Repeated Roots

Calculus Level 2

There exists an expression with infinite nested roots that evaluates to an integer:

3 = 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + . 3=\sqrt{6+\sqrt{6+\sqrt{6+\sqrt{6+\sqrt{6+\cdots}}}}}.

How many integer values of x x between 1 and 1000 (inclusive) are there such that x + x + x + x + x + \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\cdots}}}}} is also an integer?


The answer is 31.

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10 solutions

Let y = x + x + x + y = \sqrt{x+ \sqrt{x+ \sqrt{x+\cdots}}} . Then we have:

y = x + y Squaring both sides y 2 = x + y Rearranging y 2 y x = 0 Solving the quadratic of y y = 1 + 1 + 4 x 2 Note that y > 0 \begin{aligned} y & = \sqrt {x+y} & \small \color{#3D99F6} \text{Squaring both sides} \\ y^2 & = x+y & \small \color{#3D99F6} \text{Rearranging} \\ y^2 - y - x & = 0 & \small \color{#3D99F6} \text{Solving the quadratic of }y \\ y & = \frac {1 + \sqrt{1+4x}}2 & \small \color{#3D99F6} \text{Note that }y > 0 \end{aligned}

Note that y y is integral when 1 + 4 x 1+4x is a perfect square. Note that 1 + 4 x 1+4x is odd therefore its root 1 + 4 x \sqrt{1+4x} is also odd, then 1 + 1 + 4 x 2 \dfrac {1+\sqrt{1+4x}}2 is integral whenever 1 + 4 x 1+4x is a perfect square.

Next we note that all positive odd perfect squares can be expressed as 4 x + 1 4x+1 . Proof: Let k k be any non-negative integer, then any positive odd perfect square is ( 2 k + 1 ) 2 = 4 ( k 2 + k ) + 1 = 4 x + 1 (2k+1)^2 = 4{\color{#3D99F6}(k^2+k)}+1 = 4{\color{#3D99F6}x}+1 , where x = k 2 + k \color{#3D99F6}x =k^2+k .

Then the number of x x between 1 and 1000 such that y y is integral is given by:

1 < x < 1000 1 < k 2 + k < 1000 2 k 32 \begin{aligned} 1 < & \ x < 1000 \\ 1 < k^2 & + k < 1000 \\ 2 \le & \ k \le 32 \end{aligned}

Since one k k gives one x x , we have 31 \boxed{31} integral x x 's between 1 and 1000 such that y y is also integral.

Exactly how I did it!

Zain Majumder - 3 years, 3 months ago

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# https://brilliant.org/weekly-problems/2017-04-03/intermediate/?p=3

max_range = 1000
from math import sqrt
count = 0
for i in range(1,max_range+1):
    if ((1+ sqrt(1+4*i))/2).is_integer():
        print  'y = %d, x = %d' %(int(((1+ sqrt(1+4*i))/2)), i)
        count+=1

print """There are %d integers with x in the range 1-%d where exists an expression 
with infinite nested roots that evaluates to an integer""" % (count, max_range)

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y = 2, x = 2
y = 3, x = 6
y = 4, x = 12
y = 5, x = 20
y = 6, x = 30
y = 7, x = 42
y = 8, x = 56
y = 9, x = 72
y = 10, x = 90
y = 11, x = 110
y = 12, x = 132
y = 13, x = 156
y = 14, x = 182
y = 15, x = 210
y = 16, x = 240
y = 17, x = 272
y = 18, x = 306
y = 19, x = 342
y = 20, x = 380
y = 21, x = 420
y = 22, x = 462
y = 23, x = 506
y = 24, x = 552
y = 25, x = 600
y = 26, x = 650
y = 27, x = 702
y = 28, x = 756
y = 29, x = 812
y = 30, x = 870
y = 31, x = 930
y = 32, x = 992
There are 31 integers with x in the range 1-1000 where exists an expression 
with infinite nested roots that evaluates to an integer

Michael Fitzgerald - 3 years, 3 months ago

Can we solve it this way? We know that for such expressions, when x is factorised in form of m(m+1), (m+1) is the integral value of the expression. So for this question we need to find the number of integers between 1 and 1000 which can be factorised into product of two conservative integers. So there are 31 pairs of consecutive integers whose product is between 1 and 1000. So our answer is 31.

Soham Abhishek - 3 years, 3 months ago

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I am not sure.

Chew-Seong Cheong - 3 years, 3 months ago

Sir could u pls explain how did u solve the equation 1<k^2-k<1000??

erica phillips - 3 years, 3 months ago

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1 < k 2 k < 1000 k 2 k 1 > 0 k k 1000 < 0 1 < k^2 - k < 1000 \implies k^2 - k - 1 >0 \implies k^-k - 1000 < 0 . For for k k . You can also estimate. For example, when k = 1 k=1 , k 2 k = 0 < 2 k^2 - k =0 < 2 , when k = 2 k=2 , k 2 k = 2 k^2-k = 2 . For k 2 k < 1000 k^2 - k < 1000 , k 1000 31.6 \implies k \approx \sqrt{1000} \approx 31.6 , When k = 32 k=32 , k 2 k = 992 < 1000 k^2-k = 992 < 1000 , but when k = 33 k=33 , k 2 k = 1056 > 1000 k^2 - k = 1056 > 1000 . Therefore, the answer is k 32 k \le 32 .

Chew-Seong Cheong - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Good one sir!!

erica phillips - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Erica Phillips But sir isn't it that x=k^2+K but in the inequation u have substituted x=k^2-K ??

erica phillips - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Erica Phillips Thanks, a typo.

Chew-Seong Cheong - 3 years, 3 months ago

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@Chew-Seong Cheong No problem sir!!!

erica phillips - 3 years, 3 months ago

This solution is wrong. There are 15 odd perfect squares less than 1000, not 31.

Vinayak Tilak - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Can you please show some mathematical proof to back it up?

L0gicWülf Schulman - 3 years, 3 months ago

The answer does not come from the number of odd perfect squares but from 1 < k 2 + k < 1000 1<k^2+k<1000 .

Chew-Seong Cheong - 3 years, 3 months ago

How did you get (2k+1)^2?

L0gicWülf Schulman - 3 years, 3 months ago

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( 2 k + 1 ) (2k+1) is a general expression for an odd integer, then odd number perfect square ( 2 k + 1 ) 2 (2k+1)^2 .

Chew-Seong Cheong - 3 years, 3 months ago

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oh, thank you

L0gicWülf Schulman - 3 years, 3 months ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Feb 18, 2018

Let y = x + x + x + = x + y y = \sqrt{x + \sqrt{x + \sqrt{x + \cdots}}} = \sqrt{x + y} . Square both sides to find that y 2 = x + y x = y ( y 1 ) . y^2 = x + y \ \ \ \ \therefore\ \ \ \ \ x = y(y-1). x x is an integer whenever y y is an integer, and the function x ( y ) x(y) is strictly increasing for y 2 y \geq 2 . The condition 1 x 1000 1 \leq x \leq 1000 requires 2 y 32 2 \leq y \leq 32 . (Note that 32 × 31 = 992 32\times 31 = 992 but 33 × 32 = 1056 33 \times 32 = 1056 .)

Therefore there are 32 2 + 1 = 31 32 - 2 + 1 = \boxed{31} values of y y that result in an acceptable value for x x .

Can we solve it this way? We know that for such expressions, when x is factorised in form of m(m+1), (m+1) is the integral value of the expression. So for this question we need to find the number of integers between 1 and 1000 which can be factorised into product of two conservative integers. So there are 31 pairs of consecutive integers whose product is between 1 and 1000. So our answer is 31.

Soham Abhishek - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Yes, if you replace 100 by 1000. And make sure to use to positive integers only.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Yes I did it for 1000. And got answer 31

Soham Abhishek - 3 years, 3 months ago

Sir why is it that y=(x+y)^1/2

erica phillips - 3 years, 3 months ago

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y = x + x + x + y . y = \sqrt{x + \underbrace{\sqrt{x + \sqrt x + \cdots}}}_y.

More formally, we define y 0 = x y n = x + y n 1 , y_0 = \sqrt x \\ y_n = \sqrt {x + y_{n-1}}, and we try to find the value of y = lim n y n . y = \lim_{n\to\infty} y_n. If this limit exists, then lim n y n = lim n x + y n 1 lim n y n = x + lim n y n y = x + y . \lim_{n\to\infty} y_n = \lim_{n\to\infty} \sqrt{x + y_{n-1}} \\ \lim_{n\to\infty} y_n = \sqrt{x + \lim_{n\to\infty} y_n} \\ y = \sqrt{x + y}.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Thanks a lot sir!!!

erica phillips - 3 years, 3 months ago

If y =1 this leads to x=0. This seems to imply that 1= sqrt(0+sqrt(0+......... Surely some mistake here.

Mick Rye - 3 years, 3 months ago

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For one thing, we were asked integers between 1 and 1000.

Also, 0 + 0 + 0 + = 0 \sqrt{0 + \sqrt{0 + \sqrt{0 + \cdots}}} = 0 . Not only is y = 0 y = 0 a solution of 0 = y ( y 1 ) 0 = y(y-1) ; it is also the limit of the sequence { y 0 = 0 y n = 0 + y n 1 \begin{cases} y_0 = \sqrt 0 \\ y_n = \sqrt{0 + y_{n-1} } \end{cases} and this limit is really what is denoted informally by y = 0 + 0 + 0 + y = \sqrt{0 + \sqrt { 0 + \sqrt{0 + \cdots}}} .

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 3 months ago

But y starts from 2!!!

erica phillips - 3 years, 3 months ago
Leonel Castillo
Feb 5, 2018

Let f ( x ) = x + x + x + x + x + f(x) = \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\dots}}}}} . Then, if f ( x ) f(x) exists (and it is easy to prove it exists by the monotone convergence theorem) then the relationship f ( x ) = x + f ( x ) f(x) = \sqrt{x + f(x)} must hold. Then f ( x ) 2 f ( x ) = x ( f ( x ) 1 2 ) 2 = x + 1 4 f ( x ) = x + 1 4 + 1 2 = 4 x + 1 + 1 2 f(x)^2 - f(x) = x \implies (f(x) - \frac{1}{2})^2 = x + \frac{1}{4} \implies f(x) = \sqrt{x + \frac{1}{4}} + \frac{1}{2} = \frac{\sqrt{4x + 1} + 1}{2} .

One important thing to note is that I ignore the possibility of a negative radical because from the given definition we know that for positive x x , f ( x ) f(x) has to be positive as well. After this, we have a new definition for our function which is much easier to manipulate. It is also much easier to see when f ( n ) f(n) will be an integer. We have a radical in our expression and it is necessary for that radical to evaluate to an integer so we have 4 n + 1 = m 4 n + 1 = m 2 \sqrt{4n + 1} = m \implies 4n + 1 = m^2 . This is now no more than a diophantine equation, and a very simple one too. Notice that what it says is that m 2 1 m o d 4 m 1 , 1 m o d 4 m^2 \equiv 1 \mod 4 \implies m \equiv -1,1 \mod 4 . So m = 4 k 1 m = 4k - 1 or m = 4 k + 1 m = 4k+1 . In the first case we would have n = ( 4 k 1 ) 2 1 4 = 4 k ( 4 k 2 ) 4 = 4 k 2 2 k n = \frac{(4k - 1)^2 - 1}{4} = \frac{4k(4k-2)}{4} = 4k^2 - 2k . We can easily solve the inequality 1 4 k 2 2 k 1000 1 k 16 1 \leq 4k^2 - 2k \leq 1000 \implies 1 \leq k \leq 16 so in this case there are 16 16 such numbers.

In the other case we would have n = ( 4 k + 1 ) 2 1 4 = 4 k 2 + 2 k n = \frac{(4k + 1)^2 - 1}{4} = 4k^2 + 2k and solving the inequality 1 4 k 2 + 2 k 1000 1 k 15 1 \leq 4k^2 + 2k \leq 1000 \implies 1 \leq k \leq 15 so there are 15 such numbers. This adds up to 16 + 15 = 31 16 + 15 = 31 such numbers.

There is still an extra constraint though. It must be that 4 x + 1 + 1 \sqrt{4x + 1} + 1 is divisible by 2. This is always the case because 4 x + 1 1 m o d 2 4x + 1 \equiv 1 \mod 2 which implies its square root is also 1 m o d 2 \equiv 1 \mod 2 and then if we add 1 1 to it we get an even number. So all of our 31 31 candidates work, making the solution exactly 31 31 .

There is a much more logical way. 1x1 works, 2x2 works....30x30 works, 31x31 works, 32x32 is too big, so there are 31 possibilities

Richard Nawrocki - 3 years, 3 months ago
Chris Brown
Feb 22, 2018

Let y = x + x + x + x + y = \sqrt{x+ \sqrt{x+ \sqrt{x+ \sqrt{x+\cdots}}}}

y = x + y y=\sqrt{x+y}

y 2 = x + y y^2=x+y

x = y 2 y x = y^2-y

Now we have x x as a function of y y . At this point, we are looking for integer values of x x between 1 and 1000. Any integer of y y yields an integer for x x , and since y 2 y y^2-y is strictly increasing, we simply need to find the lower and upper limits of y y to determine the number of values of x x between 1 and 1000.

y = 1 y=1 yields x = 0 x=0

y = 2 y=2 yields x = 2 x=2

So the lower limit of y is 2.

A good starting point to find the upper limit is 1000 \lceil\sqrt{1000}\rceil , since 1000 1000 < 1000 1000-\sqrt{1000} < 1000 , but close to the upper limit of y y .

1000 = 32 \lceil\sqrt{1000}\rceil = 32

y = 32 y=32 yields x = 992 x=992

y = 33 y=33 yields x = 1056 x=1056

Therefore, 2 y 32 2 \le y \le 32 .

The number of integer values of x x in the range 1 x 1000 1 \le x \le 1000 which satisfy the conditions of the problem are 31 \boxed{31} . We do not need to calculate the possible values of x x , other than those used to determine the limits.

Naren Bhandari
Feb 18, 2018

Well I wrote my solution similar to Sir @Chew-Seong Cheong too however, I tried to reduce it a bit so that it can be done with in mind . So let's make some observations for x = 2 , 3 , 4 , x =2,3,4,\cdots as below.

For x = 2 x=2 2 = 2 + 2 + + 2 + 2 = 2 2 2 + 2 2 2 + 2 2 2 + = 2 × 1 + 2 × 1 + 2 × 1 + \begin{aligned} & 2 = \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2+\sqrt{+\sqrt{2+\cdots}}}}\\& 2 =\sqrt{2^2 -2 +\sqrt{2^2-2+\sqrt{2^2-2+\cdots}}} = \sqrt{2×1 + \sqrt{2×1 +\sqrt{2×1+\cdots }}} \\& \end{aligned} Similarly for x = 3 x=3 3 = 6 + 6 + 6 + 3 = 3 2 3 + 3 2 3 + 3 2 3 + = 3 × 2 + 3 × 2 + 3 × 2 + \begin{aligned} & 3 = \sqrt{6+\sqrt{6+\sqrt{6+\cdots}}}\\& 3=\sqrt{3^2-3+ \sqrt{3^2-3+ \sqrt{3^2 -3+\cdots}}} = \sqrt{3×2 +\sqrt{3×2 +\sqrt{3×2+\cdots}}}\end{aligned} So in general for x x we can clearly note that x = x ( x 1 ) + x ( x 1 ) + x ( x 1 ) + \begin{aligned} & x = \sqrt{x(x-1) +\sqrt{x(x-1) +\sqrt{x(x-1)+\cdots}}}\\&\end{aligned} Shows that x x is an integer iff any integer nested is the product of consecutive integers where one of the integer is equal x x .

So between 1 to 1000 we can have 1 < x 1000 1 < x ( x 1 ) 1000 1 < 32 × ( 32 1 ) 1000 1 < 32 × 31 1000 2 x 32 \begin{aligned} &1< x \leq 1000 \\& \implies 1< x(x-1)\leq 1000\\& \implies 1< 32\times (32-1) \leq 1000 \\& \implies1 < 32\times 31 \leq 1000\\& \implies 2\leq x \leq 32\end{aligned} Hence there are exactly 31 31 integers for x x between 1 too 1000

Pj Van Camp
Feb 24, 2018

The integers that satisfy this equation are always right between consecutive squares.

So we can state that y will be an integer if y = ( x 2 + ( x + 1 ) 2 ) / 2 y = \lfloor(x^2 + (x+1)^2)/2\rfloor where x is an integer

In the example: 6 lies between 2 2 2^2 and 3 2 3^2 . Or in other words 6 = ( 2 2 + 3 2 ) / 2 6 = \lfloor(2^2 + 3^2)/2\rfloor

The highest value of x 2 x^2 so that x 2 x^2 < 1000 is 31

Denis Husadzic
Feb 24, 2018

n = x + x + n 2 x = x + x + n 2 x = n n 2 n x = 0 n = \sqrt{x+\sqrt {x+\ldots}} \implies n^2 - x = \sqrt{x+\sqrt {x+\ldots}} \implies n^2 - x = n\implies n^2 - n -x = 0

Polynomial n 2 n x n^2 - n - x in Z [ n ] \mathbb Z[n] has integer root if and only if it can be factored over Z \mathbb Z , i.e., if and only if there exist integers a a and b b such that n 2 n x = ( n a ) ( n b ) n^2 - n - x = (n-a)(n-b) . Expanding the RHS and comparing coefficients gives us a + b = 1 a + b = 1 and x = a b x = - ab which implies x = a ( a 1 ) x = a(a-1) . It is not loss of generality to assume that a a is positive (at least one of a a , b b is). Thus, the question is how many integers in [ 1 , 1000 ] [1,1000] are product of two consecutive positive integers. Since 31 32 < 1000 < 32 33 31\cdot 32 < 1000 < 32 \cdot 33 , we have that x { 1 2 , 2 3 , , 31 32 } x\in \{ 1\cdot 2, 2\cdot 3,\ldots, 31\cdot 32\} , so there are 31 31 integer values of x x .

3 = 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 3 = \sqrt {6+\sqrt {6+\sqrt {6+\sqrt {6+ \ldots }}}}

Notice,

3 = 6 + 3 3 = \sqrt {6+3} 3 = 9 \implies 3= \sqrt {9}

So, we have look for square roots which are integers from 1 1000 1 \rightarrow 1000 . So, let's start.

1000 = 10 10 \sqrt {1000} = 10 \sqrt {10}

10 10 10\sqrt {10} is not an integer. By trying multiple times, I finally came to 961 961 .

961 = 31 \sqrt {961} = \boxed {31}

Now we have our answer. I know that it's not a smart way of solving questions.

Rocco Dalto
Feb 23, 2018

Let N \mathbb{N} be the set of positive integers.

Let ( x N ) ( 1 x 1000 ) (x \in \mathbb{N}) \wedge (1 \leq x \leq 1000) and let y = x + x + x + . . . y 2 x = x + x + x + . . . = y y 2 y x = 0 y = 1 ± 4 x + 1 2 y = \sqrt{x + \sqrt{x + \sqrt{x + ... }}} \implies y^2 - x = \sqrt{x + \sqrt{x + \sqrt{x + ... }}} = y \implies y^2 - y - x = 0 \implies y = \dfrac{1 \pm \sqrt{4x + 1}}{2}

( x N ) ( 1 x 1000 ) y = 1 4 x + 1 2 < 0 (x \in \mathbb{N}) \wedge (1 \leq x \leq 1000) \implies y = \dfrac{1 - \sqrt{4x + 1}}{2} < 0 \therefore choose y = 1 + 4 x + 1 2 > 0 y = \dfrac{1 + \sqrt{4x + 1}}{2} > 0 for ( 1 x 1000 ) 4 x + 1 = j 2 x = j 2 1 4 (1\leq x \leq 1000) \implies 4x + 1 = j^2 \implies x = \dfrac{j^2 - 1}{4} for positive j j odd ( 1 x = ( 2 k + 1 ) 2 1 4 = k ( k + 1 ) 1000 ) k = 1 + 4001 2 = 31 \implies (1 \leq x = \dfrac{(2k + 1)^2 - 1}{4} = k(k + 1) \leq 1000) \implies k = \lfloor{\dfrac{-1 + \sqrt{4001}}{2}}\rfloor = \boxed{31}

Y=√(X+Y) Our condition is what both X & Y should be integers and the value of X should be in between 1 to 1000
1=√(0+1) but here our X value is 0 (i.e)<1. So neglect this expression
2=√(2+2)
3=√(6+3) which is given expression in question
4=√(12+4)
5=√(20+5)
6=√(30+6)
7=√(42+7)
8=√(56+8)
9=√(72+9)
10=√(90+10)
11=√(110+11)
12=√(122+12)
13=√(156+13)
14=√(182+14)
See in all the above expressions both the values of X & Y are integers
Think how long it will continue?
30x30=900
31x31=961 where we can get ----> 31=√(930+31)
32x32=1024 where we can get 32=√(992+32)
33x33=1089 where we can get 33=√(1056+33) but here our X value > 1000 so neglect this expression also
So from 1 to 33, neglect 1st & 33rd expressions
so we can get 31 such expression











right ans. is 30. I have counted that.Values of x between 1 & 1000 are 6,12,20,30,42,56,72,90,110,132,156,182,210,240,272,306,342,380,420,462,506,552,600,650,702,756,812,870,930,992. I have got these answers by C Programming.

Tarun Vaghela - 3 years, 3 months ago

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