Race on tracks

Identical balls are released simultaneously along fixed tracks A and B from the left end.

On which track will the ball reach the right end first?

Assume that the balls roll without slipping and the initial and final heights of both tracks are the same.

A B Both tracks take the same time

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12 solutions

Marta Reece
Sep 29, 2018

The long bottom section of track B at a lower level than that of track A. So the ball B loses more potential energy while getting to it, gaining in the process more kinetic energy and therefore higher speed. This translates into shorter time to traverse the track.

Yes, but that kinetic energy is losing when ball climbing up. Maybe is this correct.

Obren Milicevic - 2 years, 8 months ago

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That's correct, but that loss in kinetic energy will be precisely the amount to reduce the speed of B to that of the speed of A at the end of the track (because at the end of the track we must have: kinetic energy A = kinetic energy B).

Pieter odb - 2 years, 8 months ago

But the track is longer... Couldn't that cancel the time gained by speed out.

Friso van Hessen - 2 years, 8 months ago

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It completely depends on the geometries involved. The video a commenter below posted discusses it very well. But for this particular problem setup, the principle they want you to understand is the one Marta stated here.

Eric Smith - 2 years, 8 months ago

This is correct only if rolling friction is ignored. Which this type of problem setup implies, of course... still, it would be interesting to see where the “tipping point” would be if one included some coefficient of friction (longer distance means more energy lost to friction)

Eric Smith - 2 years, 8 months ago

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If friction is involved, both balls won't reach the end of the track. Instead we should probably consider the points at which the balls come to a halt (after which they will roll back). I would guess the ball on track B would also in this case come to a halt sooner, because it reaches the upward slope(s) sooner.

Roland van Vliembergen - 2 years, 8 months ago

Also, if rolling friction is absent the balls may slip off from the track.

Ram Mohith - 2 years, 8 months ago

I found this video that shows this principle with different tracks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GJujClGYJQ

sandy bugon - 2 years, 8 months ago

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The video makes things a lot easier to understand...

Hotep Nkadimeng - 2 years, 8 months ago

Thank you for sharing that video.

Nate Sterling - 2 years, 8 months ago

If the beginning and ending point are the same height then due to friction and air resistance the balls will not reach point b

Thor Stambaugh - 2 years, 8 months ago

Then wouldn’t the balls kinetic energy be reduced when it hits the second hill at the end of the track making track a and track b equal arrival times

Addison Parker - 2 years, 8 months ago

Are we to assume that we are looking at this problem in a simplistic way, and not taking into account air resistance and its effect on speed and especially acceleration, in a linear direction and rotational energy and inertia?

A Former Brilliant Member - 2 years, 8 months ago

I agree with one of the replies that the ball will never reach the end because the system is not defined as being frictionless.

David Norman - 2 years, 8 months ago

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If the surface is frictionless then the ball will slip off from the track.

Ram Mohith - 2 years, 8 months ago

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ok ....doesn't state 'no air resistance'.

David Norman - 2 years, 8 months ago

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@David Norman Friction and air resistance although present they will act in a similar way and exert a similar force on both the balls so they can be neglected.

Ram Mohith - 2 years, 8 months ago

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@Ram Mohith yes but if the ball has to do any work during its passage then it will never reach the same height that it started from. So if there is any friction or air resistance then there will not be enough energy to get back to the same height. so the correct answer is that they will take the same time to reach the end ..... never.

David Norman - 2 years, 8 months ago

The kinetic energy will be the same due to conservation of energy and as it has 1 slope up and 1 slope down with the same angle,height,etc. It should reach at the same time . Pls check the question or tell me if i am wrong

Kaveesh Kulkarni - 2 years, 8 months ago

I think it should be that they reach at the same time due to conservation of energy. Since they start at the same height, they have the same total mechanical energy and they end at the same height therefore they have the same gravitational potential energy and consequently the same kinetic energy.

Danielle Wilson - 2 years, 8 months ago

Apparently A is the correct answer. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GJujClGYJQ

Joseph Omega - 2 years, 8 months ago

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I think you mean B is the correct answer. The video you posted shows a nearly exact physical representation of this problem and it clearly shows the ball on track B winning the race.

Edward Rogers - 2 years, 8 months ago

The maximum (and average) speed on B will be higher, but track B is longer and the air resistance will be greater on B due to the faster speed. Not enough info to answer this question.

J Yoest - 2 years, 8 months ago

Consider that the depth of the dip in track B is not defined. So, push that depth to infinity for argument's sake. Now, it is easy to see that the ball will take a lot of (infinite) time to get to the dip in track B, while the ball on track A simply plods along to the finish line. A is the correct answer. B will lose by more and more time in this scenario as the depth of the dip increases.

Bill Marksteiner - 2 years, 8 months ago

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However, I suppose that the angle of the dip and length of the track matter as well... if short enough, B could win. So, I think that there is not enough information to definitively solve.

Bill Marksteiner - 2 years, 8 months ago

Keeping the track length finite.. can we always guarantee B wins

Karthik Rambhatla - 2 years, 8 months ago

But wouldn't the uphill slow it down?

Half-god Dragon - 2 years, 8 months ago

Here's a good visualization/intuition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87E0DKs5bok

Eric S - 2 years, 7 months ago

I gave it the 100th up vote! Haha.

Muhammad Adnan - 2 years, 7 months ago
Tolga Gürol
Sep 30, 2018

This is not a solution!

I think this video by 3b1b is pretty much relevant to this question.

How is that relevant AT ALL?! -.-

C . - 2 years, 8 months ago

Great video. Thanks for sharing.

Simone Mendes - 2 years, 8 months ago

Let's say, hypothetically, I don't want to watch a 16 minute video to figure out why you think it's relevant. Could you point to the relevant section and/or explain your thinking?

Richard Desper - 2 years, 8 months ago

the problem with this is that the brachistochrone curve is fastest descent, but this is not just a descent, it seems more of energy from the drop. this guy literally made the track though for visual, https://youtu.be/_GJujClGYJQ

Ralph Tirella - 2 years, 8 months ago

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Yes, the video you suggest is much more appropriate for this problem. Thanks for sharing.

C . - 2 years, 8 months ago

At 4:07 our scenario setup is available Thanks for the link

Karthik Rambhatla - 2 years, 8 months ago

Very cool video. I was thinking of optics and Fermat's principle (although I didn't know what it was called) when I chose my answer.

Tim Rammel - 2 years, 8 months ago

What if we look at the general state where the two slanted parts of track B are much longer (but steep)? Say, each is 10 meters long in 75% slope. Would it still be track B the faster one? Can someone point me to a more general analysis for this?

Noam Liron - 2 years, 8 months ago

Thank you for routing me to 3b1b. Can we solve this question with analytic equations. As they did using snells law

Karthik Rambhatla - 2 years, 8 months ago
Ram Mohith
Sep 24, 2018

In track B the depth of the track is more than that of A. Hence, when the ball is rolling on track B it will have more potential energy stored than when it is rolling on track A. By conservation of energy we know that all potential energy stored is transformed into kinetic energy which means more the potential energy the body store's more is the velocity and faster the ball will move. Therefore the ball will reach the other end more faster in track B.

When the ball is actually rolling along the track B, that is along the lower part of it, it has less not more potential energy.

Marta Reece - 2 years, 8 months ago

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Exactly. Dunno why Ram thinks it has more potential energy."stored when the ball is rolling on track B"

Michael McLaughlin - 2 years, 8 months ago

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He means the ball on track B gets to convert more of its potential energy into kinetic energy than ball A. Technically you are correct. They both start at the same height, so they begin with the same potential energy. But ball B definitely wins this race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GJujClGYJQ

Edward Rogers - 2 years, 8 months ago

At the end of track B the ball have to move up loosing the Kinect energy and the velocity, also the lenght of B is greater then A, so more energy is lost due to the attrict.

Silvio Antunes - 2 years, 8 months ago
Chez Townsend
Oct 1, 2018

This 4 second video shows that as Ball B on the dipped track goes steeply down its horizontal velocity increases, so it gets ahead. Even though it slows down again to the speed of the other ball as the tracks even out, Ball B stays ahead, and wins the race.

Eric Roberts
Oct 4, 2018

I initially got this wrong, and was having trouble reconciling the solutions given; so I decided to write my own solution.

Figure 1. shows a simplified side profile of the given tracks A and B ( A is Black and B is Red ). I begin my analysis at the position marked "0" in Figure 1.

At this point both balls have the same velocity (in the x direction), V V . From here lets compare the x components of their velocity as the balls traverse the distance D D from point 0 to point 3.

Ball A, 0-3 \displaystyle{\underline{\text{Ball A, 0-3}}}

From position 0 to 3 the velocity of ball a will remain unchanged. Namely V 0 V_0

Ball B, 0-1 \displaystyle{\underline{\text{Ball B, 0-1}}}

Figure 2. shows the forces acting on the ball relative to the common frame of reference between track A and B.

Summing the forces in the x direction we obtain. F x = N sin θ = m a x \displaystyle \sum{F_x} = N\sin\theta = ma_x from this we can see a x = N m sin θ > 0 a_x = \frac{N}{m}\sin\theta > 0 for all 0 < θ < π 2 0<\theta<\frac{\pi}{2}

As the ball traverses from point 0 to 1, it will undergo an acceleration in the x direction and as a consequence its component of velocity in the x direction will increase beyond that of V 0 V_0 . We can say for simplicity that the average component of velocity in the x direction between 0 and 1 is greater than V 0 V_0 or V 0 1 > V 0 \overline{V}_{0-1} > V_0

Ball B, 1-2 \displaystyle{\underline{\text{Ball B, 1-2}}}

At point 1 Ball B's a x 0 a_x \rightarrow 0 and the x component of its velocity will remain constant ( what it had obtained at the bottom of the incline) until it moves to point 2. Thus V 1 2 > V 0 V_{1-2} > V_0 for the duration of the interval 1-2.

Ball B, 2-3 \displaystyle{\underline{\text{Ball B, 2-3}}}

Ball B will undergo a mirror acceleration ( -x direction) from that of interval 0-1. Its x component of velocity will decrease from V 1 2 to V 0 V_{1-2} \text{ to } V_0 between point 2 and 3, meaning V 2 3 > V 0 \overline{V}_{2-3} > V_0 over the interval 2-3.

Figure 3. is representative of the velocities of the balls as they traverse from 0-3.

As a result the average x component of velocity of Ball B is larger in every interval over the distance D D , thus it will arrive at point 3 before Ball A.

Kazi Abu Rousan
Oct 2, 2018

We see that for for A the ball will go almost in same velocity but for B first the speed will be almost as same as A but then it will increase as it goes down , but then the ball have to go opposite to gravity but the effective velocity is more than ball in A and so the ball in B will reach first. There is also a nice mathematical point of view https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ca-5FO_tgH2wXMg2at1qemCMukqmAN0/view?usp=drivesdk This is the solution of a more generalized problem (same problem) proposed by John Bernoulli (if you like I can give that also)

There is a problem in variational calculus called brachistrone problem which is similar to this problem

*Brachistochrone. But how is it similar?! o.O

C . - 2 years, 8 months ago
Robo Floto
Oct 6, 2018

It appears as though both tracks are slightly declining from left to right. This is only a presumption coming from someone with no more than rudimentary understanding of physics, and the main reason I'm posting this comment is with the hope that someone will either correct me or point something new out to me.

Anyway, since both tracks are declining, then the first steep ascending slope on track b will be greater than the second descending slope, which would result in a positive increase in speed and an overall shorter account of time to get from point a to be when compared to track a. Whereas if the tracks were on level surfaces, then the two steeper slopes on track b would cancel each other out and thus both track a and track b would take the same amount of time (also if they were on level surfaces then neither would complete the whole track, correct?)

Jozko Mrkvicka
Oct 6, 2018

I got it right, but I do not think it is necessary the right solution. If the mass of the ball is low or the gravity is low then the speed increase would not compensate the longer distance.

If the track was perfectly flat, the ball does not move. If it is only a touch depressed in the center it would do the distance very slowly. So the more depressed clearly the faster the ball goes

Peter Macgregor
Oct 1, 2018

Suppose the initial down ramps and the final up ramps (which are identical for tracks A and B) are shrunk to zero. Then the ball on track A never gets going at all, and never gets to the other end! But ball B can roll down the slope, along the bottom, climb up the far slope and compete the journey, thus beating A by a country mile.

Once you have this insight it easy to intuit the correct solution.

Duncan Robertson
Sep 30, 2018

Basically, imagine you’re on a bike on track A, you will have one speed boost going down and go the full length getting you back up the hill. Then, imagine you’re on the same bike, but on Track B and now instead of one speed boost (potential energy), you get two boosts due to a greater drop (potential energy) but gaining more speed (kinetic energy) bringing you up the hills quicker than just one speed boost of track A.

Don't you also have a much greater climb on the far right. Changes in energy forms will enevitabley result in heat loss losing more energy to the environment. I would say that the acceleration would be more then offset by the deceleration moving up the other side. Are we taking friction into account here?

David Eddy - 2 years, 8 months ago

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You do not take friction into account, but you do assume it will not slip. You will have a steeper climb, but overall it will have more acceleration due to a greater increase in potential energy. You just think of it as maintaining the same velocity though, even though realistically it would in fact lose velocity going up the ramp. But the question is just asking a theoretical question, so you can just assume for this problem being easy that you are just thinking of things as simple as possible. Which means two drops will increase the speed of the ball and thus allow the ball on track B to reach the end faster.

Duncan Robertson - 2 years, 8 months ago

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