Something about this sure is misty!

Algebra Level 5

{ y 2 3 x 2 = π 2 x ( x 2 + y 2 ) = π 2 { x 2 + y 2 + x y = π x y ( x + y ) = π 2 \large \begin{aligned} & \begin{cases} y^{2}-3x^{2}=\pi \\ 2x(x^{2}+y^{2})=\pi^{2}\end{cases} \\ & \begin{cases} x^{2}+y^{2}+xy=-\pi \\ xy(x+y)=\pi^{2} \end{cases} \end{aligned}

Can the two systems of equations in x , y x,y above simultaneously have non-zero, real solutions?

No Impossible to decide Yes

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4 solutions

Brian Moehring
Mar 3, 2017

Just consider the third equation: x 2 + y 2 + x y = π x^2 + y^2 + xy = -\pi

Assuming this has a solution in the real numbers yields x y π = x 2 + y 2 0 x y π x y π = x 2 + 2 x y + y 2 = ( x + y ) 2 0 x y π . \begin{aligned}-xy - \pi = x^2 + y^2 \geq 0 \qquad &\Rightarrow \qquad xy \leq -\pi \\ xy - \pi = x^2 + 2xy + y^2 = (x+y)^2 \geq 0 \qquad &\Rightarrow \qquad xy \geq \pi.\end{aligned}

Therefore π x y π , \pi \leq xy \leq -\pi, which is absurd, so there are no real solutions to that equation, so there are no real solutions to the system.

More directly, (but essentially the same)

π = x 2 + y 2 + x y = ( x + y 2 ) 2 + 3 4 y 2 0. - \pi = x^2 + y^2 + xy = ( x + \frac{y}{2} ) ^2 + \frac{3}{4} y^2 \geq 0.

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 3 months ago

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Right. I knew I had seen a more immediate way to write it!

Brian Moehring - 4 years, 3 months ago
Tom Engelsman
Mar 3, 2017

Let us take the above systems of equations and relate them according to:

x 2 + y 2 + x y = 3 x 2 y 2 = π ; x^2 + y^2 + xy = 3x^2 - y^2 = -\pi;

2 x ( x 2 + y 2 ) = x y ( x + y ) = π 2 2x(x^2 + y^2) = xy(x + y) = \pi^2

Taking the second equation, we can simplify it to:

2 ( x 2 + y 2 ) = x y + y 2 x y = 2 x 2 + y 2 2(x^2 + y^2) = xy + y^2 \Rightarrow xy = 2x^2 + y^2 (i)

and substituting (i) into first equation now yields:

x 2 + y 2 + ( 2 x 2 + y 2 ) = 3 x 2 y 2 3 x 2 + 2 y 2 = 3 x 2 y 2 y = 0 x^2 + y^2 + (2x^2 + y^2) = 3x^2 - y^2 \Rightarrow 3x^2 + 2y^2 = 3x^2 - y^2 \Rightarrow y = 0 .

If y = 0 y = 0 , then we require x = 0 x = 0 in (i) and the required solution is ( x , y ) = ( 0 , 0 ) \boxed{(x,y) = (0, 0)} . But this solution poses a contradiction in our original systems of equations once we substitute back in and check!

@Rohith M.Athreya What do you mean by "simultaneously have solutions"?

Would it be clearer if we simply said "solution to all 4 equations"?

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 3 months ago

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No

It so happens that one of the systems has to always have solutions (but strictly one) I will post a solution soon

Rohith M.Athreya - 4 years, 3 months ago
Rohith M.Athreya
Mar 3, 2017

This might seem a little out of place!!

Note that a cubic polynomial (in one variable and having real co-efficients) can have either 2 non-real roots or zero non-zero real roots.

Since every cubic can by effective transformation be converted to one whose x 2 x^{2} co-efficient is zero,let us find the conditions for the aforementioned two possibilities on a cubic whose sum of roots is zero.

  • 2 Non-Real Roots

since the roots are going to be of the form a + i b , a i b , 2 a a+ib,a-ib,-2a , the cubic is x 3 + x ( b 2 3 a 2 ) + 2 a ( a 2 + b 2 ) = 0 x^{3}+ x(b^{2}-3a^{2})+2a(a^{2}+b^{2})=0

  • 0 Non-Real Roots

since the roots are of the form a , b , ( a + b ) a,b,-(a+b) the cubic is x 3 x ( a 2 + b 2 + a b ) + a b ( a + b ) = 0 x^{3}-x(a^{2}+b^{2}+ab)+ab(a+b)=0

Now,as earlier stated x 3 + π x + π 2 = 0 x^{3}+\pi x+\pi^{2}=0 can have only one of the above possibilities,the systems given in the question cannot simultaneously have solutions

@Calvin Lin

This is what i was thinking

Rohith M.Athreya - 4 years, 3 months ago

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Do you agree that

There are no simultaneous solutions to these 2 systems of equations

is equivalent to

There is no solution to this combined system of equation

That's all that I was going for.

You can see from the above solutions that the interpretation of the question is simply "Does there exist ( x , y ) (x,y) that satisfy all 4 equations?"


Yes, it's nice to notice that "Hey, as it turns out no matter what we replace π \pi and π 2 \pi^2 which, exactly one of these systems has a solution". However, that is not the question that you are asking.

If that is what you're going for, then the proper way to phrase it is to ask

{ y 2 3 x 2 = a 2 x ( x 2 + y 2 ) = b { x 2 + y 2 + x y = a x y ( x + y ) = b \large \begin{aligned} & \begin{cases} y^{2}-3x^{2}=a \\ 2x(x^{2}+y^{2})=b\end{cases} \\ & \begin{cases} x^{2}+y^{2}+xy=-a \\ xy(x+y)=b \end{cases} \end{aligned} Does there exists ( a , b ) (a,b) such that both systems of equations have a non-zero solution?

Do you see the difference?

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 3 months ago

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Yes,I see it The form u showed describes my idea in a clear way and yes, your statement about the 4 equations not having solution is equivalent to mine (technically)

Rohith M.Athreya - 4 years, 3 months ago

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@Rohith M.Athreya Thanks a lot :)

Rohith M.Athreya - 4 years, 3 months ago
Spandan Senapati
Mar 18, 2017

Adding the first and third ( y / x ) 2 + ( y / x ) 2 = 0 (y/x)^2+(y/x)-2=0 .So y / x = 1 , 2 y/x=1,-2 .The required division with x x could be done as x doesn't take the value Zero.Plugging y = x y=x in the 2 n d 2nd and 4 t h 4th yields x 3 = π 2 / 2 x^3=π^2/2 and x 3 = π 2 / 4 x^3=π^2/4 that's definitely absurd.Similarly working the other y = 2 x y=-2x (in 2 n d 2nd and 4 t h 4th ) yields x 3 = π 2 / 10 x^3=π^2/10 and x 3 = π 2 / 2 x^3=π^2/2 that's absurd...So no common solution exists to the system of equations.

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