Simple generalization, right?

Algebra Level 1

True or False?

For all reals k , k, there exist reals x , y , x,y, and z z satisfying x y + z + y z + x + z x + y = k . \frac{x}{y+z}+\frac{y}{z+x}+\frac{z}{x+y}=k.

True False

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

5 solutions

James Wilson
Nov 12, 2017

Take y = 2 y=2 and z = 1 z=1 (noting you cannot then take x = 2 x=-2 or x = 1 x=-1 ). I get the equation x 3 + 2 x + 1 + 1 x + 2 = k \frac{x}{3}+\frac{2}{x+1}+\frac{1}{x+2}=k . I cleared the denominators, and combined like terms, which resulted in the equation: x 3 + 3 ( 1 k ) x 2 + ( 11 9 k ) x + 15 6 k x^3+3(1-k)x^2+(11-9k)x+15-6k . Since the equation is a polynomial of odd degree in x x (cubic), there exists at least one real value of x x that is a solution. Also, there does not exist a k k that gives a root of x = 2 x=-2 , and likewise for x = 1 x=-1 , so we needn't worry about those. This can be seen by substituting them both ( x = 2 , 1 x=-2,-1 ) into the cubic, and seeing that k k vanishes, and each side of the equation gives a different value, resulting in a contradiction. So, this is enough to conclude that for any real number k k , there exists an ordered triple (of the form ( x , y , z ) = ( x , 2 , 1 ) (x,y,z)=(x,2,1) , for some x x ) that solves the equation x y + z + y x + z + z x + y = k \frac{x}{y+z}+\frac{y}{x+z}+\frac{z}{x+y}=k .

Let x =0. Then y/z + z/y = k, or y^2 + z^2 = 2yk, let z=ty, and k = y(t^2 + 1)/2. Given k, choose t, and solve for y. Ed Gray

Edwin Gray - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

I didn't understan what you did here, I think you've got a mistake. How do you get from y/z+z/y=k to y^2+z^2=2yk? Wouldn't be y^2+z^2=yzk? I thik you've confused z with 2. But continuing with your method we wil obtain t ^ 2-kt + 1 = 0 that has discriminant k^ 2-4 <0 then k € (-2,2). So sadly this does not conclude for all k.

Pau Cantos - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Paul, yes, you are correct. It should be y^2 + z^2 = zyk. Now let z = ty. Substituting, y^2 +t^2 y^2 = tY^2 k, and dividing by y^2, 1 +t^2 =tk. So given k, t^2 - tk + 1 = 0, and we have a quadratic equation for t in terms of k. I think that works, but thanks, Paul. Ed Gray

Edwin Gray - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@Edwin Gray Hi there. I'm just commenting in case you didn't see your flaw. Like @Pau Cantos said, the problem is that t t will be imaginary if 2 < k < 2 -2<k<2 (which implies either y y or z z would have to be imaginary). You may want to check out a couple other problems relating to this one by @Sharky Kesa https://brilliant.org/problems/strange-equality-condition/?ref id=1424428 and @Steven Jim https://brilliant.org/problems/inspired-by-sparky-kesa/?ref id=1424664. I found them quite entertaining!

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@James Wilson James, we are in agreement; see my latest post to Peter. Thanks, Ed Gray

Edwin Gray - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@Edwin Gray Gotchya ;)

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

As Pau pointed out, the above isn't a solution. But it's not a bad start.

Hint: Instead of x=0, try |x|<<|y|<|z|.

Peter Byers - 3 years, 6 months ago

Did anyone else try such an approach?

Peter Byers - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Peter, read my response to Paul; there was a typo; it should be zyk on the right side, not 2yk

Edwin Gray - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@Edwin Gray Yes, but I should clarify that I meant "such an approach" as taking x close to zero, but not necessarily equal to it. (I don't think taking x=0 can get you very far.)

Peter Byers - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@Peter Byers Peter, Ithink we can put this to bed. If you solve the quadratic equation for t, you get t =[ -k +/- sqrt(k^2 -4)]/2, s0 the scheme only works for k^2 >= 2. Thanks for your persistence. Ed Gray

Edwin Gray - 3 years, 6 months ago

The given equation reduces to the algebraic equation of third degree in x x , i.e. x 3 + x 2 ( y k y + z k z ) + x ( y 2 k y 2 + 3 y z 2 k y z + z 2 k z 2 ) + y 3 + y 2 z k y 2 z + y z 2 k y z 2 + z 3 = 0 x^3 + x^2 (y - k y + z - k z) + x (y^2 - k y^2 + 3 y z - 2 k y z + z^2 - k z^2) + y^3 + y^2 z - k y^2 z + y z^2 - k y z^2 + z^3 = 0 , which always has, as a polynomial of the odd degree, one solution, for any real values of k , y , z k, y, z .

A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

I didn't check your algebra, but, yes, it could be done that way. You just have to watch out for a couple of particular cases of when one of the variables is zero or when two denominators are the same. Those introduce an extraneous solution into the new equation.

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

And of course, none of the denominators can be zero! ;)

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

Perhaps we can consider the following restriction: Which integers k k have solutions in x , y , z Z x, y, z \in \mathbb{Z} or x , y , z N x,y,z \in \mathbb{N} ? k = 4 k=4 has those extraordinarily large solutions that has popped up all over the internet for example.

Sharky Kesa - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

That sounds like it could be interesting. Scroll to the bottom of this page https://mathoverflow.net/questions/264754/solution-to-a-diophantine-equation/275193#275193. Someone with the username of "individ" has a formula to find more solutions, but he's not sure if it's correct. By the way, the solution (11,9,-5) works with k=4.

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

And the other one (11,4,-1) works too. I just saw those on that page, but I was just trying to let you know that I tested them.

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@James Wilson There seems to be quite a bit of wealth of knowledge out there about this equation. I'm out for the night. Good luck Sharky.

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

Ye, but if we were restricting to N \mathbb{N} . then we get those large solutions.

Sharky Kesa - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@Sharky Kesa Ah, I understand now

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

@Sharky Kesa I'm pretty sure that there's no solution for all k when x,y,z are naturals. In fact, when k<3/2 there're are no positive reals x,y,z satifiing the equation.

Pau Cantos - 3 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

@Pau Cantos There are indeed solutions for natural k k , with x , y , z x, y, z positive integers. Have a look at k = 4 k=4 . It was shown recently that it has the smallest solution as

x = 154476802108746166441951315019919837485664325669565431700026634898253202035277999 , y = 36875131794129999827197811565225474825492979968971970996283137471637224634055579 , z = 4373612677928697257861252602371390152816537558161613618621437993378423467772036 x=154476802108746166441951315019919837485664325669565431700026634898253202035277999, \\ y=36875131794129999827197811565225474825492979968971970996283137471637224634055579, \\ z=4373612677928697257861252602371390152816537558161613618621437993378423467772036

Sharky Kesa - 3 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

@Sharky Kesa That's wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too big. Another method, perhaps?

Steven Jim - 3 years ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim You would have to look at modular elliptic curves for more info (I honestly don't have much of an idea on how they relate)

Sharky Kesa - 3 years ago

Log in to reply

@Sharky Kesa Oh... Those freaky, crazy curves which gives uncharacteristically large integers to deal with? Yeah, I know those. And I literally know nothing else about it.

I'm freaking out.

Steven Jim - 3 years ago

For positive integers, yeah. Not so big considering them being integers only.

I'm thinking if we can say that there are certain values of k k that there does not exist integer solutions. Ideas?

Steven Jim - 3 years, 2 months ago
Leonel Castillo
Nov 19, 2017

Lets first suppose that indeed for all real numbers k k we can find some real numbers such that x y + z + y z + x + z x + y = k \frac{x}{y+z} + \frac{y}{z+x} + \frac{z}{x+y} = k . If we now add 3 to both sides then we would have that x y + z + 1 + y z + x + 1 + z x + y + 1 = k + 3 \frac{x}{y+z} + 1 + \frac{y}{z+x} + 1 + \frac{z}{x+y} + 1 = k + 3 but the left hand side now can be written as ( x + y + z ) ( 1 y + z + 1 z + x + 1 x + y ) = k + 3 (x+y+z) \left( \frac{1}{y+z} + \frac{1}{z+x} + \frac{1}{x+y} \right) = k + 3 . Let's now substitute u = k + 3 u = k+3 because the statement "all k have solutions" is equivalent to the statement "all u have solutions" to get a new equation, ( x + y + z ) ( 1 y + z + 1 z + x + 1 x + y ) = u (x+y+z) \left( \frac{1}{y+z} + \frac{1}{z+x} + \frac{1}{x+y} \right) = u . Now, I want to find solutions or at least prove solutions exist for all u. I have now simplified the algebra, but it can be simplified further by picking x , y , z x,y,z such that x + y + z = 1 x + y + z = 1 . The candidates I chose were x = x , y = x + a , z = 1 a x=x, y = -x + a, z = 1-a where a is some arbitrary real number. If we now substitute this in we get the equation:

1 x + 1 + 1 x + 1 a + 1 a = u \frac{1}{-x + 1} + \frac{1}{x+1-a} + \frac{1}{a} = u . Now, by studying this function and its first derivative one finds three things. First, at the values where the function blows up it runs through all the negative numbers, so solutions for negative u are trivial (notice that at these values the function does not run through all the positive numbers though). Second, there is a root at x = 1 2 ( ( 3 a 2 + 4 a + 4 ) 1 2 + a ) x = \frac{1}{2} \left((-3a^2 + 4a + 4)^{\frac{1}{2}} + a \right) (for small enough a) and third, that for small enough a (taking 0 < a < 1 is enough), the function increases after that point asymptotically towards the limit lim x 1 x + 1 + 1 x + 1 + a + 1 a = 1 a \lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{1}{-x + 1} + \frac{1}{x+1+a} + \frac{1}{a} = \frac{1}{a} so by picking a small enough a a we can find a function that will yield a solution for all values in the interval [ 0 , 1 a ) [0, \frac{1}{a} ) so effectively for any given u, one can pick a small enough to find a function that will yield a solution.

For example, to find a solution to the original problem when k = 0 k=0 then put u = 3 u = 3 (because k=u-3) and choose a = 0.05 a=0.05 . Then a solution is approximately x = 1.05715 , y = 1.00715 , z = 0.95 x=1.05715, y= -1.00715, z=0.95 . But because one may pick smaller a a and find new solutions what has actually been proven is a slightly stronger statement, that all k have infinitely many solutions.

Can you demonstrate with an irrational? I.e. K=e?

Jeff Capbell - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

It makes no difference if it is rational or irrational but yes. If k=e then u = e + 3 and to be able to get an exact solution choose a = 1/(e+4). And plugging that into wolfram alpha gives approximately x=1.72 and you can see the exact solution in terms e here http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%2F(-x+%2B+1)+%2B+1%2F(x%2B1-+1%2F(e+%2B+4))+%2B+1%2F(1%2F(e%2B4))+%3D+e+%2B+3

Leonel Castillo - 3 years, 6 months ago
Rocco Dalto
Nov 21, 2017

Let x = a x = a and y = b y = b , where a , b R a,b \in \mathbb{R} and z a , z b , a + b 0 , ( a 0 b 0 ) z \neq -a, z \neq -b, a + b \neq 0, (a \neq 0 \land b \neq 0 ) and a b a z + b + b z + a + z a + b = k a \neq b \implies \dfrac{a}{z + b} + \dfrac{b}{z + a} + \dfrac{z}{a + b} = k

z 3 + ( a + b ) ( 1 k ) z 2 + ( ( a + b ) 2 ( 1 k ) + a b ) z + ( a + b ) ( a 2 + b 2 + a b k ) = 0. \implies z^3 + (a + b)(1 - k) z^2 + ((a + b)^2 (1 - k) + ab) z + (a + b)(a^2 + b^2 + abk) = 0.

Let F ( z ) = z 3 + ( a + b ) ( 1 k ) z 2 + ( ( a + b ) 2 ( 1 k ) + a b ) z + ( a + b ) ( a 2 + b 2 + a b k ) F ( z ) F(z) = z^3 + (a + b)(1 - k) z^2 + ((a + b)^2 (1 - k) + ab) z + (a + b)(a^2 + b^2 + abk) \implies F(z) has at least one real root( since a cubic polynomial with real coefficients has at least one real root ).

Choose the real root z = g ( a , b , k ) z = g(a,b,k) , then for each k R , ( x , y , z ) = ( a , b , g ( a , b , k ) ) k \in \mathbb{R}, (x,y,z) = (a,b,g(a,b,k)) satisfies x y + z + y z + x + z x + y = k . \frac{x}{y+z}+\frac{y}{z+x}+\frac{z}{x+y}=k. .

(Edit: he has fixed the things I pointed out here) I like your attempt at a generalization. I see a couple of restrictions that you did not take into account, however. If one of the variables is zero, then when you clear the denominators, you introduce an extraneous solution into the equation. So, one of the roots of the polynomial will be an extraneous solution. It's still possible to have three real roots of course, but it's not ensured. The same thing happens if two of the denominators are equal. I think those might be the only two issues though...

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

True, if one of the variables is zero say y = b = 0 y = b = 0 and x = a 0 x = a \neq 0 then we have a quadratic which does not ensure the existence of a real root. In fact z 2 a k z + a 2 = 0 z = a 2 ( k ± k 2 4 ) z^2 - akz + a^2 = 0 \implies z = \dfrac{a}{2}(k \pm \sqrt{ k^2 - 4}) which puts the restriction k > = 2 |k| >= 2 on k k .

If x = a = y x = a = y then again we have a quadratic which does not ensure the existence of a real root. In fact z 2 a ( 2 k 1 ) z 2 a 2 ( k 2 ) = 0 z = a 2 ( 2 k 1 ± ( 2 k 3 ) ( 2 k + 5 ) ) z^2 - a(2k - 1) z -2 a^2(k - 2) = 0 \implies z =\dfrac{a}{2} (2k - 1 \pm \sqrt{(2k - 3)(2k + 5)}) which puts the restriction ( k < = 5 2 ) ( k > = 3 2 ) (k <= \dfrac{-5}{2}) \lor (k >= \dfrac{3}{2}) on k k ..

Rocco Dalto - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Nice elaboration. Thanks for spelling that out for everyone. I'm sure some people will be thankful to see the details. I see you edited the solution as well. (You have a small typo. It should say a 0 b 0 a\neq 0 \wedge b\neq 0 .) I don't want to say I'm personally 100% sure it's full-proof now (because I might be wrong), but, nonetheless, nice job!

James Wilson - 3 years, 6 months ago

Thank god, now there is a generaliztion. Great job!

Steven Jim - 3 years, 6 months ago

Taking into account that the left-hand side is defined in the region D = { ( x , y , z ) x 0 , y 0 , z 0 , y z , z x , x y } D=\{(x,y,z)\mid x\ne 0,y\ne 0,\,z\ne0 , y\ne-z,z\ne-x,x\ne-y\} the given equation reduces to the algebraic equation of third degree in x x , i.e. x 3 + x 2 ( y + z ) ( 1 k ) + x ( ( y 2 + z 2 ) ( 1 k ) + y z ( 3 2 k ) ) + y 2 ( y + z k z ) + z 2 ( y + z k y ) = 0 , x^3 + x^2 (y + z) (1-k) + x( (y^2+ z^2)(1 - k) + y z(3 - 2 k) ) + y^2(y + z - k z) + z^2(y + z - k y) = 0, which always has one solution, for any real values of k k , and values of y , z y, z such that y 0 , z 0 , y + z 0 y\ne 0, z\ne0,y+z\ne 0 .

Hi, Slobodan. I just want to point out that if y ( 0 , 8 ( 2 k + 1 ) 2 ) y\in (0,\frac{8}{(2k+1)^2}) and y = z y=z (assuming my calculation is correct), then there will be no real number x x that satisfies the equation.

James Wilson - 3 years ago

Log in to reply

You might also want to check out Rocco Dalto's comment in response to me.

James Wilson - 3 years ago
Bauet Stevenson
Nov 25, 2017

I believe it is like a partial fraction and so if you perform the operation you get real nos and since real covers a lot the answers are covered

0 pending reports

×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...