Roots of a Rational Cubic

Algebra Level 5

How many ordered triples of rational numbers ( a , b , c ) (a, b, c) are there such that the cubic polynomial f ( x ) = x 3 + a x 2 + b x + c f(x) = x^3 + ax^2 + bx + c has roots a , b a, b and c c ?

Details and assumptions

The polynomial is allowed to have repeated roots. The polynomial ( x 1 ) 2 ( x + 2 ) (x-1)^2 (x+2) has 3 roots which are 1 , 1 , 2 1, 1, -2 , while the polynomial ( x 1 ) ( x + 2 ) (x-1)(x+2) has 2 roots which are 1 , 2 1, -2 .


The answer is 3.

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14 solutions

David Lin Kewei
May 20, 2014

By Vieta's relations, a + b + c = a a+b+c = -a a b + b c + c a = b ab + bc + ca = b a b c = c abc = -c ). Starting from the third equation, either c = 0 c=0 (case 1) or a b = 1 ab = -1 (case 2)

Case 1: We proceed to the second equation. a b = b ab = b )Thus b = 0 b=0 or a = 1 a = 1 .

Case 1.1: The first equation gives a = 0 a=0 . This has solution set a = 0 , b = 0 , c = 0 a=0, b=0, c=0 .

Case 1.2: The first equation gives b = 2 b = -2 . This has solution set a = 1 , b = 2 , c = 0 a=1, b=-2, c=0 .

Case 2: The third equation gives b = 1 a b=-\frac{1}{a} while the first equation gives c = 1 a 2 a c = \frac{1}{a} - 2a . Thus after substituting this into the second equation and simplifying, we have ( a 1 ) ( 1 2 a 2 2 a 3 ) = 0 (a-1)(1-2a^2 - 2a^3 ) = 0 . The second bracket has no rational roots (by using rational root theorem) so we have that a = 1 a =1 . This has solution set a = 1 , b = 1 , c = 1 a=1, b=-1, c=-1 .

Consolidating the three cases (yielding 1 solution each) gives 3 triples.

Yew Xin remarks that applying the rational root theorem directly, we know that a , b , c a, b, c are integers. How can we use this fact to simplify Case 2?

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years ago
Zi Song Yeoh
May 20, 2014

By Vieta's formula,

-(a+b+c)=a-----------(1)

ab+ac+bc=b---------(2)

-abc=c----------------(3)

(i) When c=0

-(a+b)=a

2a=-b----------------(1a)

ab=b(from (2))------(2a)

If b=0,a=0 from (1a)

If b is not equal to 0,a=1 from 2a and b=-2 from (1a).

Therefore,we have two solutions in this case,namely (a,b,c) = (0,0,0) and (1,-2,0).

(ii) When c is not equal to 0

ab= -1

b= - 1 a \frac {1}{a} -------(3a)

Substituting (3a) into (2),

-1- c a \frac {c}{a} +ac = - 1 a \frac {1}{a}

From (1),

-b-c=2a

Substituting (3a) and rearranging,

c= 1 2 a 2 a \frac {1-2a^2}{a} -------(1b)

Substituting (1b) into (2b),

2 a 2 1 a 2 \frac {2a^2-1}{a^2} - 2 a 2 a^2 = - 1 a \frac {1}{a}

Multiplying both sides by a 2 a^2 and rearranging,

2 a 4 a^4 - 2 a 2 a^2 -a+1 = 0

Factorizing,

(a-1)(2 a 3 a^3 -1) = 0

a=1 or 2 a 3 a^3 - 1 = 0

2 a 3 a^3 - 1 = 0

Factorizing,

(2^(1/3)a -1)(2^(2/3) a 2 a^2 + 2^(1/3)a +1) = 0

a=1/(2^(1/3)) or 2^(2/3) a 2 a^2 + 2^(1/3)a +1=0

Consider the latter equation

The discriminant is 2^(2/3) - 4(2^(2/3)) < 0

Therefore,the two solutions are complex

a =1/(2^(1/3)) is irrational.

Thus,the only rational solution is a=1.

From (1b) and (3a), we get (a,b,c) = (1,-1,-1)

From (i) and (ii), we have 3 solutions

Ze Tao
May 20, 2014

We can learn from the question that f(x)=(x-a)(x-b)(x-c). Because these are the three roots. And f(x)=x^3+ax^2+bx+c. So we factorization the f(x) and get: a+b+c=-a, ab+bc+ac=b, abc=-c. When c=0 there have ab=b, 2a+b=0. So there have two answers which are a=0,b=0 and a=1,b=-1/2. When c \neq 0 then ab=-1 and c=-2a-b and (a+b)c=b-ab. From these three equations we can get b^4+b^3-2b^2+2=(b+1)(b^3-2b+2)=0. (It can no longer factorization in rational numbers). So b=-1, a=1, c=-1 is the third answer. So there has three in total.

Kevin Lei
May 20, 2014

f(x) = x^3+ax^2+bx+c = (x-a)(x-b)(x-c), so by comparing the coefficients (Vieta's Theorem), we have three equations: a+b+c = -a ab+bc+ca = b abc = -c From the third equation, we have abc+c = 0 --> c(ab+1) = 0 --> c = 0 or ab = -1

In the first case, we have c = 0: Then ab = b --> b(a-1) = 0 so b = 0 or a =1. b = 0 gives a = -a --> a = 0. a = -1 gives -1+b = 1 --> b = 2.

In the second case, we have ab = -1: a+b+c = -a --> c = -2a-b ab+bc+ca = b --> c(a+b) = b-ab --> (-2a-b)(a+b) = b-ab --> -2a^2-3ab-b^2 = b-ab --> 2a^2+b^2+b+2ab = 0 Substituting ab=-1 and a=-1/b, we get: 2(-1/b)^2+b^2+b-2 = 0 --> b^4+b^3-2b^2+2 = 0. Using the rational root theorem, the only possibilities for rational roots are +/- 1,2 and only b = -1 works. Then a = 1 and c = -1.

Thus, we have three solutions: (0,0,0), (-1,2,0), and (1,-1,-1).

Saloni Gupta
May 20, 2014

The only monic polynomial with roots a,b,c is (x−a)(x−b)(x−c), so we must have abc = −a − b − c ,

                     **b = ab + bc + ca**,

                     **c = − abc**

If c=0, this becomes , ab = −a−b , b = ab , thus, either b=0 and a=0 or a=1 and b=−2.

If c≠0 , the third equation becomes ab = −1 ,

substituting b= −1/a into the first equation yields,

c = − 2a + 1/a , and then the second equation becomes

−1/a = 1 − 1/(a^2) − 2 (a^2)+1 . Multiplying through by a^2 yields

2 a^4 − 2 a^2 − a + 1 = 0.

The solution a = 1 is readily observable (on factorization) , 2 a^2 (a^2 - 1) - (a-1) = 0 which gives, (a-1) [2 a^2 (a+1) - 1] = 0 So, dividing through by (a−1) yields

2 a^3+ 2 a^2 −1=0 ,

which has one irrational and two complex roots (by computation). The solution a=1 leads to b = c = −1 .

Thus the only ordered triples are (0,0,0) , (1,−2,0) and (1,−1,−1) , with corresponding polynomials x^3, x^3 + x^2− 2 x * and * x^3 + x^2 −x−1 , respectively.

David Altizio
Dec 8, 2013

Note that by Vieta's Formulas we have the system of equations

{ a + b + c = a , a b + a c + b c = b , a b c = c . \begin{cases}a+b+c&=-a,\\ab+ac+bc&=b,\\abc&=-c.\end{cases}

From the third equation we either have c = 0 c=0 or a b = 1 ab=-1 . If the former holds, then our original two equations become a + b = a a+b=-a and a b = b ab=b . Once again, from this second equation we either have a = 1 a=1 or b = 0 b=0 , and these give b = 2 b=-2 and a = 0 a=0 respectively. Therefore, two possible ordered triples ( a , b , c ) (a,b,c) are ( 0 , 0 , 0 ) (0,0,0) and ( 1 , 2 , 0 ) (1,-2,0) . Both of these check.

If, on the other hand, we have a b = 1 ab=-1 , then the algebra gets a bit messier. We wish to try and isolate one of the variables in a single equation that we can possibly work with to extract roots. Note that the first equation becomes 2 a + b + c = 0 c = 2 a + b 2a+b+c=0\implies -c=2a+b . Plugging this and a b = 1 ab=-1 into the second equation gives

a b + c ( a + b ) = b 1 + ( 2 a + b ) ( a + b ) = b 1 + 2 a 2 + 3 a b + b 2 = b 2 a 2 + b 2 + b 2 = 0. \begin{aligned}ab+c(a+b)&=b\\1+(2a+b)(a+b)&=-b\\1+2a^2+3ab+b^2&=-b\\2a^2+b^2+b-2&=0.\end{aligned}

Now, we substitute b = 1 a b=-\frac1a into this equation (in the hopes of continuing our isolation) to get

2 a 2 + 1 a 2 1 a + 1 = 0 ( a 1 ) ( 2 a 3 2 a 2 1 ) = 0. 2a^2+\dfrac1{a^2}-\dfrac1a+1=0\implies (a-1)(2a^3-2a^2-1)=0.

It is clear that by the Rational Root Theorem the cubic has no rational solutions, so the only rational solution to this equation is a = 1 a=1 . Substitution gives the third and final ordered triple ( a , b , c ) = ( 1 , 1 , 1 ) (a,b,c)=(1,-1,-1) . This checks, as x 3 + x 2 x 1 x^3+x^2-x-1 factors into ( x 1 ) ( x + 1 ) 2 (x-1)(x+1)^2 . This gives 3 \boxed{3} possible ordered triplets that work.

Wonderful solution. Almost exactly what I had on my paper, except I am unsure what "Vieta's Formula" is... Is it absolutely necessary? or can we say:

x 3 + a x 2 + b x + c = ( x a ) × ( x b ) × ( x b ) x^3+ax^2+bx+c = (x-a) \times (x-b) \times (x-b)

Which expanded turns into:

x 3 + a x 2 + b x + c = x 3 + ( a b c ) x 2 + ( a b + a c + b c ) x + ( a b c ) x^{3}+ax^{2}+bx+c=x^{3}+(-a-b-c)x^{2}+(ab+ac+bc)x+(-abc)

Which implies:

a = ( a + b + c ) a=-(a+b+c)

b = a b + a c + b c ) b=ab+ac+bc)

c = ( a b c ) c=-(abc)

Luke Nelson - 7 years, 6 months ago

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You can learn more about Vieta's Formula by reading my writeup from last week, and work on the questions shared by other members of the community.

Note: In your first equation, I believe that the last term should be ( x c ) (x-c) instead of ( x b ) (x-b) .

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years, 6 months ago

What you did and Vieta's Formulas are exactly the same thing. More detail about them can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vieta's_formulas

David Altizio - 7 years, 6 months ago

If c=0,b=0 and a not equal zero , (a,0,0) is this triple a solution for our equation ?

Nabil Maani - 7 years, 6 months ago

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For ( a , 0 , 0 ) (a,0,0) the roots are ( a , 0 , 0 ) (-a, 0, 0)

Jorge Tipe - 7 years, 6 months ago
Jubayer Nirjhor
Dec 14, 2013

( x a ) ( x b ) ( x c ) = x 3 + a x 2 + b x + c (x-a)(x-b)(x-c)=x^3+ax^2+bx+c

From Vieta's formulae, we have...

a = ( a + b + c ) a=-(a+b+c)

b = a b + b c + c a b=ab+bc+ca

c = a b c c=-abc

Solving the system, we get...

( a , b , c ) = ( 0 , 0 , 0 ) , ( 1 , 2 , 0 ) , ( 1 , 1 , 1 ) (a,b,c)=(0,0,0),(1,-2,0),(1,-1,-1)

Total integral solutions: 3 \fbox{3}

Typo : Total rational solutions: 3 \fbox{3}

Jubayer Nirjhor - 7 years, 6 months ago

How did you solve them? They turned into dirty equations of higher powers when I tried.

Led Tasso - 7 years, 6 months ago

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It's trivial...

c = a b c c ( 1 + a b ) = 0 c = 0 or a b = 1 c=-abc ~~~~ \Longrightarrow ~~~ c(1+ab)=0 ~~~~\Longrightarrow ~~~ c=0 ~~~~~\text{or}~~~ ab=-1

When c = 0 c=0 , from the first two equations, we have... 2 a + b = 0 b ( a 1 ) = 0 b = 0 or a = 1 2a+b=0 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ b(a-1)=0 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ b=0 ~~~~ \text{or} ~~~~~~ a=1 When b = 0 b=0 , a = 0 a=0 . When a = 1 a=1 , b = 2 b=-2 . Hence, we have two sets... ( a , b , c ) = ( 1 , 2 , 0 ) , ( 0 , 0 , 0 ) (a,b,c)=(1,-2,0),(0,0,0)

When a b = 1 a = 1 b ab=-1 \Longrightarrow a=-\dfrac{1}{b} , from the first two equations, we get... ( b + 1 ) ( b b c + c ) = 0 b = 1 a = 1 c = 1 (b+1)(b-bc+c)=0~~~~~~~~~~\Longrightarrow ~~~ b=-1~~~~~~` a=1~~~~~~~~ c=-1

( a , b , c ) = ( 1 , 1 , 1 ) (a,b,c)=(1,-1,-1)

b b c + c = 0 b-bc+c=0 doesn't have rational solution. Hence, there are 3 \fbox{3} solutions.

Jubayer Nirjhor - 7 years, 5 months ago

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Can you explain why b b c + c = 0 b-bc+c=0 doesn't have rational solution?

Jorge Tipe - 7 years, 5 months ago
Akbar Gumbira
Dec 8, 2013

Using Vieta's Theorem, we have three equations:

1 ) a + b + c = a 1) a + b + c = -a

2 ) a b + a c + b c = b 2) ab + ac + bc = b

3 ) a b c = c 3) abc = - c

From looking at equation 3, the motivation is to divide the case into two:

CASE I

If c = 0 c = 0 , we get:

From equation 1:

4 ) 2 a + b = 0 4) 2a + b = 0

From equation 2:

5 ) a b b = 0 b ( a 1 ) = 0 5) ab - b = 0 \Rightarrow b(a-1) = 0

From 5 5 , either b = 0 b = 0 , or a 1 = 0 a-1 = 0 .

If b = 0 b = 0 , then from 4 ) 4) we get a = 0. a = 0.

If a 1 = 0 a-1=0 , or a = 1 a = 1 , then from 4 ) 4) we get b = 2 b = -2

From this case ( c = 0 ) (c = 0) , we get 2 solutions ( 0 , 0 , 0 ) , ( 1 , 2 , 0 ) (0, 0, 0), (1, -2, 0) , which are rational solutions.

CASE II

If c 0 c \neq 0 , then

From equation 1:

4 ) 2 a + b + c = 0 c = ( 2 a + b ) 4) 2a + b + c = 0 \Rightarrow c = -(2a+b)

From equation 2:

5 ) a c + b c b = 1 c ( a + b ) = b + 1 5) ac + bc - b = 1 \Rightarrow c(a+b) = b + 1

From equation 3:

6 ) a b = 1 a = 1 / b 6) ab = -1 \Rightarrow a = -1/b

Substituting c c from equation 4 ) 4) to 5 ) 5) we get:

( 2 a + b ) ( a + b ) = b + 1 -(2a +b)(a+b) = b + 1

Substitung a = 1 / b a = -1/b to above equation we get:

( 2 b + b ) ( 1 b + b ) = b + 1 ( b 2 2 b ) ( b 2 1 b ) = b + 1 -(\frac{-2}{b}+b)(\frac{-1}{b}+b) = b + 1 \Rightarrow -(\frac{b^2-2}{b}) (\frac{b^2-1}{b}) = b + 1

( b 2 2 ) ( b 2 1 ) = ( b + 1 ) b 2 b 2 ( b + 1 ) + ( b 2 2 ) ( b 2 1 ) = 0 -(b^2-2) (b^2-1) = (b + 1)b^2 \Rightarrow b^2(b+1) + (b^2-2)(b^2-1) = 0

b 2 ( b + 1 ) + ( b 2 2 ) ( b 1 ) ( b + 1 ) = 0 ( b + 1 ) ( b 2 + ( b 2 2 ) ( b 1 ) ) = 0 ( b + 1 ) ( b 3 2 b + 2 ) = 0 b^2(b+1) + (b^2-2)(b-1)(b+1) = 0 \Rightarrow (b+1) (b^2 + (b^2-2)(b-1)) = 0 \Rightarrow (b+1) (b^3 -2b+2) = 0

From above, we get b = 1 b = -1 or b 3 2 b + 2 = 0 b^3-2b+2 = 0

If b = 1 b = -1 then a = 1 , c = 1 a = 1, c = -1 . We get 1 more rational solution here: ( 1 , 1 , 1 ) (1, -1, -1)

If b 3 2 b + 2 = 0 b^3 -2b+2 = 0 , then we don't have any rational solutions for that b b simply by checking rational root test for b = ± 1 , ± 2 b = \pm1, \pm2

Hence, there are 3 \boxed{3} ordered triple rational numbers of ( a , b , c ) (a,b,c)

but the cubic always has at least 1 rational root by intermediate value theorem so the answer should be 4

naitik bhise - 7 years, 6 months ago

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the cubic has one real root but not rational root :)

Edmund Heng - 7 years, 6 months ago

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Indeed! Be conscious of what the theorem actually states.

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years, 6 months ago

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@Calvin Lin thank you

naitik bhise - 7 years, 6 months ago
Deepak Kamlesh
Dec 21, 2013

Let (x - a) (x- b) (x - c) = x^3 + ax^2 + bx + c. Then, we have

x^3 - (a + b + c)x^2 + (ab +bc +ac)x -abc = x^3 + ax^2 + bx + c implying

a = - (a + b + c) , b = (ab + bc + ac) and c = -abc.

Case i: c = 0 implies 2a +b =0 and b = ab.

If b = 0 then a = 0 so that (0,0,0) is a solution

If b is not equal to 0 then a =1 and b = -2 making (1,-2,0) a solution.

Case ii: c is not equal to 0. this implies that 1 + ab = 0.

We have 2a + b + c = 0 and b = ab + bc +ac. Multiplying by a in the 2nd equation we get,

ab =a^2 b + abc + a^2 c implies -1 = -a -c +a^2 c implies a^2 c - a - c + 1 = 0 implies

c (a^2 - 1) - (a - 1) = 0 implies (a - 1) (c(a + 1) - 1 ) = 0

Case i: if a = 1, c = -1 and b = -1 making (1,-1,-1) a solution.

Case ii: c( a + 1) = 1 implies c =1/ (a +1). Putting c = 1/ (a + 1) in a^2 c - a - c + 1 = 0 we get that

2a^3 + 2a^2 = 1. We claim that this has no rational solutions. If not, let a = p/q be a rational solution with gcd (p,q) = 1.

Then, we have 2 p^2 (p + q) = q^3.

Cae i: p is even and q is odd. In this case lhs is even and rhs is odd which is a contradiction.

Case ii: p is odd and q is even. In this case, 8 divides rhs whereas 8 does not divide lhs, since the only factor of 2 in lhs is just 2 itself, p^2 and p + q being odd. This is again a contradiction.

Case iii: p is odd and q is also odd. In this case lhs is even where as rhs is odd, this is again a contradiction.

Hence 2a^3 +2a^2 = 1 has no rational solutions.

So, the no of ordered rational triples with the required property is just 3.

Patrick Corn
Dec 9, 2013

We get a + b + c = a a+b+c = -a , a b + b c + a c = b ab+bc+ac = b , a b c = c abc = -c . If c = 0 c = 0 , we get a b = b ab = b and 2 a = b 2a= -b , which leads to ( 0 , 0 , 0 ) (0,0,0) and ( 1 , 2 , 0 ) (1,-2,0) . Otherwise we have a b = 1 ab = -1 , and ( a + b ) c = b + 1 (a+b)c = b+1 , and c = ( 2 a + b ) c = -(2a+b) , so a b = 1 ab = -1 and ( a + b ) ( 2 a + b ) + b + 1 = 0 (a+b)(2a+b) +b+1 = 0 . Plugging in a = 1 / b a = -1/b and multiplying through by b 2 b^2 , we get b 4 + b 3 2 b 2 + 2 = 0 b^4+b^3-2b^2+2 = 0 . Note that b = 1 b = -1 is a solution, which corresponds to ( 1 , 1 , 1 ) (1,-1,-1) . Dividing out by b + 1 b+1 gives b 3 2 b + 2 = 0 b^3 -2b+2 = 0 , and this has no rational roots (by the Rational Root Theorem; it suffices to check ± 1 \pm 1 and ± 2 \pm 2 ).

So there are a total of 3 \fbox{3} solutions.

Atul Anand Sinha
Dec 9, 2013

The only monic polynomial with roots a,b,c is (x−a)(x−b)(x−c), so we must have

abc=−a−b−c,=ab+bc+ca,=−abc. If c=0, this becomes

ab=−a−b,=ab, and thus either b=0 and a=0 or a=1 and b=−2.

If c≠0, the third equation becomes ab=−1; substituting b=−1/a into the first equation yields

c=−2a+1a, and then the second equation becomes

−1a=−1+2−1a2−2a2+1. Multiplying through by a2 yields

2a4−2a2−a+1=0. The solution a=1 is readily guessed, and dividing through by a−1 yields

2a3+2a2−1=0, which has one irrational and two complex roots (computation). The solution a=1 leads to b=c=−1.

Thus the only ordered triples are (0,0,0), (1,−2,0) and (1,−1,−1), with corresponding polynomials x3, x3+x2−2x and x3+x2−x−1, respectively.

This is, essentially, what I did.

Jacob Erickson - 7 years, 6 months ago
Daniel Feinstein
May 20, 2014

if f has roots a,b and c then x=a and x = b and x = c when f(x) = 0. Therefore we can then equate f(x) = (x-a)(x-b)(x-c). Multiplying the RHS and then equating the coefficients of both sides will yield 3 simultaneous equations witch through manipulation will yield the correct set (a,b,c) satisfying f.

Yew Xin Tan
May 20, 2014

Suppose ( a , b , c ) (a, b, c) are the rational roots of f ( x ) = x 3 + a x 2 + b x = c f(x) = x^3 + ax^2 + bx = c . It's obvious that ( 0 , 0 , 0 ) (0, 0, 0) are such triplet. Now suppose a a , b b , c c 0 \neq 0 . And by the rational roots theorem, a a , b b , c c are integers. Also by Vieta's formulas,

(1) a + b + c = a a + b + c = -a

(2) a b c = c abc = -c

From (2), we get a b = 1 ab = -1 or ( a , b ) = (a, b) = ( 1 , 1 ) (1, -1) , ( 1 , 1 ) (-1, 1) . Plugging in (1), we get ( a , b , c ) (a, b, c) = ( 1 , 1 , 1 ) (1, -1, -1) , ( 1 , 1 , 1 ) (-1, 1, 1) . Thus, our answer is 3.

Abhishek De
May 20, 2014

By Vieta's Rule, we have a + b + c = a , a b + b c + c a = b , a b c = c a+b+c=-a, ab+bc+ca=b, abc=-c . Solving we have two trivial solutions ( 0 , 0 , 0 ) (0,0,0) and ( 1 , 1 , 1 ) (1,-1,-1) . At last if we eliminate a , c a,c , we have the equation b 3 2 b + 2 = 0 b^3-2b+2=0 which has only 1 real root. [this can be seen using its discriminant]. So, in all we have three ordered pair of a , b , c a,b,c

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