 0 ∘ and g=10, we get
Total Time of Flight 0 . 4 s
If you find the time above the height h, then why do you take the speed as 2 m/s? The speed at h will be smaller than 2 m/s.
Vf = Vi + a.t
h= 0 (flight is parabolic and symmetric, so the two times added together at height h will be the same, irrespective of h)
a = -10 (gravity is negative)
-2 = 2 + -10.t
Yes the symmetry of the problem suggest that the time asked in the problem is the total time of flight.
To explain further why this happens is because the time taken by the ball to rise to a height h equals the time it takes to decends the same height in the return journey.
As we know v= u +gt
Where v is the final velocity and u is the initial velocity. So, now let's put in the values.
0=2 -10t. [v becomes 0 when the ball reaches maximum height]
=> t=1/5 = 0.2secs
Now, as Time of Ascent = Time of Descent
=> Total time = 0.4 secs
But, why does this time equal to the sum of the times, from the moment the ball is thrown, at which it is seen at height h ?
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Relevant wiki: Equations Of Motion
I would solve this problem by appealing to symmetry.
Let the starting point be O, the point at height h be A, the highest point is B. Hence, the ball travels in the order OABAO.
By considering the symmetry of the situation, note that time to travel OA = time to travel AO
The time required by the question = time to travel OA + time to travel OABA
= time to travel AO + time to travel OABA
= time to travel OABAO
Of course, the speed at which the ball returns to O is the same as when it leaves, i.e. 2m/s.
Hence, we just need to apply v = u + a t to get:
− 2 = 2 + ( − 1 0 ) t
t = 0.4 second.