Simulating Dynamics - 5.0

Difficulty: Quite hard.

Here's an ellipse of equation x 2 a 2 + y 2 b 2 = 1 \displaystyle \frac{x^2}{a^2}+\frac{y^2}{b^2} = 1 that's cut off at 3.5 < x < 3.5 -3.5 < x < 3.5 .

The elliptical surface has friction.

There is a mass at an initial position of x = 0.1 x = -0.1 that is sliding on top of the top part of the cut ellipse. There is a spring attached to a control device at the bottom (denoted by the black dot at the bottom part of the ellipse) and the mass at the top.

This control device has the exact same x x coordinate as the mass on the top part of the ellipse, and therefore the spring is always parallel to the y axis .

Forget about the bottom mass or anything to do with the bottom part of the ellipse; just know that the control device makes sure the spring is parallel to the y y axis. The control device is massless.

The top mass initially has zero velocity and is at a position where it is ensured that it will only slide to the left.

Knowing this, find the time t t in seconds it takes for the top mass to fall off, or in other words, to reach x = 3.5 x = -3.5 .

Relevant information:

  • The mass of the sliding object is m = 30 k g m = 30kg
  • There is an ambient gravitational acceleration g = 10 m / s 2 g = 10 m/s^2
  • The coefficient of friction is μ = 0.05 \mu = 0.05 , where the friction force is μ N \mu \bold{N} ( N \bold{N} is the normal reaction)
  • In the equation of the ellipse, a = 4 a = 4 and b = 8 b = 8
  • The spring constant is k = 5 N / m k = 5 N/m
  • The natural length of the spring is l = 2 l = 2 meters


The answer is 5.0856.

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2 solutions

Steven Chase
Aug 25, 2020

I got a bit different answer than what was expected (about 5.288 5.288 ). Let ( α , β ) = ( 1 a 2 , 1 b 2 ) (\alpha, \beta) = (\frac{1}{a^2}, \frac{1}{b^2}) . Derive an acceleration constraint equation.

α x 2 + β y 2 = 1 2 α x x ˙ + 2 β y y ˙ = 0 2 α x x ¨ + 2 α x ˙ 2 + 2 β y y ¨ + 2 β y ˙ 2 = 0 \alpha x^2 + \beta y^2 = 1 \\ 2 \alpha x \dot{x} + 2 \beta y \dot{y} = 0 \\ 2 \alpha x \ddot{x} + 2 \alpha \dot{x}^2 + 2 \beta y \ddot{y} + 2 \beta \dot{y}^2 = 0

For convenience, I started the mass at x = + 0.1 x = +0.1 and let it go until + 3.5 + 3.5 . Let u 1 \vec{u}_1 be the unit normal vector, and let u 2 \vec{u}_2 be a unit tangent vector opposite to the particle motion. For the sake of brevity, I will not derive these here. Let F g y F_{gy} and F s y F_{sy} be the vertical components of the gravity and spring forces. Write the Newton's 2nd law equations.

m x ¨ = N u 1 x + μ N u 2 x m y ¨ = N u 1 y + μ N u 2 y + F g y + F s y m \ddot{x} = N u_{1x} + \mu N u_{2x} \\ m \ddot{y} = N u_{1y} + \mu N u_{2y} + F_{gy} + F_{sy}

Plugging these into the constraint equation and solving for the normal force yields:

N = 2 β y ( F g y + F s y ) 2 α m x ˙ 2 2 β m y ˙ 2 2 α x u 1 x + 2 α x μ u 2 x + 2 β y u 1 y + 2 β y μ u 2 y N = \frac{-2 \beta y (F_{gy} + F_{sy}) - 2 \alpha m \dot{x}^2 - 2 \beta m \dot{y}^2}{2 \alpha x u_{1x} + 2 \alpha x \mu u_{2x} + 2 \beta y u_{1y} + 2 \beta y \mu u_{2y}}

Having solved for N N , plug these back into the 2nd law equations to solve for the accelerations. Numerical integration takes care of the rest.

Solution code is attached.

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import math

dt = 10.0**(-6.0)

m = 30.0
g = 10.0
mu = 0.05
a = 4.0
b = 8.0
k = 5.0
L0 = 2.0

alpha = 1.0/(a**2.0)
beta = 1.0/(b**2.0)

gamma = 1.0/math.sqrt(beta)

#########################################

t = 0.0

x = 0.1
y = gamma*math.sqrt(1.0 - alpha*(x**2.0))

xd = 0.0
yd = 0.0

xdd = 0.0
ydd = 0.0

maxres = 0.0

while x <= 3.5:

    x = x + xd*dt
    y = y + yd*dt

    xd = xd + xdd*dt
    yd = yd + ydd*dt

    u2x = -1.0
    u2y = gamma*alpha*x/math.sqrt(1.0-alpha*(x**2.0))

    u2 = math.hypot(u2x,u2y)

    u2x = u2x/u2
    u2y = u2y/u2

    u1x = u2y
    u1y = -u2x

    Fgy = -m*g

    s = 2.0*y - L0

    Fsy = -k*s

    right = -2.0*beta*y*(Fgy + Fsy) - 2.0*alpha*m*(xd**2.0) - 2.0*beta*m*(yd**2.0)
    left = 2.0*alpha*x*u1x + 2.0*alpha*x*mu*u2x + 2.0*beta*y*u1y + 2.0*beta*y*mu*u2y

    N = right/left

    xdd = (N*u1x + mu*N*u2x)/m
    ydd = (N*u1y + mu*N*u2y + Fgy + Fsy)/m

    res = math.fabs(alpha*(x**2.0) + beta*(y**2.0) - 1.0)

    if res > maxres:
        maxres = res

    t = t + dt

#########################################

print dt
print t
print ""
print x
print y
print ""
print maxres

#>>> 
#1e-05
#5.28854999997

#3.50000446073
#3.87311446683

#1.78214652926e-05
#>>> ================================ RESTART ================================
#>>> 
#1e-06
#5.28849700039

#3.50000029177
#3.87299701653

#1.78218324365e-06
#>>> 

So, do you think my solution's right? I thought that the normal force would just be F g cos ( θ ) + F s cos ( θ ) Fg \cos(\theta) + Fs \cos(\theta)

Btw thanks for solving the problem

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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It's difficult to compare, since our approaches are so different. Let's wait for somebody else to solve and see what they got

Steven Chase - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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True. So, your approach was to derive an equation for the normal force rather than run a routine and resolve forces. What do you think about my graph? Do you think it's a plausible result?

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik Yes, exactly. No force resolution in my approach, which I actually like quite a bit. Whenever we disagree, it is always subtle. So I'm sure your graph is qualitatively fine.

Steven Chase - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Steven Chase True. That's why I like your solution; it would be less computationally expensive for sure.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

Is it just me, or can we no longer see who solved problems? Lol

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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That feature has been non-functional for a long time now. I complained about it recently to the staff. Supposedly their developers know about it

Steven Chase - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

@Steven Chase Nice solution. Upvotes have been awarded.
By the way I am little bit stucking in the second case of this problem, because at that time the velocity of the particle will be different.


Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Interesting. I've started to learn about charge and electrostatic force; Coulomb's law.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik Fuck, I thought Steven sir commented me. He usually reply me very less.

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Talulah Riley 🤣 So he doesn't reply to you as much?

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik @Krishna Karthik Fuck, Again I thought this time Steven sir replied me.

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

I posted a new note on it. I'm curious to see if you know how to solve analytically. I was able to determine the form of the result empirically through simulation

Steven Chase - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Steven Chase Nice numerical approach. I think I found a video on how to solve the ODE analytically.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

This one should be doable by hand since the masses are equal. I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

Steven Chase - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

So, from what I gather, you are to write up Coulomb's law for both scenarios, and the final expression must include variables a , b , n , r 0 , t 0 a,b,n,r_0,t_0

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik FUCK I thought Steven sir replied me.
Bro if you don't know how to solve it, why are are you replying me.
And one more thing the answer is independent of r 0 r_{0} .

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

@Krishna Karthik you may feel that I am scolding you.
I am joking with you bro.

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Talulah Riley All good. I think I know how to solve it. So far I haven't even attempted it.

I will attempt it now; I am fine with Coulomb's law

Btw the correct grammar is "replying to me"

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik @Krishna Karthik Let's have a one blitz chess match.

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Talulah Riley Alright, coming up soon.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik @Krishna Karthik i want to play chess with Steven sir, but when i ask him that he plays chess?
He just ignored me.

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Talulah Riley Lol. I guess he's not the type of person for games.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

Bro I can't chat 'cause I said shit in Chess

btw nice series of moves. You had the game :)

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik what thing bro? What shit in chess? I didn't understand?

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Talulah Riley I meant I typed "shit" into the chatbox lol

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik @Krishna Karthik let's have a final match of 5min one more. This time no chatting only game.

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Talulah Riley Agreed. 10 mins.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

Nice game bro. Good checkmate :)

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik How much matches dou you want to loose.??

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Talulah Riley Lmao yeah; I'm just not seeing good combinations of moves anymore. My chess brain is dead.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Krishna Karthik
Aug 25, 2020

Simulating the dynamics by running a force computation routine is a nice way to attempt this problem.

In this kind of problem, there are two relevant components to each of these forces; tangential and normal. For that, I have calculated the unit tangent and normal vector of an ellipse:

t = a y b i ^ + b x a j ^ \displaystyle \vec{\bold{t}} = \frac{-ay}{b} \bold{\hat{i}} + \frac{bx}{a} \bold{\hat{j}}

t ^ = t t \displaystyle \bold{\hat{t}} = \frac{\vec{\bold{t}}}{|\vec{\bold{t}}|}

n = b x a i ^ + a y b j ^ \displaystyle \vec{\bold{n}} = \frac{bx}{a} \bold{\hat{i}} + \frac{ay}{b} \bold{\hat{j}}

n ^ = n n \displaystyle \bold{\hat{n}} = \frac{\vec{\bold{n}}}{|\vec{\bold{n}}|}

Normal forces

Normal reaction to gravity:

F g n ^ = m g cos ( θ ) n ^ \vec{\bold{F}}_{g \bold{\hat{n}}} = mg \cos(\theta) \bold{\hat{n}}

Normal reaction to spring force:

F s n ^ = k ( 2 y l ) cos ( θ ) n ^ \vec{\bold{F}}_{s \bold{\hat{n}}} = k(2y-l) \cos(\theta) \bold{\hat{n}}

Total normal force:

N = F g n ^ + F s n ^ \vec{\bold{N}} = \vec{\bold{F}}_{g \bold{\hat{n}}} + \vec{\bold{F}}_{s \bold{\hat{n}}}

Tangential forces

Ramp angle:

θ = tan 1 ( d y d x ) \displaystyle \theta = \tan^{-1} \left( \frac{dy}{dx} \right)

Tangential gravitational force:

F g t ^ = m g sin ( θ ) t ^ \displaystyle \vec{\bold{F}}_{g \bold{\hat{t}}} = mg \sin(\theta) \bold{\hat{t}}

Tangential spring force:

F s t ^ = k ( 2 y l ) sin ( θ ) t ^ \displaystyle \vec{\bold{F}}_{s\bold{\hat{t}}} = k(2y-l) \sin(\theta) \bold{\hat{t}}

Friction force (occurs tangentially):

F μ t ^ = ± μ N t ^ \displaystyle \vec{\bold{F}}_{\mu\bold{\hat{t}}} = \pm \mu |\vec{\bold{N}}| \bold{\hat{t}}

Total tangential force

F t = F g t ^ + F s t ^ ± F μ t ^ \displaystyle \vec{\bold{F}}_{t} = \vec{\bold{F}}_{g \bold{\hat{t}}} + \vec{\bold{F}}_{s\bold{\hat{t}}} \pm \vec{\bold{F}}_{\mu\bold{\hat{t}}}



Simulation code:

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time = 0;
deltaT=  10^-7;

x = -0.1;
xDot = 0;

y = sqrt(64*(1-x^2/16));
yDot = 0;


u = 0.05;
m = 30;
g = 10;
a = 4;
b = 8;
k = 5;
l = 2;

xValues = [];
times = [];

while x >= -3.5
    %xValues = [xValues; x];
    %times = [times; time];

    y = sqrt(64*(1 - (x^2/16)));
    theta = atan(-x/(2*sqrt(1-x^2/16))); 


    %unit tangent vector and unit normal to the ellipse 
    tangentVector = [-a*y/b b*x/a];
    unitTangent = tangentVector/norm(tangentVector); %unit tangent vector

    normalVector = [b*x/a a*y/b];
    unitNormal = normalVector/norm(normalVector); %unit normal vector

    %Forces
    Fg = m*g; %gravitational force magnitude
    springForce = k*(2*y - l); %spring force magnitude

    Ftgravity = Fg*sin(theta)*unitTangent;%tangential component (gravity)
    Ftspring = springForce*sin(theta)*unitTangent; %tangential component(spring)

    Fngravity = Fg*cos(theta)*unitNormal; %normal component (gravity)
    Fnspring = springForce*cos(theta)*unitNormal; %normal component (spring)

    %total normal force
    totalNormalForce = Fngravity + Fnspring;


    %friction force
    if xDot < 0 
        frictionForce = -1*u*norm(totalNormalForce)*unitTangent;    
    else
        frictionForce = u*norm(totalNormalForce)*unitTangent;
    end

    %total tangential force
    totalTangentialForce = Ftgravity + Ftspring + frictionForce;

    %numerical integration and tangential acceleration
    acceleration = totalTangentialForce/m;

    xDotDot = acceleration(1);
    xDot = xDot + xDotDot*deltaT;
    x = x + xDot*deltaT;

    time = time + deltaT;

end

%plot(times,xValues);

disp(time);

@Krishna Karthik Bro what is the meaning of x 0 x_{0} in the new problem??

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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It means the initial length of the rope that's hanging

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

Hey; I like your method to solve the charges problem.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik Let's have a chess match

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Talulah Riley I can't now; I'm going for piano class soon.

Krishna Karthik - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@Krishna Karthik @ @Krishna Karthik Ok no problem

Talulah Riley - 9 months, 2 weeks ago

@Krishna Karthik ok bro leave it, whatever you want to say, you are absolutely correct.

Talulah Riley - 8 months, 3 weeks ago

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