Someone began with 50 cents

Algebra Level 3

Anna, Brenda, and Cynthia are taking turns playing a two-person game. Each game, the player with the least amount of money bets it all, and the opponent calls it. The results of the games are as follows:

  • Anna and Brenda play the first game. Anna wins and thereby doubles her money.
  • Brenda and Cynthia play the second game. Brenda wins and doubles her money.
  • Anna and Cynthia play the third game. Cynthia wins and doubles her money.

All three of them end up with equal amounts of money.

They each started with an integer number of cents. One of the players started with 50 cents—who was it?

Anna Brenda Cynthia Impossible to answer

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9 solutions

Jeremy Galvagni
Jun 13, 2018

Let the starting amounts for A n n a Anna , B r e n d a Brenda , and C y n t h i a Cynthia be written as ( A , B , C ) (A,B,C)

After round 1) they have ( A + A , B A , C ) = ( 2 A , A + B , C ) (A+A,B-A,C)=(2A,-A+B,C)

After round 2) they have ( 2 A , 2 ( B A ) , C ( B A ) ) = ( 2 A , 2 A + 2 B , A B + C ) (2A,2(B-A),C-(B-A))=(2A,-2A+2B,A-B+C)

After round 3) they have ( 2 A ( A B + C ) , 2 A + 2 B , 2 ( A B + C ) ) = ( A + B C , 2 A + 2 B , 2 A 2 B + 2 C ) (2A-(A-B+C),-2A+2B,2(A-B+C))=(A+B-C,-2A+2B,2A-2B+2C)

Since these are the same we can now write the triple equation

A + B C = 2 A + 2 B = 2 A 2 B + 2 C A+B-C=-2A+2B=2A-2B+2C

Equating the first and third of this triple equation and solving for A:

A + B C = 2 A 2 B + 2 C A+B-C=2A-2B+2C

A = 3 B 3 C = 3 ( B C ) A = 3B-3C = 3(B-C)

This means A A is a multiple of 3. 50 is not a multiple of 3, so A did not begin with 50 cents.

Substituting this A into the first and second of the triple equation gives

( 3 B 3 C ) + B C = 2 B 2 ( 3 B 3 C ) (3B-3C)+B-C=2B-2(3B-3C)

8 B = 10 C 8B=10C

4 B = 5 C 4B=5C

This means B B is a multiple of 5 and C C is a multiple of 4. 50 is a multiple of 5 but not of 4. So B r e n d a \boxed{Brenda} began with 50 cents.

And for the record, their starting amounts were ( 30 , 50 , 40 ) (30,50,40)

Does the solution imply B and C can't be decimals?

e r - 2 years, 12 months ago

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I think it can be considered obvious that cents are the smallest unit.

Jeremy Galvagni - 2 years, 12 months ago

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I think it might still be best to note that they can't have any fractional money for those who don't live in the US. I've lived in the US so I understood the problem, but I don't know if everyone else would consider it obvious. :)

Nick Turtle - 2 years, 11 months ago

It definitely is not obvious that cents are the smallest unit. Even in the USA, there used to be smaller coins a few hundred years ago .

Depending on what you base the value of your currency on, e.g. 1 gram of gold (compare gold dollars ), a cent being one hundredth of it can still be a significant amount of money, and would still need to be subdivided. For the example given, such a cent would be worth about $0.40 and it would be very likely that there would be coins being worth a fraction of this number.

I'm glad that the problem has been clarified to include the requirement for an integer number of cents initially.

Roland van Vliembergen - 2 years, 11 months ago

whatif a had 90 cents initially then b would have 150cents and c would have 120cents in that case no have began with 50 cents

Ayush Sharma - 2 years, 12 months ago

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The title and text both say that someone began with 50 cents. Your equations may have other solutions, but they don't satisfy that condition of the problem.

Jeremy Galvagni - 2 years, 12 months ago

But it was NOT determined, that 50 cent is a real coin, not e.g. a PayPal account balance.... If Cynthia had 50 cent, then A had 0,375 cent (3/8 cent), and B had 0,625 cent (5/8 cent)

I think, so this problem is not correct :/

Tamás Taralyos - 2 years, 11 months ago

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It says in the question that everyone has to start with an integer number of cents. They can't start off with decimal values so Brenda starting with 50 cents is the only possible answer.

Shehan Nanayakkara - 2 years, 11 months ago

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The comment was posted before the question was changed to state that everyone had an integer number of coins.

Nick Turtle - 2 years, 11 months ago

You mean A had 37.5 cent and B had 62.5 cent. As this requires only half-cents, this definitely was possible (a couple of centuries ago), even in the USA with real coins . If the problem did not require an integer number of cents previously, you are correct that the right answer would have been "Impossible to answer".

Roland van Vliembergen - 2 years, 11 months ago

Poorly worded BS question. NEXT.

S I - 2 years, 11 months ago

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How is it poorly worded? I can't see any ambiguity in the wording of the question.

Shehan Nanayakkara - 2 years, 11 months ago

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Well, if the person who wins the round gets all the money, how come Brenda had 50 cents, Cynthia had 40, and Brenda WON a game against Cynthia (remember, if you have the smaller amount of money, you bet it all) and DOUBLED her money? Cynthia only had 40 and went all in, Brenda, who had 50, bet 40 and won, so she ended up with 90. 50*2 isn't 90.

I think 30, 50, 40 was the intended solution, but it doesn't make sense given the game rules.

Lucas Macedo - 2 years, 11 months ago

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@Lucas Macedo When Brenda won against Cynthia she didn't have 50 cents anymore, because she had just lost 30 cents to Anna in the first round.

Jeremy Galvagni - 2 years, 11 months ago

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@Jeremy Galvagni Oh, that's right, I stand corrected. Brenda had 20 cents when she played against Cynthia, my bad.

Lucas Macedo - 2 years, 11 months ago

in the question it says that the person with the least amount of money plays the game and hence doubling the money. In the second round of the game it says that Brenda and Cynthia play and brenda doubles her money... meaning that brenda has less money than cynthia... so how is it possible for brenda to have 50 cents and cynthia 40 cents?? also it doesnt say anywhere that the other player has to give that money to the other one... so why did you subtract in the answer??

stefanos charkoutsis - 2 years, 11 months ago

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B lost money in the first round (30 cents) to A. She then had less than C (20 vs 40), so she could double up.

Since no solutions give the money in hand after each round, here they are:

Start (30,50,40). After first: (60,20,40). After second (60,40,20). After last (40,40,40).

Jeremy Galvagni - 2 years, 11 months ago

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What does it mean when you say "and the opponent calls it" in the problem question?

Ah okay that makes sense though, thank you.

stefanos charkoutsis - 2 years, 11 months ago

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@Stefanos Charkoutsis That was not my original wording. The moderators try to be helpful and usually they succeed. In this case, they used a phrase that maybe not everyone knows.

When a player makes a bet for some amount, the verb "to call" means to accept that bet for that amount.

In some betting games, the opponent has the option "to raise" the bet to a higher amount. This obviously can't happen here.

Jeremy Galvagni - 2 years, 11 months ago

How do we know that the three players have an equal amount at the end? Thanks!

matthew WESSLER - 2 years, 11 months ago
Nick Turtle
Jun 24, 2018

I looked at the problem in reverse so that I only needed to look at one variable. Suppose that x x is the money that each of the three players have at the end.

Look at the third game. Cynthia wins against Anna and doubles her money. That means that, before game 3, Cynthia had x 2 \frac{x}{2} . This also happens to be the amount that Anna loses. So, Anna had 3 x 2 \frac{3x}{2} before game 3. Brenda had x x since she did not participate in this game.

Now, look at game 2. Brenda wins against Cynthia and doubles her money. That means that, before game 2, Brenda had x 2 \frac{x}{2} . This also happens to be the amount that Cynthia loses, putting her money at x 2 + x 2 = x \frac{x}{2}+\frac{x}{2}=x before this game. Anna still has 3 x 2 \frac{3x}{2} .

Finally, look at game 1. Anna wins against Brenda and doubles her money, meaning that Anna had 3 x 4 \frac{3x}{4} before this game. Brenda lost this amount, so she had x 2 + 3 x 4 = 5 x 4 \frac{x}{2}+\frac{3x}{4}=\frac{5x}{4} initially. Cynthia still has x x .

Now, one of them has 50 50 cents initially. If you set each of the initial amounts of money we derived above to 50 50 , you will get that only Brenda's amount makes sense (others give fractional values for x x , which is absurd).

BTW, with this, you can find that all players had x = 40 x=40 cents in the end, Anna had 3 x 4 = 30 \frac{3x}{4}=30 cents initially, Brenda had 5 x 4 = 50 \frac{5x}{4}=50 cents initially, and Cynthia had x = 40 x=40 cents initially.

The idea of looking in reverse is a gem.

wonderful to work in reverse! I wish i think of this sooner

Joseph Giri - 2 years, 11 months ago

I did exactly that and noted because of the fractions you get it get's easier, if you think of the final amount everyone has as 4x. Then it goes like this in reverse:

game 3: c=2x a=6x => c=4x a=4x

game 2: b=2x c=4x => b=4x c=2x

game 1: a=3x b=5x => a=6x b=2x

=> initial situation: a=3x, b=5x c=4x

With that multiples of x, x must be integer and since 50=2x5x5 the factors 3 and 4 disqualify a and c, so b=50, x=10 and a=30, b=50 c=40

Olaf Doschke - 2 years, 11 months ago
Chew-Seong Cheong
Jun 23, 2018

Let Anna, Brenda, and Cynthia start with A ( 0 ) = a A(0)=a , B ( 0 ) = b B(0)=b , and C ( 0 ) = c C(0)=c respectively. Then we have:

Round n A n n a B r e n d a C y n t h i a 0 A ( 0 ) = a B ( 0 ) = b C ( 0 ) = c 1 A ( 1 ) = 2 a B ( 1 ) = b a Anna wins. b > a 2 B ( 2 ) = 2 ( b a ) C ( 1 ) = c b + a Brenda wins. c > b a 2 A ( 2 ) = a + b c C ( 2 ) = 2 ( c b + a ) Cynthia wins. 2 a > c b + a \begin{array} {clllll} \text{Round }n & Anna & Brenda & Cynthia \\ \hline 0 & A(0) = a & B(0) = b & C(0) = c \\ 1 & A(1) = 2a & B(1) = b-a & & \text{Anna wins.} & b > a \\ 2 & & B(2) = 2(b-a) & C(1) = c-b+a & \text{Brenda wins.} & c > b-a \\ 2 & A(2) = a+b-c & & C(2) = 2(c-b+a) & \text{Cynthia wins.} & 2a > c-b+a \end{array}

Then we have

A ( 2 ) = B ( 2 ) = C ( 2 ) a + b c = 2 ( b a ) = 2 ( c b + a ) 2 ( b a ) = 2 ( c b + a ) b a = c ( b a ) c = 2 ( b a ) = B ( 2 ) = A ( 2 ) = C ( 2 ) b a = c 2 . . . ( 1 ) a + b c = c a + b = 2 c . . . ( 2 ) b = 5 4 c . . . ( 1 ) + ( 2 ) a = 2 c b = 3 4 c . . . ( 2 ) \begin{aligned} A(2) & ={\color{#3D99F6}B(2)} = C(2) \\ a+b-c & = {\color{#3D99F6}2(b-a)} = 2(c-b+a) \\ \implies 2(b-a) & = 2(c-b+a) \\ b-a & = c - (b-a) \\ \implies c & ={\color{#3D99F6}2(b-a) = B(2)} = A(2) = C(2) \\ b - a & = \frac c2 & \small \color{#3D99F6} ...(1) \\ a+b-c & = c \\ a+b & = 2c & \small \color{#3D99F6} ...(2) \\ \implies b & = \frac 54 c & \small \color{#3D99F6} ...(1)+(2) \\ \implies a & = 2c - b = \frac 34c & \small \color{#3D99F6} ...(2) \end{aligned}

Therefore a : b : c = 3 4 : 5 4 : 1 = 3 : 5 : 4 = 30 cents : 50 cents : 40 cents a: b : c = \frac 34 : \frac 54 : 1 = 3:5:4 = 30 \text{ cents} : {\color{#3D99F6}50 \text{ cents}} : 40 \text{ cents} . Therefore Brenda \boxed{\text{Brenda}} started with 50 cents.

I did it this way, but didn't even realize the connection you made for c = C(2). That would've saved me some time :)

Alexander Ambrose - 2 years, 11 months ago
Stewart Gordon
Jun 26, 2018

Work backwards. At the end, the three players' balances ( A n n a : B r e n d a : C y n t h i a Anna : Brenda : Cynthia ) are in the ratio 1 : 1 : 1 1:1:1 .

Cynthia wins the final game, thereby winning half of her resulting balance off Anna. So the ratio immediately prior to this is 3 2 : 1 : 1 2 = 3 : 2 : 1 \frac32 : 1 : \frac12 = 3 : 2 : 1 .

Brenda wins the second game, thereby winning half of her resulting balance off Cynthia. So the ratio immediately prior to this is 3 : 1 : 2 3 : 1 : 2 .

Anna wins the first game, thereby winning half of her resulting balance off Brenda. So the ratio immediately prior to this is 3 2 : 5 2 : 2 = 3 : 5 : 4 \frac32 : \frac52 : 2 = 3 : 5 : 4 . This is thus the ratio of funds that they start with.

Since 3 : 5 : 4 3 : 5 : 4 is a ratio in its lowest terms, and since each person starts with an integer number of cents, then their opening balances must be 3 n 3n , 5 n 5n and 4 n 4n respectively for some integer n n . Of these, only 5 n 5n can equal 50, thus n = 10 n = 10 . So the amounts they start with are:

  • Anna - 30 cents
  • Brenda - 50 cents
  • Cynthia - 40 cents
Binky Mh
Jun 25, 2018

Each player has 3 different amounts of money throughout the game, Which I'll write as A 1 , A 2 , A 3 A_{1}, A_{2}, A_{3} for Anna, etc.

The results of the games show us:

A 1 = A 2 ÷ 2 A_{1}=A_{2}\div2

B 1 = B 2 + A 1 B_{1}=B_{2}+A_{1}

C 1 = C 2 + B 2 C_{1}=C_{2}+B_{2}

A 2 = A 3 + C 2 A_{2}=A_{3}+C_{2}

B 2 = B 3 ÷ 2 B_{2}=B_{3}\div2

C 2 = C 3 ÷ 2 C_{2}=C_{3}\div2

Substitution gives us:

A 1 = ( A 3 + ( C 3 ÷ 2 ) ) ÷ 2 A_{1}=(A_{3}+(C_{3}\div2))\div2

B 1 = ( B 3 ÷ 2 ) + ( A 3 + ( C 3 ÷ 2 ) ) ÷ 2 B_{1}=(B_{3}\div2)+(A_{3}+(C_{3}\div2))\div2

C 1 = ( C 3 ÷ 2 ) + ( B 3 ÷ 2 ) C_{1}=(C_{3}\div2)+(B_{3}\div2)

As A 3 = B 3 = C 3 A_{3}=B_{3}=C_{3} , we can replace these with x x , and cancel down the equations:

A 1 = 3 4 x A_{1}=\frac{3}{4}x

B 1 = 5 4 x B_{1}=\frac{5}{4}x

C 1 = x C_{1}=x

Since all these must be integers (as cents are indivisible), only B r e n d a \boxed{Brenda} can start with 50 cents; if A 1 A_{1} or C 1 C_{1} are 50, the other will not be an integer.

Nick Vandermeeren
Jun 28, 2018

If you make a table how the game develops when assuming Anna has the 50c, you get the table as shown below: Where p is the resulting money each players has at the end of the game.

When you put the last collum into a matrix and do the RREF tranfsformation you get non integer solutions. Hence Anna (=A) can't have the 50c in the beginning of the game.

When you make the same table but assume Brenda has the 50c at the start of the game, you get the table as shown below:

After the RREF transformation you'll see that x = 30 thus Anna has 30c at the beginning of the game and y = 40 thus Brenda has 40c.

Playing the game with these numbers gives you the result that all players end the game with 40c.

Manuel Ruiz
Jun 28, 2018

Let's call the three starting amounts a , b , c a,b,c .

Then the game progresses like this: a , b , c 2 a , B , c 2 a , 2 B , C 2 a C , 2 B , 2 C a, b, c \\ 2a, B, c \\ 2a, 2B, C \\ 2a-C, 2B, 2C \\

where B = b a B = b-a and C = c B C = c-B , and with a 0 a \geq 0 and B 0 B \geq 0 and C 0 C \geq 0 and 2 a C 0 2a-C \geq 0 .

On the way we changed coordinates from ( a , b , c ) (a,b,c) to ( a , B , C ) (a,B,C) to eliminate some unnecessary writing.

Since 2 a C = 2 B = 2 C 2a-C = 2B = 2C , we find B = C B=C and 2 a = 3 C 2a=3C . These equations have only the solutions ( a , B , C ) = ( 3 n , 2 n , 2 n ) (a,B,C) = (3n,2n,2n) . Back to original coordinates: ( a , b , c ) = ( a , a + B , B + C ) = ( 3 n , 5 n , 4 n ) (a,b,c) = (a, a+B, B+C) = (3n, 5n, 4n) . This Diophantine equation has entirely integer solutions only for n n integer.

Since 50 is not divisible by 4 nor 3, only b b can be 50 for n n integer. So ( a , b , c ) = ( 30 , 50 , 40 ) (a,b,c) = (30, 50, 40) and the answer is Brenda.

Friedrich Knauss
Jun 27, 2018

I was particularly lazy:

#!/usr/bin/env python

import numpy as np
from functools import reduce

def g(w,l):
    a = np.identity(3)
    a[w][w] += 1   # winner gets amount winner had
    a[l][w] -= 1   # loser loses amount winner had
    return a

m = reduce(np.matmul,[g(2,0),g(1,2),g(0,1)]) # reverse
i = np.linalg.inv(m)
print (np.matmul(i,[[1],[1],[1]]))*40  # 40 was added after inspection.
Ken Haley
Jun 26, 2018

No algebra, just a little arithmetic and logic: Assume they all ended with $1.00 and play the game backwards. Doing so is easy and you find that Anna would have started with $.75, Brenda with $.50 and Cynthia with $1.00. The ratio of these amounts must be the same no matter how much they all start with. So, we scale all three numbers by the same factor to reach $.50 for Anna, and do the same for Brenda, and finally for Cynthia. Only when you scale these numbers (by 2/5) to give Brenda $.50, do the other two players end up with an integer number of cents. In this case, Anna starts with $.30 and Cynthia starts with $.40.

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