Shot put

The world record for shot put is roughly 23 meters. If the world record shot was launched from 1.67 m above the ground, what is the minimum kinetic energy the shot must have had in Joules when launched?

Details and assumptions

  • A shot has mass 7.26 kg.
  • The acceleration of gravity is 9.8 m / s 2 -9.8~m/s^2 .
  • Neglect air resistance.
  • If you don't know what shotput is, check out this video shotput


The answer is 760.95.

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6 solutions

Benson Li
Dec 27, 2013

Equation in horizontal direction: 23 = x = v c o s ( θ ) × t 23=x=v*cos(\theta)\times t let t t equal time it takes to travel 23 m 23m

Equation in vertical direction: 0 = y = 4.9 t 2 + v s i n ( θ ) × t + 1.67 0=y=-4.9t^2+v*sin(\theta)\times t+1.67 . It is zero because at t t , ball is back on the ground.

Kinetic energy is 1 2 × m v 2 \frac{1}{2} \times m*v^2 . Since mass is given, it is obvious that v 2 v^2 must be minimized.

We know the trig identity v 2 = ( v c o s ( θ ) ) 2 + ( v s i n ( θ ) ) 2 v^2=(v*cos(\theta))^2+(v*sin(\theta))^2 . Now, the trick is that both kinematic equations can be solved for v c o s ( θ ) v*cos(\theta) and v s i n ( θ ) v*sin(\theta) respectively, and without much difficulty.

v c o s ( θ ) = 23 t vcos(\theta)=\dfrac{23}{t}

v s i n ( θ ) = 4.9 t 2 1.67 t vsin(\theta)=\dfrac{4.9t^2-1.67}{t}

Substituting the kinematic equation into the trig identity, we get ( 4.9 t 2 1.67 ) 2 + 2 3 2 t 2 \dfrac{(4.9t^2-1.67)^2+23^2}{t^2} . Using Wolfram Alpha or using the Quotient Rule and setting the derivative to zero, we get the minimum square of the velocity to be 49 500 × ( 17 ( 18401 ) 167 ) \dfrac{49}{500} \times (17\sqrt(18401)-167) , or roughly 209.627 209.627

K.E= 1 2 × 7.26 k g × 209.627 m 2 s 2 = 760.947 760.950 \frac{1}{2} \times 7.26 kg \times 209.627 \frac{m^2}{s^2} =760.947\approx760.950

Actually I derived formula for the energy and it came out as:

T = m 2 g R 2 R + h T=\frac{m}{2}\frac{gR^{2}}{R+h}

and when given values are used, it gives slightly different answer: 762.8 J \boxed{762.8 J}

Any explanation?

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

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It should be much interesting to know how you came to that formula! I tried hard but the equations where scaring... so I computed the numeric (same result 762.818) by Excel. Putting the initial angle at 45 degrees for logic reasons.

Luciano Riosa - 7 years, 5 months ago

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I see. Here is the derivation. I assume that velocity vector should be at an angle θ = 4 5 o \theta=45^{o} to the horizontal for range to be maximum with given kinetic energy. Then the components of velocity are: v c o s θ vcos\theta and v s i n θ vsin\theta

Let h h be the height from which shot was launched and h h^{'} be the maximum height above h h which shot can go. Let R R be the horizontal range of the shot.

We will first calculate the time it takes for shot to fall to ground after it has been launched. Let t 1 t_{1} be the time it takes for the shot to go up and come down at the same height (distance 2 h 2h^{'} ). It is very easy to see that:

t 1 = 2 v sin θ g t_{1}=\frac{2v \sin \theta}{g}

Let t 2 t_{2} be the time it takes for the shot to fall to ground after time t 2 t_{2} . Then we have:

h = ( v sin θ ) t 2 + 1 2 g t 2 2 h=(v \sin \theta)t_{2}+\frac{1}{2}gt_{2}^{2}

This gives:

t 2 = v sin θ g + v 2 sin 2 θ g 2 2 h g t_{2}=\frac{-v \sin \theta}{g}+\sqrt{\frac{v^{2} \sin^{2} \theta}{g^{2}}-\frac{2h}{g}}

Thus total time for which shot is in air is :

t = t 1 + t 2 = v sin θ g + v 2 sin 2 θ g 2 2 h g t=t_{1}+t_{2}=\frac{v \sin \theta}{g}+\sqrt{\frac{v^{2} \sin^{2} \theta}{g^{2}}-\frac{2h}{g}}

During this time, shot travels a distance R R with speed v cos θ v \cos \theta . This implies:

R = ( v cos θ ) ( v sin θ g + v 2 sin 2 θ g 2 2 h g ) R= (v \cos \theta)(\frac{v \sin \theta}{g}+\sqrt{\frac{v^{2} \sin^{2} \theta}{g^{2}}-\frac{2h}{g}})

Using t h e t a = 4 5 o theta=45^{o} , we get,

R = v 2 2 g + v 2 v 2 2 g 2 2 h g R=\frac{v^{2}}{2g}+\frac{v}{\sqrt{2}}\sqrt{\frac{v^{2}}{2g^{2}}-\frac{2h}{g}}

( R v 2 2 g ) 2 = v 2 2 ( v 2 2 g 2 2 h g ) \therefore (R-\frac{v^{2}}{2g})^{2}=\frac{v^{2}}{2}(\frac{v^{2}}{2g^{2}}-\frac{2h}{g})

After expanding, v 4 v^{4} terms get canceled and we are left with:

v 2 = g R 2 R + h \boxed{v^{2}=\frac{gR^{2}}{R+h}}

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Snehal Shekatkar It's very clear and neatly exposed. Thank you, Nehal, very kind (and very fast...) of you.

Luciano Riosa - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Luciano Riosa Thank you Luciano.. By the way, my name is Snehal.. not Nehal.. :-)

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Snehal Shekatkar I beg your pardon, Snehal. Your fine name is so difficult and I so old.

Can I bore you any more with this problem? By the way, I solved it eventually, when I realised (see here below my reply to Benson) that the angle was surely a 45° one.

Indeed starting from

V x = V c o s θ t V_x=V cos\theta t

V y = 1 2 g t 2 + V s e n θ t + h V_y= -\frac{1}{2}gt^2 +Vsen \theta t + h

you get

y = g 2 V 2 ( 1 + t a n 2 θ ) x 2 + t a n θ x + h y= -\frac{g}{2V^2} (1+tan^2 \theta) x^2 + tan\theta x + h

and, being y, x, θ \theta respectively 0, R, 45°

0 = g g R 2 V 2 R h 0 = g\frac{g R^2}{V^2} - R - h

that, with easy steps gives V, and the T valued in your formula.

And now last, but not least, a question:

What would be the minum energy required to put the shot(same conditions) on a plane higher (instead of lower) m 1,67 respect to the launch height?

Luciano Riosa - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Luciano Riosa Sorry for the late reply. Let us try to answer your question but before that may I request you to fix few typos in your equations? Instead of V x V_{x} and V y V_{y} , you should write x x and y y respectively. Also, there is an additional g g in the last equation. About the issue of angle, let me read other comments also and then let us discuss.. :)

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Snehal Shekatkar In my opinion, I think it's unnecessary to divide time into t 1 t_1 and t 2 t_2 . Take a look these equations: x = v 0 cos θ t t = x v 0 cos θ x=v_0\cos \theta \,t \;\;\;\; \Rightarrow \;\;\;\; t=\frac{x}{v_0\cos \theta} then substitute t \;t and θ = 4 5 \,\theta=45^\circ to y = y 0 + v 0 sin θ t 1 2 g t 2 y=y_0 + v_0\sin \theta \,t - \frac{1}{2}gt^2 and you will obtain the value of v 0 \;v_0 .

Tunk-Fey Ariawan - 7 years, 4 months ago

@Snehal Shekatkar umm it seems to me that you messed up the t 2 t_{2} part using the quadratic formula. It should be + 2 h g +\dfrac{2h}{g} instead of 2 h g -\dfrac{2h}{g} . Move the h over to the other side before using the equation. You will see that putting h -h in the equation give you the + 2 h g +\dfrac{2h}{g} . Other than that, look below for my explanation as to why you cannot assume the angle is 4 5 45^\circ .

Benson Li - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Benson Li I think what you are saying about angle is perhaps right.. I will think over it.. but where is the mistake in finding t 2 t_{2} ? I don't quite understand. Thanks

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Snehal Shekatkar This is what you wrote above.

h = ( v s i n θ ) t 2 + 1 2 g t 2 h=(vsin\theta)t_{2}+\frac{1}{2}gt^2

To use the quadratic formula to solve for t 2 t_{2} , we need to move h over to the over side

1 2 g t 2 + ( v s i n θ ) t 2 h \Rightarrow \frac{1}{2}gt^2+(vsin\theta)t_{2}-h

Using the quadratic formula on this equation should give you a sum rather than a difference in the square root part of the formula.

Benson Li - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Benson Li Thanks a lot! :-)

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

Got the same thing, but with a different formula

Sam Thompson - 7 years, 4 months ago

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Sorry, the result is incorrect.

Indeed the correct value of T is given by

T = 1 2 m g ( ( R 2 + h 2 ) + h ) T=\frac{1}{2}m\space g\space(\sqrt{(R^2+h^2)}+h)

Where R=23 and h=-1.67.

You could see the complete path here below from my last reply to Benson Li. (There were some typos, I'm sorry, which made it inintellegibile : such as a "d" instead of a "R" in the first and second equation and an "arctan theta" instead of "tan theta"...)

Luciano Riosa - 7 years, 4 months ago

For the easyness, the assumption I made was: "to make a world record, the shot must be launched at the optimum angle, which is 4 5 \,45^\circ ". But nice solution anyway.

Tunk-Fey Ariawan - 7 years, 4 months ago

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Same here, but I checked other angles just to be sure.

Sam Thompson - 7 years, 4 months ago
Ahaan Rungta
Dec 29, 2013

Note that, if v v is the original velocity and θ \theta is the initial projectile angle, we have (ignoring units): h = ( v sin θ ) 2 2 g h = \dfrac {(v \sin \theta)^2}{2g} and [ 2 ( h + 1.67 ) g + v sin θ g ] ( v cos θ ) = 23. \left[ \sqrt {\dfrac {2 \cdot (h+1.67)}{g}} + \dfrac {v \sin \theta}{g} \right] \cdot \left( v \cos \theta \right) = 23. Substituting, we get [ 1 4.9 ( 1.67 + v 2 sin 2 θ 19.6 ) + v sin θ 9.8 ] ( v cos θ ) = 23. \left[ \sqrt {\dfrac {1}{4.9} \cdot \left( 1.67 + \dfrac {v^2 \sin^2 \theta}{19.6} \right)} + \dfrac {v \sin \theta}{9.8} \right] \cdot \left( v \cos \theta \right) = 23. Solving for v v , we get v 5.92663 1 0 7 sec ( θ ) 3.11668 1 0 13 tan ( θ ) + 2.26298 1 0 12 v \approx \dfrac {5.92663 \cdot 10^7 \cdot \sec \left( \theta \right)}{\sqrt {3.11668 \cdot 10^{13} \cdot \tan \left( \theta \right) + 2.26298 \cdot 10^{12}}} We find, from this, that min ( v ) = 14.48 m/s min ( K E ) = 761 J \text {min} (v) = 14.48 \, \text{m/s} \rightarrow \text {min} (KE) = \boxed {761 \, \text{J}} .

@Ahaan Rungta very nice solution:)

Mardokay Mosazghi - 6 years, 8 months ago

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Thank you, @Mardokay Mosazghi !

Ahaan Rungta - 6 years, 8 months ago

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any tips on physics, book recomdendation etc. please? @Ahaan Rungta

Mardokay Mosazghi - 6 years, 8 months ago
Shreyas Balaji
Jan 12, 2014

We seek to minimize the initial kinetic energy, 1 2 m v 0 2 \frac{1}{2}mv_0^2 Since m m is constant, we factor that out and attempt to find the minimum value of 1 2 v 0 2 \frac{1}{2}v_0^2 .

Let θ \theta be the launch angle of the shot put. We have two equations from essential kinematics formulas:

4.9 t 2 + ( v 0 sin θ ) t = 1.67 -4.9t^2 +( v_0 \sin \theta) \, t = -1.67 (1)

v 0 cos θ = 23 t v_0 \cos \theta = \frac{23}{t} (2)

Rearranging (2) we have:

t = 23 v 0 cos θ t = \frac{23}{v_0 \cos \theta}

Substituting into (1):

( 4.9 ) ( 23 ) 2 v 0 2 cos 2 θ + 23 v 0 sin θ v 0 cos θ = 1.67 \frac{(-4.9)(23)^2}{v_0^2 \cos^2 \theta} + \frac{23 v_0 \sin \theta}{v_0\cos \theta} = -1.67

Rearranging and solving for v 0 2 v_0^2 :

v 0 2 = 2592.1 ( cos 2 θ ) ( 23 tan θ + 1.67 ) v_0^2 = \frac {2592.1}{(\cos^2 \theta)(23 \tan \theta + 1.67)}

Dividing by two:

1 2 v 0 2 = 1296.05 ( cos 2 θ ) ( 23 tan θ + 1.67 ) \frac{1}{2} v_0^2 = \frac {1296.05}{(\cos^2 \theta)(23 \tan \theta + 1.67)}

Now use calculus and a calculator or a CAS to find the minimum of the above. Multiply by m m , 7.26 7.26 at the end!

Lokesh Sharma
Dec 31, 2013

F o r m o t i o n i n x d i r e c t i o n , w e h a v e t h e f o l l o w i n g e q u a t i o n : v c o s θ t = 23 A n d f o r m o t i o n i n y d i r e c t i o n , w e h a v e g o t t h i s e q u a t i o n : 1.67 = v s i n θ t 1 2 9.8 t 2 T h e p r o b l e m i s a s k i n g t o m i n i m i z e t h e v a l u e o f v . I d i d t h i s u s i n d o n l i n e c a l c u l a t o r b u t c a n b e f o u n d b y h a n d t o o b u t i t w o u l d b e m o r e l i k e a m a t h s q u e s t i o n . P h y s i c s e n d s r i g h t h e r e . For\quad motion\quad in\quad x\quad direction,\quad we\quad have\quad the\quad following\quad equation:\\ \\ \\ \\ \qquad \qquad v\quad cos\theta \quad t\quad =\quad 23\\ \\ \\ And\quad for\quad motion\quad in\quad y\quad direction,\quad we\quad have\quad got\quad this\quad equation:\\ \\ \\ \qquad \qquad -1.67\quad =\quad v\quad sin\theta \quad t\quad -\quad \frac { 1 }{ 2 } 9.8\quad { t }^{ 2 }\\ \\ \\ The\quad problem\quad is\quad asking\quad to\quad minimize\quad the\quad value\quad of\quad v.\\ I\quad did\quad this\quad usind\quad online\quad calculator\quad but\quad can\quad be\quad found\quad by\quad hand\quad too\\ but\quad it\quad would\quad be\quad more\quad like\quad a\quad maths\quad question.\\ Physics\quad ends\quad right\quad here.

Note: The minimum value of v v occurs at 42.92 3 42.923 ^ \circ not 4 5 45 ^ \circ as a common misconception.

Lokesh Sharma - 7 years, 5 months ago

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I found the minimum velocity to occur at 33.7 degrees. Did any one else get this result? I got the same answer for the velocity squared and kinetic energy as others posted here.

David Garcia - 7 years, 5 months ago

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Show your work and we will see from there.

Benson Li - 7 years, 5 months ago
Milly Choochoo
Dec 25, 2013

Well first off, we know that we will need to give the shot put the least amount of kinetic energy when the angle is exactly at 45 o ^{o} (At least most people have come across that problem and found that solution). With that knowledge, we can derive the equations needed to solve for the missing variables.

Let the upwards direction be +y and the direction parallel with the floor and to the right be +x . (I'm assuming the shot put was thrown to right for no particular reason). Let the initial velocity of the ball at angle θ \theta from the ground be V 0 V_{0} . The shot put is initially at x = 0 x = 0 and y = 1.67 y = 1.67

*+y : * g t 2 2 + V 0 sin θ t + 1.67 = 0 \frac{-gt^{2}}{2} + V_{0} \sin \theta t + 1.67 = 0

*+x : * V 0 cos θ t = 23 V_{0}\cos\theta t = 23

Now you've probably noticed that t t is the variable that represents the time elapsed, and in this case, it is the time elapsed once the ball has hit the ground. Let's solve for V 0 V_{0} .

t = 23 V 0 cos θ t = \frac{23}{V_{0}\cos\theta} (derived from the +x formula)

Plugging it into the +y formula...

g ( 2 3 2 ) 2 ( cos 2 θ V 0 2 ) + 23 ( V 0 sin θ ) V 0 cos θ + 1.67 = 0 \frac{-g(23^{2})}{2(\cos^{2}\theta V_{0}^{2})} + \frac{23(V_{0} \sin \theta)}{V_{0} \cos \theta} + 1.67 = 0

529 g 2 cos 2 θ V 0 2 = 23 tan θ + 1.67 \frac{529g}{2\cos^{2}\theta V_{0}^{2}} = 23\tan\theta + 1.67

V 0 2 = 529 g 2 cos 2 θ ( 23 tan θ + 1.67 ) V_{0}^{2} = \frac{529g}{2\cos^{2}\theta(23\tan\theta + 1.67)}

Plugging in 9.81 9.81 in for g g and 4 5 o 45^{o} or π 4 \frac{\pi}{4} in for θ \theta , you will get V 0 2 = 210.3563 V_{0}^{2} = 210.3563 .

The kinetic energy of an object travelling very slowly compared to the speed of light can be modeled by the following equation.

K E = 1 2 m v 2 KE = \frac{1}{2}mv^{2}

Plugging in V 0 2 V_{0}^{2} for v v and 7.26 7.26 for m m we get...

K E = 1 2 ( 7.26 ) ( 210.3563 ) = 760.95 KE = \frac{1}{2}(7.26)(210.3563) = \boxed{760.95}

can't we use the conservation of mechanical energy principle for the Earth+Shot system directly?

Techwit Shah - 7 years, 5 months ago

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I can't think of a way to do it, considering that the ball must be thrown at 4 5 0 45^{0} from the ground.

I'm kind of dumb though, so that's probably a limiting factor.

How would you do that Techwit Shah?

Milly Choochoo - 7 years, 5 months ago

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The angle is not 45. Close, but not quite. Imagine instead of 1.67 meters it was launched on top of a mountain. Surely putting all the velocity horizontally will give u a larger range than all vertically. So, the launch height decreases the angle.

The above equation for the square of the velocity is correct. Use Calculus to find the minimum square of the velocity in terms of theta

Benson Li - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Benson Li Hmm. What I said was a bit unclear. Because putting the same velocity horizontally give u a larger range than vertically, you need less speed for the horizontal than vertical to achieve the same range. So, a higher launch height decreases the angle for the least kinetic energy given the above constraints.

Benson Li - 7 years, 5 months ago

@Benson Li I'm sorry, the angle is still 45. The largest range is acquired at the same height, though. So you have "to aim" to a point nearer (at your height) than the target. After, the put continuing its fall, and its horizontal speed, impacts the ground at the farthest possible distance.

Luciano Riosa - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Luciano Riosa The formula for the range equation is R = v 2 s i n ( 2 θ ) g R=\dfrac{v^2sin(2\theta)}{g} . Holding v constant, we can trivially see that the range is maximum at θ = 4 5 \theta= 45^ \circ . But, lets use calculus to prove this, because there may be times when the equation is too hard for us to see the maximum distance.

R ( θ ) = v 2 s i n ( 2 θ ) g R(\theta)=\dfrac{v^2sin(2\theta)}{g}

0 = d R d θ = 2 v 2 c o s ( 2 θ ) g 0=\dfrac{dR}{d\theta}=\dfrac{2v^2cos(2\theta)}{g} . The derivaitve is 0 0 when c o s 2 θ = 0 cos2\theta=0 , or 2 θ = 9 0 θ = 4 5 2\theta=90^\circ\Rightarrow \theta=45^\circ So, with calculus, we see the angle should be 45 degrees.

Now, the range equation is derived off solving t t from y = . 5 g t 2 + v s i n ( θ ) t y=-.5gt^2+vsin(\theta)t and substituting that expression into R = v c o s ( θ ) t R=vcos(\theta)t .

Doing the same procedure but with a constant in the y y equation, Snehal got this:

R = ( v c o s θ ) ( v s i n ( θ ) g + v 2 s i n 2 θ g 2 + 2 h g R= (vcos\theta)(\dfrac{vsin(\theta)}{g}+\sqrt{\dfrac{v^2sin^2\theta}{g^2}+\dfrac{2h}{g}}

I am, however, going to write an equivalent expression to that, namely:

R = v 2 c o s θ s i n θ g + v c o s θ v 2 s i n 2 θ + 2 g h g R= \dfrac{v^2cos\theta sin\theta}{g}+\dfrac{vcos\theta\sqrt{v^2sin^2\theta+2gh}}{g}

The left half is one half of the maximum range at level ground. If we let h 0 h\rightarrow 0 in the second half, or let the launch height approach zero, then we get back the orginal range equation. If h h increases, then the range increases, which should make sense, because now you have more time to go horizontally.

To find the maximum range, we have to resort to calculus. There is no way to see what the angle will be here, unlike the range equation at a level surface. If you plug that equation into a graphing calculator or mathematica with the constants v and g set to 1,some random h, over the interval 0 0 to π / 2 \pi/2 , you can see that the maximum range does not occur at θ = 4 5 \theta=45^\circ . In fact, as you increase h, the angle for maximum range decreases, and the graph gets clumped to the left.

Heres another way to think about it. On a level surface, throwing at θ = 9 0 \theta=90^\circ and throwing at θ = 0 \theta=0^\circ will net you the same horizontal displacement: 0 0 . In fact, if the angle is 1 degree, you get the same range as 89 degrees because of R = v 2 s i n 2 θ g R=\dfrac{v^2sin2\theta}{g} . We expect the maximum to be at 45 degrees because of this symmetry. Plug h = 0 h=0 into that equation I gave above. You will see that the graph is indeed symmetric. But, when you throw it off a cliff, at θ = 9 0 \theta=90^\circ , net horizontal displacement is still zero. But at θ = 0 \theta=0^\circ , we DO have a horizontal displacement, namely R = v 2 h g R=v\sqrt{\dfrac{2h}{g}} , where h is the height of the cliff. There is no symmetry here. So, we shouldn't expect the angle at maximum range to be 4 5 45^\circ . As to why the angle is lower than 4 5 45^\circ , try thinking about this.

Imagine throwing a ball off a infinitely high cliff. Well, throwing at an angle would be a waste of energy, right? if we simply push the ball off, the range will be infinite, no matter the angle. So, as the launch height increases, or as it approach infinity, the angle will decrease by that logic.

Aside from that, the problem was not asking for the maximum range! It asks for minimum K.E, or minimum v^2. We cannot assume that the maximum range will give us the minimum speed.

If my explanations below did not do enough justice, that may be because I was explaining an aspect that is not in this problem, the angle at which it is launched. The range equation gives us the maximum horizontal displacement given the launch height is zero and a fixed initial speed. In this problem, we are given a fixed displacement, non zero launch height, and unknown velocity. So, the range equation we are all familiar with simply does not hold.

But what is the point of the range equation anyways? It gives range, x x , as a function of some variables. How does that lead to minimum v^2? The reasoning goes as follow "The angle of maximum range at given velocity should be the angle of minimum kinetic energy at a given displacement." But if one cannot reason that out, then forget it. Both my solution and Milky's solution solve for v^2 explicitly. Because the problem asks for min/max of something, calculus is a very important tool here. Milky's solution will give you some insight on how the angle changes the kinetic energy needed, as his equation has v^2 in terms of θ \theta . But both equations will give you the same answer.

Benson Li - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Benson Li Why that + sign? I really don't see mistake in my calculation..

Snehal Shekatkar - 7 years, 5 months ago

@Benson Li Thank you very much Benson Li. You could actually add a little bit more to your logic & math proof of how we can't assume the critical angle to be 4 5 o 45^{o} . One [other] example of this is finding the critical angle when launching a particle down a slope.

I actually think that what you can do to find the critical angle in this situation (and in many other situations in 'simple' physics problems) is draw a line from the launch point to the end point, find the angle that that line makes with the horizontal, add that to 9 0 o 90^{o} , and then the angle that will bisect that larger angle ( 9 0 o + 90^{o} + angle below the horizontal) will be the critical angle.

Oh and the name's Choochoo... Milly Choochoo.

Milly Choochoo - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Milly Choochoo Forgive my ineptness, Milly Choochoo. It seems I need to put on my glasses. Or perhaps your black and white profile and name made me think of milk :P.

Anyways, I believe the critical angle for the problem you describe is correct. Mathematically, one would solve it with the two kinematics equation and the fact that when the object lands, y / x = t a n θ y/x=tan\theta .

Intuitively, I cannot say how the critical angle is 9 0 + ϕ 2 = 4 5 + ϕ 2 \dfrac{90^\circ+ \phi}{2}=45^\circ+\dfrac{\phi}{2} , where ϕ \phi is the angle with the horizontal. All I can say is that if we shift our coordinate system onto the slope, the angle has to be greater than 4 5 45^\circ , because gravity now has a component that is acting positively in the x direction of the new coordinate system, so throwing it at a higher angle would give more time for the object to accelerate horizontally. Perhaps looking at some graphs of range versus angle could shed some light on why exactly ϕ 2 \dfrac{\phi}{2} needs to be added to 4 5 45^\circ for the critical angle.

Benson Li - 7 years, 5 months ago

@Benson Li I’ve got it!

The reasoning of Snehal, and then, yours didn’t convince myself. You were right, on a quality level, but something was missing… So I rethink the problem from the very start (where I lost myself, and I don’t know - now - why…)

... and I found the correct solution.

I tried to show it now but I have problems with the LaTex. You'll read me shortly.

Happy New Year everybody!

Luciano Riosa - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Luciano Riosa Everyone, who follows this problem, has got that:

g d 2 ( 1 + t a n 2 θ ) 1 2 V 2 + R t a n θ h = 0 -gd^2(1+tan^2\theta) \frac{1}{2 V^2}+ Rtan \theta-h=0

So we have V 2 V^2 , that defines the kinetic energy

V 2 = g d 2 ( 1 + t a n 2 θ ) 2 ( R t a n θ h ) V^2=\frac{gd^2(1+tan^2 \theta)}{2 (R tan \theta - h)}

Here for easy reading, let a = g d 2 2 a=\frac{gd^2}{ 2} and u = t a n θ u=tan\theta , We can than write

V 2 = a 1 + u 2 R u h V^2= a \frac{1+u^2}{Ru-h}

(…simple! Isn’t it?) whose derivative is

d V 2 d u = a 2 R u + r u 2 R ( R u h ) 2 \frac{dV^2}{du}= a\frac{-2 R u +r u^2 - R}{(R u-h)^2}

which, at the minimum , equals 0. Then we have the quadratic

R u 2 2 h u R = 0 R u^2 - 2 h u - R=0

whose root we choose is

u = arctan θ = h + R 2 + h 2 R u = \arctan \theta = \frac{h + \sqrt{R^2+h^2}}{R}

So, at last we’ve got the “much searched angle” and the GENERAL SOLUTION! That in this particular condition (h=-1.67) is

θ = 42 , 92356 ° \theta= 42,92356°

And, of course,

E= 760,9474 Joules

Point.

Luciano Riosa - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Luciano Riosa I knew it! You can do this to get the angle.

arctan ( 1.67 m / 23 m ) 4.15288 4 o \arctan(1.67 m/23 m) \approx 4.152884^o

( 4.15288 4 o + 9 0 o ) / 2 47.0764420 1 o (4.152884^o + 90^o)/2 \approx 47.07644201^o

9 0 o 47.0764420 1 o 42.9235 6 o 90^o - 47.07644201^o \approx 42.92356^o

Milly Choochoo - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Milly Choochoo Good! Moreover if you examine attentively the algebraic expression of arctan θ \arctan\theta you can easily translate it in geometric meaning.

I bet that a person having top skill in Geometry would be able to find a beautiful construction of that (much discussed) angle .....

Luciano Riosa - 7 years, 5 months ago

yeah, i think it also works

Tony Lan - 7 years, 5 months ago

nice

Tony Lan - 7 years, 5 months ago
Anirudh Gopinath
Dec 27, 2013

v \times \sin 45 \times t - 4.9 \times t^{34} = -1.67m

v \times \cos 45 \times t = 23m

Solving for t you get

** t = \frac {23} {v \times \cos 45}

Then solving for v through substitution you get

* v = 14.49 m/s *

Applying KE = 0.5 m v^{2}

You get:

\boxed {761}

I'm a big fan of the Trajectory equation that expresses height (y) as a function of initial height, initial velocity, angle of launch and horizontal distance (x). Since we were given the initial height, final height, and horizontal distance I used this equation to create an equation that expressed initial velocity as a function of angle of launch. The derivative looked unkind, so I graphed the equation and numerically found the minimum value. I got the point (14.5 m/s, 33.7 degrees) as the minimal value. Then solved for Kinetic Energy.

David Garcia - 7 years, 5 months ago

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