Astronauts in microgravity aboard the International Space Station can't use a normal scale to weigh themselves. One way they measure their mass is by riding a large compressed spring.
When the spring is released, a computer compares the motion to how the spring moves without the added mass of the person.
What will happen to the motion of the spring when the astronaut gets on the spring?
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Isn't the displacement of the shaking the same as the frequency? Your talking about the same thing from different perspectives.
Both frequency and displacement will change. You can't have one without the other. And your answer to the next question is wrong. I did my degree in pure math. I figured out how to do areas when I was in 1st year. Use a determinant and follow the corners. It's quite easy.
Area can sometimes be zero. Cannot be less than zero unless we use complex. But whatever you draw I will be able to compute the answer. And I am a very good programmer. Like we wrote transact. HP paid like $5 million in 1980.
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Note that the vibration frequency depends on the mass attached to the spring, but the maximum displacement from the equilibrium position depends only on the initial displacement, regardless of the mass.
Thanks Steven!
May you please explain using the gravity of the system
Consider a mass-spring system, similar to the one shown in the graphic. Write Newton's Second Law:
F = m x ¨ − k x = m x ¨ x ¨ = − m k x
Taking two derivatives gives the same function back, but scaled and negated. This means that the solution consists of sine waves (simple harmonic motion).
x = A c o s ( ω t ) + B s i n ( ω t ) x ˙ = − A ω s i n ( ω t ) + B ω c o s ( ω t ) x ¨ = − A ω 2 c o s ( ω t ) − B ω 2 s i n ( ω t ) = − ω 2 x ω = m k
With no astronaut on the spring, the effective mass is the spring's own mass. With the astronaut attached, the effective mass is larger, and the angular frequency is correspondingly smaller (since the mass is in the denominator).
For a bit more fun, let's suppose that at time t = 0 , the initial displacement (position) is D , and that the initial speed is zero. This gives us the following equations to solve for position and velocity:
x 0 = D = A × 1 + B × 0 x ˙ 0 = 0 = − A ω × 0 + B ω × 1 A = D B = 0
This gives the following expression for x:
x = D c o s ( ω t ) ω = m k
Note that the vibration frequency depends on the mass attached to the spring, but the maximum displacement from the equilibrium position depends only on the initial displacement, regardless of the mass.
Does anyone else find the 'visual' of that a bit funny ? :-)
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Reminds me of an old South Park episode :)
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I'm glad to find out that I am not the only one that thinks a bit 'outside the boxes of math & physics'' on that one. :-)
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@Jesse Otis – You're definitely not.
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@Blake Farrow – That's good to know; I have wondered many times if anyone else saw a humorous side to about different things in physics problems & scenarios. :-) On another note, I'm glad that you replied because it gives me a chance to ask you about the wording in your problem. You state in the first paragraph that the astronaut rides "...a large compressed spring." and in the following paragraph "When the spring is released...". Is the spring compressed the entire time ? It seems that it wouldn't be, that it would be either extended past its equilibrium point or to that point. Also, what 'releases' the spring ? Part of the apparatus ? And is the spring released from a compressed state ?
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@Jesse Otis – Maybe I should have said that the astronaut "mounts" a large compressed spring. I'll think about some more appropriate wording that makes this clear.
The spring begins in its compressed state, with potential energy stored in the spring. Once released (by the mechanism of this device), that potential energy is used to accelerate the astronaut past the equilibrium length of the spring when their velocity is maximized. After this point the astronaut begins to decelerate until they are at a stop momentarily and all the kinetic energy is turned back into potential energy in the stretched spring. Then a similar return journey happens with the astronaut accelerating and then decelerating on the way back to their starting position.
No matter the combined mass of the spring + astronaut, at the equilibrium point all of the potential energy stored in the compressed spring will be converted to kinetic energy. Also no matter the mass, the symmetry of this energy transformation means that the displacement from the springs equilibrium length will remain the same, only dependent on the initial conditions. But depending on the inertia (mass) of the astronaut, this kinetic energy will correspond to a different velocity (recall E k = 1 / 2 m v 2 ). The higher the combined mass of the spring + astronaut, the lower the velocity of this motion, and the lower the frequency.
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@Blake Farrow – Clear now; thanks. I looked at a couple of YouTube videos and saw that the Russians have their own version of the apparatus in your diagram - one that has a vertical motion instead of horizontal. I had to keep reminding myself that there is no force of gravity pulling them downward on that thing - just as there is no gravitational force pulling the American astronauts off the horizontal device. On another note, is there a way that we, the posting public, can get in touch with you staff people other than waiting for an opportunistic reply from you to take place ? Sometimes I have questions for you all - such as the ones that I just asked you - but don't know how to contact you.
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@Jesse Otis – The short answer to your question is to just use the "@" mentioning if you want to bring in someone from the staff team (ie. @Blake Farrow ). We try to keep up with our notifications, though sometimes we get pretty inundated with notifications and problem reports/clarifications in the premium courses.
To address the demand for these kind of user questions, especially for those who are working through the courses that we write, we've added the Brilliant Pro service. You can check it out here . This service makes any relevant staff member (usually the one who wrote the course or problem in question) available for questions, clarifications, and help developing learning skills and personalized education plans.
BTW: I actually wrote this question about the Russian device, and rotated it 90 degrees to invoke exactly the mental reminder that you mention. The American device is a bit different, though it's also based on a known force caused by a compressed spring.
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@Blake Farrow – Thanks much for that info. You guys at Brilliant rule ! :-) I really wish that I had the money to become a premium member and take the great courses that y'all offer. I take courses from Coursera - and just do the free version of them (not the certificate which costs about $50 per course). I have very little money and must spend what I have on the absolutely necessary things - like food. Thanks again, Blake, for replying and all the info.
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@Jesse Otis – Keep an eye out for coupons on https://brilliant.org/premium/, we often have promotions that make the subscription a bit more affordable. Glad you're enjoying Brilliant 😀.
I don't entirely agree, but because this question needs more details. That's the resonance frequency, but the frequency the machine runs at won't be affected. The machine will run at the same speed and the displacement will increase or decrease depending on whether the machine's forced frequency is approaching the resonance frequency or not.
I'm obviously overthinking it, but could "resonance" be added to save other's the same confusion, or some rough values of the machine's mass and frequency?
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It doesn't sound like we're thinking of the same piece of apparatus. I assumed the device was just a simple mass/spring system, with the astronaut contributing most of the mass. You seem to be saying that there is some other forcing going on.
If the astronaut sits on it, nothing happens because they are floating relative to the spring. For the system to measure the mass the other end of the spring must be driven.
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The question states that the astronaut gets on the compressed spring, implying that initially, some potential energy is stored in the spring. The dynamics that we're concerned about here are after the spring is released and allowed to oscillate.
It appears to be a question in APhO ,quantitative calculation may be clearer
The frequency of oscillation of a mass-spring system is inversely proportional to the active compressional mass (in this case). Thus the frequency decreases with increased mass.
Fine, and i had a similar reasoning, but i couldn't explain another thing: why doesn't the displacement increase?
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Displacement is a function of initial conditions, and is thus arbitrary. The vibration frequency is determined by the core physics.
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I was about to reply, but you nailed it. Thanks Steven.
Steven, that tells me absolutely nothing... :-(
First of all, isn't mass part of those "initial conditions"? And i'm not sure "arbitrary" is appropriate there... did you mean "constant"?
And finally, WTH is that "the core physics" that determines the frequency? (Even though i wasn't asking about frequency...)
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@C . – The displacement can be anything, depending on the initial stretch of the spring. That has nothing to do with the mass. If you start with identical initial displacement in two trials with masses m 1 and m 2 , the extremes (max displacements) of the sinusoidal motions will be the same, but the frequencies will differ. By "core physics", I'm referring to the governing differential equation for the system.
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@Steven Chase – Thanks for clarifying. Stating these things is fine and well, i find it great that they're spelled out, but is there any justification for it? (Well, i'm sure there is, but i don't find that Ekene or you ever explained anything... you just made claims, which isn't really helpful as a solution.)
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@C . – I have made my solution above more detailed. See what you think
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@Steven Chase – oh... heh, didn't notice you also have a solution above. :"> Was only saying that Ekene's, and your reply in this thread, are just text. The info at the top is pretty much what i was asking for. :-bd
Is it itbecouse in order to feel the mass, you need and the gravity? If speak stupid... Sorry
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You are not saying anything stupid. I just don't understand what you're saying.
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I think they're trying to ask whether in order for extra mass to have a further effect (like increasing the displacement), there would be a need for non-negligible gravity to give "weight" to that mass.
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@C . – Of course not! Mass is the inertial measure of a body; its resistance to acceleration. Gravity does not cause mass to exist.
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@Ekene Franklin – Ekene, i didn't say it would cause MASS to exist, i said it would cause mass to have an effect (like changing the displacement), via its weight value. Because mass by itself doesn't carry any weight in 0g.
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@C . – The factor which compresses the spring is the weight of the body. A force is required to compress, and that force is weight. Mass is not a force, so it is not what pulls the astronaut towards the ground, compressing it in the process.
What is misleading is the fact that in the presence of gravity like on the surfce of the earth the added mass of the astronaut would create an additional vertical force (weight) that would compress the spring some more thus a larger displacement. But if there is no gravity, the initial displacement is not caused by the mass (weight = 0) but by an external force, in this case a muscular force against the apparatus.
There is no need for gravity to be present to 'feel' mass. Mass is a property of an object and is a measure of the object's resistance to acceleration; that has nothing to do with its weight (which is a result of gravity acting on an object).
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To say "it has nothing to do with its weight" is a bit of a stretch, since the weight is, as you say, the result of gravity acting ON SAID MASS... And in the absence of some other force through which to "experience" the resistance to acceleartion of that mass, weight is the next best thing, imo.
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@C . – You are right; that part of my statement is not really rock solid. Maybe I should not have included that part. Thanks for pointing it out. I think that I was still chuckling at the 'visual' of seeing that test in progress. :-)
Can someone explain how are we commenting on the displacement of the spring??
I'd say the displacement of the spring is more likely to be the answer, although I may be wrong.
I guess, The acceleration is zero and the velocity is maximum at mean position. While the acceleration is maximum and velocity is zero in the extreme position (here the compressed condition of spring when the astronaut is sitting on the spring). So this concept might be used here to find mass of astronaut using some mathematical calculation.
In the linear regime of the spring, there are solutions for all possible displacements. If the astronaut gets onto the spring without any momentum of his own, while the spring is in one of its extreme positions (fully stretched or compressed) the displacement will remain unchanged. If he does contribute momentum or gets on somewhere in the middle, the displacement can either decrease or increase.
As such, it is impossible to give a definitive answer (such as the third and fourth of the multiple choice answers), as this really depends on the way the astronaut gets onto the spring. The thing that does clearly change identically in all cases is the frequency of the oscillation, which will decrease with higher mass, hence why this is the accepted answer.
Regarding displacement: The problem said "When the spring is release . . ." This means it starts at a predetermined compressed state. This is like pulling a pendulum back to a certain/specific angle before releasing it. A low mass (as with the spring by itself) would have greater acceleration but less mass and it would reach its "apex" quickly before retracting. More mass would have slower acceleration but the mass would allow it to reach the same apex (displacement), only slower. But the problem is: I don't feel I'm qualified to talk about this--just having fun interacting with people smarter than I am.
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Dave -- you mentioned "...just having fun interacting with people smarter than I am." That is my story also. I get most of these problems wrong - and of the ones I get right I guess on a fair number of them. It is indeed 'neat' to be involved in these posts with people that are far more knowledgeable about math & physics than I am - and no doubt smarter. :-)
In my words...when I grasp any moving object it stops moving
Abdul -- It probably would be prudent to qualify that statement by indicating that you must grasp it with enough 'stopping force' to stop it. If you grasp, say, the fin of a whale swimming along the whale will most likely continue to move. Humor in physics is one of my specialties. :-)
The only existing force is the tension of the spring. Using N e w t o n ′ s s e c o n d l a w we have a → = m T → ⟹ a = m k ∗ x Since T → is constant and k also then x the displacement is constant. And as the mass of the system has increased then it's accelaration will decrease and the vilocity also, then the frequence will decrease.
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I can try to explain this is simplest terms without a single formula.
As the mass increases, with it increases the inertia (of motion) of the spring-mass system, thus making it harder to accelerate ( or decelerate) , thus increasing the time-period of each cycle, causing the frequency to decrease.