Second Loneliest Number

Algebra Level 4

If x x x 16 = 16 , then evaluate x x x 12 . \Large \text{ If } x^{x^{x^{16}}} = 16, \text{ then evaluate } x^{x^{x^{12}}}.

Note: x x is a real number.


The answer is 2.

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11 solutions

Riccardo Frosini
Jul 28, 2015

We change the equation as follows: x x x 16 = x 16 ( x 16 ( x 16 16 ) 16 ) = 16 \LARGE{x^{x^{x^{16}}}=x^{16(\frac{x^{16(\frac{x^{16}}{16})}}{16})}=16} Then we replace x 16 x^{16} with y y : y ( y ( y 16 ) 16 ) = 16 \LARGE{y^{(\frac{y^{(\frac{y}{16})}}{16})}=16}

if we elevate to the power of 16 16 both side of the equation then we have y y ( y 16 ) = 1 6 16 \LARGE{y^{y^{(\frac{y}{16})}}=16^{16}} . It is trivial to see that the equation holds for y = 16. y=16. Thus, x x x 12 = x x 1 6 12 16 = x 1 6 8 16 = 1 6 4 16 = 2 \LARGE{x^{x^{x^{12}}}=x^{x^{16^{\frac{12}{16}}}}}=x^{16^{\frac{8}{16}}}=16^{\frac{4}{16}}=2

Could you explain more your first step ?

Mr Yovan - 5 years, 2 months ago

If x^x^x^16 = 16, that means x^16 = 16. That's the only way to get the iterative result x^x^x^16 = x^x^16 = x^16 = x. Hence x = 2^(1/4) and we can determine x^x^x^12 = x^x^2^3 = x^x^8 = x^2^2 = [2^(1/4)]^4 = 2. Very simple. But I did get it wrong the first time!

Anu Sood - 4 years, 5 months ago

People, note that the question is not the value of "x" but x^x^x^12 that results in 8. In the first assumption, x^x^x^16=16, if x=2 we never get the result!!!!!! Nelson ([email protected])

Nelson Coelho - 5 years, 7 months ago

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Well the value of x is around 1.185. x^x^x^12 doesn't result in 8.

Romain Farthoat - 5 years ago
Garrett Clarke
Jul 28, 2015

Please consider the following infinite power tower:

y = x x x x y=x^{x^{x^{x^{\dots}}}}

x y = x x x x = y x^y=x^{x^{x^{x^{\dots}}}}=y

x x y = x x x x = y x^{x^y}=x^{x^{x^{x^{\dots}}}}=y

x x x y = x x x x = y x^{x^{x^y}}=x^{x^{x^{x^{\dots}}}}=y

Let y = 16 y=16 and we have the following identity:

x x x 16 = x 16 = 16 x = 1 6 1 16 = 2 1 4 x^{x^{x^{16}}}=x^{16}=16\Longrightarrow x=16^{\frac{1}{16}}=2^{\frac{1}{4}}

Finding our value of x x x 12 x^{x^{x^{12}}} :

x 12 = ( 2 1 4 ) 12 = 2 12 4 = 2 3 = 8 x^{12}=(2^{\frac{1}{4}})^{12}=2^{\frac{12}{4}}=2^3=8

x x 12 = ( 2 1 4 ) 8 = 2 8 4 = 2 2 = 4 x^{x^{12}}=(2^{\frac{1}{4}})^8=2^{\frac{8}{4}}=2^2=4

x x x 12 = ( 2 1 4 ) 4 = 2 4 4 = 2 1 = 2 x^{x^{x^{12}}}=(2^{\frac{1}{4}})^4=2^{\frac{4}{4}}=2^1=\boxed{2}

Shouldn't you explain that for y y to converge, x x must be in a certain interval? And x 16 = 16 x = 1 6 1 / 16 x ^{16} = 16 \Rightarrow x = 16^{1/16} is not entirely accurate.

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago

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Actually, we don't need to state the interval of convergence. While I happen to know that the interval is x [ e e , e 1 e ] x \in [e^{-e},e^{\frac{1}{e}}] , our value of x that we choose will end up in this range by default! We have picked our value of y so that the infinite power tower does converge, it converges to y. Since the tower converges to y, we know it must be within our interval of convergence, even if we don't know what that interval is. I will, however, note that the tower cannot attain values less than 1 e \frac{1}{e} (because this is the value achieved by our lower bound), but seeing as y is well above this, we have no reason to worry. On the note about why there are multiple real solutions for x, if choosing a different value of x resulted in a different value for x x x 12 x^{x^{x^{12}}} , then your problem would have multiple solutions, and as I'm sure you know we can't post problems with more than one solution ;)

Garrett Clarke - 5 years, 10 months ago

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Well, since you're using an infinite power tower approach, you should show that it's only defined for the given range of x x as you mentioned, as it's a fallacy to make the assumption that there exist a solution.

Just because I posted this question does not give you a green light to say that this problem is actually valid. Unless I further stated that there exist a value of x x that satisfy the given equation, then it's alright.

Somemore, you need to show that for all values of x x yields the answer of 12, not just because of one particular value of x x . Yes, I know I'm being pedantic.

And yes, I thought of using the same approach when solving this problem. We think alike!

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Pi Han Goh True, I hadn't considered the possibility that there could be multiple solutions that we hadn't seen yet, I think you're safe for now though haha

It's actually unbelievable how alike we think because I was literally working on a problem to post involving the infinite power tower (which I'll be posting today by the way) when I saw your problem! Even crazier, during my research for the problem I came across this webpage , check out the post at the bottom ;)

Garrett Clarke - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Garrett Clarke That's odd, that person's name looks very familiar. ^_^

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Pi Han Goh This Y!A problem was posted 4 years ago. I know who gianlino is (one of the very best), but I am not too familiar with Mr G.

Michael Mendrin - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Michael Mendrin Haha no that's not what I was referring to, @Pi Han Goh answered the question at the bottom 4 years ago as well, I just happened to see his name and thought he might like the throwback!

Garrett Clarke - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Garrett Clarke ? Pi Han Goh is Gohpihan? Oh! I hadn't made the connection before. Both are familiar faces to me, but I didn't realize it's the same person. Hi, Pi. Or, hi pi.

Michael Mendrin - 5 years, 10 months ago

Thanks for explaining

Amartya Prakash - 5 years, 4 months ago

People, note that the question is not the value of "x" but x^x^x^12 that results in 8. In the first assumption, x^x^x^16=16, if x=2 we never get the result!!!!!! Nelson ([email protected])

Nelson Coelho - 5 years, 7 months ago

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DearNelson value of x isn't 2. We have x^4 = 2, i.e. x = 2^1/4.

Bhupendra Jangir - 5 years, 6 months ago

People, note that the question is not the value of "x" but x^x^x^12 that results in 8. In the first assumption, x^x^x^16=16, if x=2 we never get the result!!!!!! Nelson ([email protected])

Nelson Coelho - 5 years, 7 months ago

I solved the problem using the bisection method starting with initial values 1.1 and 1.2, This gives the correct answer. Here is the Matlab code.

But how you know that the answer is EXACTLY equals to 2?

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago

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Well, according to my solution, I don't know if there is a proof that the answer is definitely an integer since I rely on getting the value of x (which is a real number obtained to some accuracy depending on the threshold).

However the answer on Matlab is 2.000000 e + 000 \boxed{2.000000e+000}

Youssef El Ghareeb - 5 years, 10 months ago

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The exact answer for x x is ± 2 1 / 4 \pm \ 2^{1/4} .

I don't constitute your code as a proof, but it's something unexpected. I'm curious: is there a faster way to obtain a good approximation? That is, is there an algorithm better than bisection method that works faster than this?

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Pi Han Goh Well if this is converted into an equation with a zero, then how about the secant method?

Jack Lam - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Jack Lam I'm not sure which method you're referring to. Can you elaborate on it?

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Pi Han Goh Oh, I just realised that Newton's method would work better, but the Secant method is essentially the finite difference version of Newton's method (think finite differences instead of infinitesimal differences, and the limit definition of a tangent)

Jack Lam - 5 years, 10 months ago

@Pi Han Goh can we take the value of -2^(1/4) ? as the problem says, solve for real value of x.

Sanjoy Roy - 5 years, 7 months ago

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@Sanjoy Roy Yes. Why not?

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 7 months ago

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@Pi Han Goh i am unable to find that negative value.

Sanjoy Roy - 5 years, 7 months ago

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@Sanjoy Roy I've already given you the answer: 2 1 / 4 -2^{1/4} .

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 7 months ago

How can we determine value of low and high?

Mbah Abal - 5 years, 5 months ago

Suppose we define x^x^x = y, so the problem becomes: if y^16 = 16, what is y^12? If y^16 = 16, 16*log(y) = log(16), and log(y) = [log(16)/16 = .0752575, so y = 10^(.0752575) = 1.189207118. Then y^12 = (1.189207118)^12 = 2^3 = 8. Ed Gray]

Edwin Gray - 3 years, 9 months ago

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You got the rules of exponents wrong. See How are exponent towers evaluated?

Pi Han Goh - 3 years, 9 months ago
Anas Imtiaz
Dec 20, 2015

So my method might be a little peculiar but I hope it makes sense. At first, I looked at the left side of the equation and the first thing that immediately popped into my head was 'well 2 2 2 2^{2 ^ {2}} makes up 16 16 ' but that obviously did not cater to the 1 6 t h 16^{th} power. So the next thought was to substitute a value in to x x that would make the LHS of the equation equal to 16 16 . 'What if I let x x equal to some power of 16 16 ?' And that is what I did. I substituted 1 6 1 16 16^{\frac{1}{16}} in place of x x . The LHS essentially became

1 6 1 16 × 1 6 1 16 × 1 6 1 16 × 16 16^{\frac{1}{16}\times16^{\frac{1}{16}\times16^{\frac{1}{16}\times16}}}

Well, great! The LHS now equals to the RHS, i.e. 16 16 .

The next part was easier to calculate. Simply substitute 1 6 1 16 16^{\frac{1}{16}} in to the equation x x x 12 { x }^{ { x }^{ { x }^{ 12 } } } and solve to get RHS = 2 2 .

Great try, but it's not correct. You need to show that for ALL x x satisfying the given constraint, the x x x 12 x^{x^{x^{12}}} is always equals to 2.

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 5 months ago
Otuya Odeke
Aug 25, 2015

Let y = x 16 , t h e r e f o r e x = y 16 H e n c e i f x x x 16 = 16 , ( y 16 ) ( y 16 ) y = 16 T a k i n g t h e l o g a r i t h m t o t h e b a s e y 16 o n b o t h s i d e s y i e l d s ( y 16 ) y l o g y 16 y 16 = l o g y 16 16 ( y 16 ) y = l o g 16 16 l o g 16 ( y 16 ) ( y 16 ) y = l o g 16 16 1 16 l o g 16 y ( y 16 ) y l o g 16 y = 16 , w h i c h m e a n s t h a t , y ( y 16 ) y = 16 16 b u t ( y 16 ) ( y 16 ) y = 16 , i m p l y i n g t h a t [ ( y 16 ) ( y 16 ) y ] 16 = 16 16 = y ( y 16 ) y W e c a n t h e s a f e l y s a y t h a t ( y y 16 y 16 ) 16 = y y y 16 16 × ( y 16 y 16 ) = y y 16 , log y 16 + y 16 ( log y y log y 16 ) = y 16 T h e r e f o r e , ( 1 y 16 ) log y 16 = 0 , i m p l y i n g t h a t t h e a n s w e r i s e i t h e r y = 16 , o r t h e n o t v e r y i m p r a c t i c a l log y 16 = 0 s o y = x 16 = 16 x = 16 16 \quad y\quad ={ x }^{ 16 },\quad therefore\quad x\quad =\quad \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \\ Hence\quad if\quad { x }^{ { x }^{ { x }^{ 16 } } }=16,\quad { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y } }\quad =\quad 16\\ Taking\quad the\quad logarithm\quad to\quad the\quad base\quad \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \quad on\quad both\quad sides\quad yields\\ { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y }{ log }_{ \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } }\sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \quad =\quad { log }_{ \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } }\quad 16\quad \Rightarrow { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y }\quad =\quad \frac { { log }_{ 16 }16 }{ { log }_{ 16 }{ \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) } } \Rightarrow { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y }\quad =\quad \frac { { log }_{ 16 }16 }{ { \frac { 1 }{ 16 } log }_{ 16 }y } \\ { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y }\quad { log }_{ 16 }y=\quad 16,\quad which\quad means\quad that,\quad { y }^{ { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y } }\quad =\quad { 16 }^{ 16 }\\ \\ but\quad { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y } }\quad =\quad 16,\quad implying\quad that\quad \left[ { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y } } \right] ^{ 16 }=\quad { 16 }^{ 16 }\quad =\quad { y }^{ { \left( \sqrt [ 16 ]{ y } \right) }^{ y } }\\ \quad \\ We\quad can\quad the\quad safely\quad say\quad that\\ { \left( { y }^{ { \frac { y }{ 16 } }^{ \frac { y }{ 16 } } } \right) }^{ 16 }=\quad { y }^{ { y }^{ \frac { y }{ 16 } } }\quad \Rightarrow 16\times \left( { \frac { y }{ 16 } }^{ { \frac { y }{ 16 } } } \right) ={ y }^{ \frac { y }{ 16 } },\quad \log _{ y }{ 16 } +\frac { y }{ 16 } (\log _{ y }{ y } -\log _{ y }{ 16 } )\quad =\frac { y }{ 16 } \\ Therefore,\quad (1-\frac { y }{ 16 } )\log _{ y }{ 16 } =0,\quad implying\quad that\quad the\quad answer\quad is\quad either\quad y\quad =\quad 16,\quad or\quad the\quad not\quad very\quad impractical\quad \log _{ y }{ 16 } =0\\ so\quad y\quad =\quad { x }^{ 16 }\quad =\quad 16\quad \Rightarrow x\quad =\quad \sqrt [ 16 ]{ 16 } \\

There's another solution: x = 16 16 x = -\sqrt[16]{16} .

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 9 months ago

Will you please elaborate the first portion of 3rd line from the last ?

Ritabrata Roy - 3 years, 8 months ago

At first I got it wrong (8) since I was not familiar with the tetration, after looking it up I still am not sure how to get the 2 algebraically, I did get it numerically, in MATLAB it's pretty simple:

sol=fsolve(@(x)x^(x^(x^(16)))-16,1) %(=1.1892)

sol_final=sol^(sol^(sol^12)) %(=2)

However you have to be carefull with the use of parenthesis, if you give matlab:

sol2=fsolve(@(x)x^x^x^16-16,1) %(=1.1421)

sol_final2=sol2^sol2^sol2^12 %(=8)

Lu Chee Ket
Oct 5, 2015

Thank you for your solution. You're absolutely right.

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 7 months ago
David Moore
Nov 10, 2015

Well, I got the right answer, but I made the same dumb mistake as a couple of others did below, and just lucked into it. Is there a way to re-cast this problem so that you can't luck into the answer by just saying, "Oh, x x x 12 x^{x^{x^{12}}} is the 4th root of x x x 16 x^{x^{x^{16}}} , so the answer must be 2." That is clearly not a generally correct statement, since ( x x x 12 ) 4 = x 4 ( x x 12 ) (x^{x^{x^{12}}})^{4} = x^{4(x^{x^{12}})} , and 4 ( x x 12 ) = x x 16 4(x^{x^{12}})=x^{x^{16}} ONLY in the case where x = ± 2 1 4 x=\pm 2^{\frac{1}{4}} , as in this problem.

Unfortunately no. But thanks for the attempting this problem! Hope you enjoyed it!!

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 7 months ago
Raghav Bakshi
Aug 6, 2015

Given x^x^x^16 = (x^x^x^12)^(x^4) =16 We now simply take the 4th root of the both sides of the equation which gives us x^x^x^12=2

So the square root of 2 2 1 100 \LARGE 2^{2^{1^{100}}} is 2 2 1 100 2 \LARGE 2^{2^{1^{100-2}}} ?

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago

I really don't understand this solution! Could you explain?

Ameya Daigavane - 5 years, 9 months ago
Chris Smith
Jul 31, 2015

X^X^X^16 = 16 and X^X^X^12 = ?

So X^X^X^12^4 = 16 and ?^4 = 16 thus ? = 16^1/4 which is 2

So the square root of 2 2 1 100 \LARGE 2^{2^{1^{100}}} is 2 2 1 100 2 \LARGE 2^{2^{1^{100-2}}} ?

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago
Hadia Qadir
Jul 29, 2015

If x^x^x = y, then y=16^1/16 (good). Therefore y^12 = 16^(12/16) = 8 WRONG! Remember that y = x^x^x and that equals 16^(12/16), so x = 2

Wrong. You can't just apply 16th root to both sides of the equation. a b c = a b × c a^{b^c} = a^{b\times c} is not true.

Pi Han Goh - 5 years, 10 months ago

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i got the answer as 8. what's wrong with my answer?

avinesh krishnan - 5 years, 4 months ago

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