T-Run-CTVT

Logic Level 2

In a race run by A and B, runner A beats B by 10 meters. When runners B and C run the same lap, B beats C by 20 meters.

What happens when runners A and C run the lap?

Note: Assume each runner's speed is constant.

A beats C by less than 30 meters A beats C by exactly 30 meters A beats C by more than 30 meters There is not enough information

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19 solutions

Zico Quintina
May 2, 2018

This solution assumes that runner A is consistently running faster than runner B, who is consistently running faster than runner C, at the very least during the final portions of the race; if that is not the case then the correct answer should be that there is insufficient information to answer the question.

Given the above assumption, we can say that towards the end of the race, the gap between A and B is steadily increasing, as is the gap between B and C. By the time B reaches the finish line, the gap between B and C is 20m; however this means that when A reaches the finish line, 10m ahead of B, the gap between B and C has not yet become 20m, and therefore A will beat C by less than 30m.

I agree with all that you said, and you said it very well. I also thought that the answer should actually be insufficient information. But I guessed that was not likely the answer sought.

Steven Perkins - 3 years, 1 month ago

Pretty short reasoning to get < 30 meters.

Michael Mendrin - 3 years, 1 month ago

Great answer. I had to go algebra because I was having trouble reasoning this out.

It looks like the constant speed note was added after this solution was written.

Jeremy Galvagni - 3 years ago

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Damn - didn't see that note

Shaun Morrison - 3 years ago

Actually kind of brilliant how you figured this! Kudos!

Basically, you are saying that we can simplify the problem to think of this as a single race run concurrently--i.e. all three runners run one lap at the same time. Given we are told their velocities are constant, the distance between any two runners must be monotonic (strongly so, given we know there is a difference between them after the starting point).

From this we can thus infer the greatest distance would be at the termination of the race, with the distance between Runner A and Runner B being exactly 10 m, and the distance between Runner B and Runner C being less than 20 m (given the distance at the finish would be greater than their previous differential).

I guess the question now becomes what underlying assumptions allow the model to logically simplified in such a way, and under what conditions would such a simplification not hold so easily?

Joshua Nesseth - 3 years ago

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Thanks! Actually, when I wrote this solution the question was a bit different; the runners were all running in a single race, and the note about constant speeds had not yet been added.

zico quintina - 3 years ago

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Haha! Well, then brilliant step decoupling the races--both for complexity in the problem and for what it reveals about analytic process!

Joshua Nesseth - 2 years, 8 months ago

After running agaisnt B, C would be tired, and wouldn't as fast. Since A got a break, A is fine. So, A beats C by more than 30 meters!!

Martin Moreno - 3 years ago

As the speed of each runner is constant I thought it would be more than 30 metres because of the width of runner B

Gamer Hammer - 3 years ago

Thaaaaaat makes so much more sense.

Kai Hyodo - 3 years ago

Why should the solution be based on assumptions? This question is flawed as it doesn't account for acceleration and does not otherwise state to ignore acceleration.

Mario Martinez - 3 years ago

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thought the same, most runners accelerate at the end (and beginning)

Jan Spittel - 3 years ago

it's just for the sake of simplicity

Laura Gao - 3 years ago

All of you even the one who created this example made a a mistake.

All of you calculated with B`s position 10 m behind the finish line therefore all of you are ....

Let me show you why it is more than 30 m s = 100 m va = 10 m/s to finish ta = 10 s vb = 9 m/s to finish tb = 11.1111 s vc = 6.3 m/s

Player A will finish in 10 sec when Player C will be at 6.3 m

I solved the problem even if all of u could not.

I suggest anybody who comes next be careful.

Domonkos Csáki - 3 years ago

This is what I did: 20 10 C-----------------------------------------------B-------------------------------------------------A

20+10=30

I don't really understand though why my answer is wrong though. I would rate this problem a 5 because I don't really get it.

Lucia Tiberio - 3 years ago

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The thing to consider is the distance between B and C is not always 20 meters. When B reaches the finish line, C is 20 meters behind B which means that B is running at a faster speed. Because their speeds are different, The distance between B and C is a bit less than 20 meters by the time A gets to the finish line. So the answer is 10+a bit less than 20.

Nicholas Patrick - 3 years ago

Yep that was exactly my thought process. Nice!

bhaskar mishra - 3 years ago

love the non- algebraic intuitive answer

Laura Gao - 3 years ago

Great explanation. Very easy to understand, thanks :D

Cata Muller - 3 years ago

It's raisonnable but not sure

Claudia Manotti - 2 years, 9 months ago

This should be under "Intermediate" instead.

Dennis Rodman - 2 years, 8 months ago
David Vreken
May 13, 2018

Let x x be the distance of the lap, and t 1 t_1 the time of the first race, where A A is against B B . Since B B 's distance is 10 10 m less than the lap, B B 's speed is x 10 t 1 \frac{x - 10}{t_1} .

In the second race, where B B is against C C , B B finishes the race at the same speed as before, and so the time t 2 = x t 1 x 10 t_2 = \frac{xt_1}{x - 10} . Since C's distance is 20 20 m less than the lap, C C 's speed is ( x 20 ) ( x 10 ) x t 1 \frac{(x - 20)(x - 10)}{xt_1} .

In the third race, where A A is against C C , A A will finish in the same time as before, so the time is t 1 t_1 . C C 's distance would then be ( x 20 ) ( x 10 ) x t 1 t 1 = ( x 20 ) ( x 10 ) x \frac{(x - 20)(x - 10)}{xt_1} \cdot t_1 = \frac{(x - 20)(x - 10)}{x} . C C 's distance behind A A would be x ( x 20 ) ( x 10 ) x = 30 200 x x - \frac{(x - 20)(x - 10)}{x} = 30 - \frac{200}{x} , which is necessarily less than 30 30 m for all positive values of x x (and a positive value for all values of x x greater than 20 3 \frac{20}{3} , which x x must be since B B beats C C by 20 20 m).

What about any x smaller than 20/3? Wouldn't it mean that C beats A? I guess you could fix it by saying that x is greater than 20, since there's a difference of 20 m in the third race :)

Crisanto Salazar - 3 years ago

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X is distance of lap. 20/3 ~ 6.67.

But A betas B by 10 meters. Its an incident happened, so lap distance can not be less than 10. As per your question, the statement should have been “for all positive values of X greater than 10”.

Kishore Guruswamy - 3 years ago

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Thanks, I edited my solution.

David Vreken - 3 years ago

Even though this is the correct solution, but it didn't give an intuition for why the answer comes. Zico Quintina's solution is more intuitive.

Vaibhav Priyadarshi - 3 years ago

How did we get 30 - 200/x?

Fetandrey Greenlight - 3 years ago

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x ( x 20 ) ( x 10 ) x x - \frac{(x - 20)(x - 10)}{x}

= x x 2 30 x + 200 x = x - \frac{x^2 - 30x + 200}{x}

= x ( x 2 x 30 x x + 200 x ) = x - (\frac{x^2}{x} - \frac{30x}{x} + \frac{200}{x})

= x ( x 30 + 200 x ) = x - (x - 30 + \frac{200}{x})

= x x + 30 200 x = x - x + 30 - \frac{200}{x}

= 30 200 x = 30 - \frac{200}{x}

David Vreken - 3 years ago

Great Solution Sir.

SRIJAN Singh - 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Michael Mendrin
May 13, 2018

Relevant wiki: Speed, Distance, and Time

Let v a , v b , v c v_a, v_b, v_c be the velocities of runners a , b , c a, b, c , and let L L be the length of track lap, and x x the unknown distance. Then we have the following equations

v b L v a = L 10 v_b \dfrac{L}{v_a} = L-10

v c L v b = L 20 v_c \dfrac{L}{v_b} = L-20

v c L v a = L x v_c \dfrac{L}{v_a} = L-x

That's 3 3 equations for 4 4 unknowns, so we're not going to have an unique x x . However, multiplying togther the first two equations and comparing with the 3rd, we have

v c L v a L = ( L 10 ) ( L 20 ) = ( L x ) L v_c \dfrac{L}{v_a}L = (L-10)(L-20)=(L-x)L

After some algebraic ado, we end up with

x = 30 L 200 L x=\dfrac{30L-200}{L}

which means x < 30 x <30 for any finite L L

So, are you implying the amount of distance covered by runner B in the race against runner C is equivalent to the amount of distance traveled by B in the first lap?

Joshua Nesseth - 3 years ago

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Let's say that all A, B, C ran a race. When A reaches the end, the distance between A and B is 10 meters. The distance between B and C is less than 20 meters. When B reaches the end, the distance between B and C becomes exactly 20 meters. If everybody ran exactly the same in every race, then the distances between them will still be the same between any pair of them.

Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

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Okay. Thank you for the clarification!

What was suspicious for me (even in the second explanation) was/is the implicit conversion of Cumulative Distance into Total Distance.

Your solution to that is actually quite impressive--I just wish you had made it more explicit, if only for its brilliance. From what I gather, you avoid the matter completely by shifting the given distance /( L /) into the proportion of that distance covered between two different runners /( v_i /). Your means of doing this yields the same results, but seems to be quite different from David Vreken's.

Perhaps you could expound upon the internal workings? I don't doubt it's validity--I'm just more interested in the logical process that gets there...if you wouldn't mind, of course!

Joshua Nesseth - 3 years ago

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@Joshua Nesseth Let's look at the first equation

v b L v a = L 10 v_b \dfrac{L}{v_a} = L-10

Given a lap length of L L meters, the time it took in seconds for A A to reach the finish is L v a \dfrac{L}{v_a} , if her constant speed is v a v_a meters per second. In this time, the distance travelled by B B is v b L v a v_b \dfrac{L}{v_a} .

The distance B B has yet to go when A A finished is 10 10 meters, so that means B B travelled a distance of L 10 L-10 meters. That explains the first equation.

We do the same for the other two pairs of runners. Then we solve the 3 equations for the 4 unknowns v a , v b , v c , x v_a, v_b, v_c, x , and find the value of x x in terms of L L .

Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

All of you even the one who created this example made a a mistake.

All of you calculated with B`s position 10 m behind the finish line therefore all of you are ....

Let me show you why it is more than 30 m s = 100 m va = 10 m/s to finish ta = 10 s vb = 9 m/s to finish tb = 11.1111 s vc = 6.3 m/s

Player A will finish in 10 sec when Player C will be at 6.3 m

I solved the problem even if all of u could not.

I suggest anybody who comes next be careful.

Domonkos Csáki - 3 years ago

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Suppose the length of track is 100 m and the speed of A is 10 m/'s. Then A finishes after 10 seconds. By then , B is at 90 m. So, B runs at 9 m/s and will finish after 100/9 seconds. When B finishes, C will be at 80 m. His speed is 80/(100/9)=72/100 m/s. So, when A finishes after 10 seconds, C will have covered 72 meters. So C is 28 m behind A. Which is less than 30. 🤔

C Fortgens - 3 years ago

What gave you the intuition to multiply the first two equations together?

Is there a system for isolating variables for systems where unknowns > equations?

frank lin - 3 years ago

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Multiplying the first 2 equations together knocks out the unknown v b v_b , leaving only v a , v c v_a, v_c to deal with. Then we can compare this with the 3rd equation.

Michael Mendrin - 3 years ago

The information given simply states that a was 10 m ahead of b at finish and b was 20 m ahead of c. This being the given information, and not at which point a out ran b, the answer would be either unknown or exactly 30. For all we know a' s start gave it the lead. The same could be said for b.

Gabriel Armshaw - 3 years ago
Ti Co
May 14, 2018

In a race with all the runners, when A reaches the finish line, B has yet to achieve the distance of 20 meters to C, because he's still 10m away from the finishing line, therefore if the distance between B and C is less than 20m, the distance between A and C is less then 30m.

Let V A , V B , V C V_A, V_B, V_C be the speeds of runners A, B & C respectively, D D be the length of track lap & x x be the distance by which A beats C then

Race between the runners A & B, \frac{D}{V_A}=\frac{D-10}{V_B}\tag1

Race between the runners B & C, \frac{D}{V_B}=\frac{D-20}{V_C}\tag2

Race between the runners A & C, \frac{D}{V_A}=\frac{D-x}{V_C}\tag3

Equating (1) & (3), we get \frac{D-10}{V_B}=\frac{D-x}{V_C}\tag4

Now, subtracting (4) from (2), we get 10 V B = x 20 V C \color{#D61F06}{\frac{10}{V_B}=\frac{x-20}{V_C}}

But runner B beats C that means V B > V C 10 > x 20 V_B>V_C \implies \color{#D61F06}{10}>\color{#D61F06}{x-20} x < 30 \implies x<30

hence runner A beats C by a distance x < 30 m x<30 \ m

Imagine that B was also running in the last run. When the runner A crosses the finish line, B is behind him 10 meters. We know that when B finishes his race, C will be 20 meters behind B. But A finishes the race earlier than B and so, there is not enough time to B build his 20 meters advantage over C. So, the gap between A and C must be 10 meters plus a number inferior to 20 meters, i. e., the answer is less than 30 meters.

This relies on the fact that speeds are constant and the gap between the same runners is proportional to the time since the race started.

Eduardo Escamilla
May 16, 2018

Suppose they run on a 100m run. When A hits the 100m mark B will be at 90m. When B hits 100m, C will be at 80m. This problem can be solved as a simple problem involving proportions i.e. A:B = 100:90 and B:C = 100:80 so A:C= 100/90 * 100/80 = 100:72. In other words when A is on the 100m mark C is on the 72m mark, or 28m behind.

Ravikiran Rao
May 15, 2018

Since, in the question there is no information about how many metres race it is, let me assume it as 100 metres (you'll come to know why 100; it makes our job easier). We know that S p e e d Speed = d i s t a n c e T i m e t a k e n \frac{distance}{Time taken} . And since speeds are constant, we get a b \frac{a}{b} = 100 90 \frac{100}{90} and b c \frac{b}{c} = 100 80 \frac{100}{80} where a a , b b and c c are the speeds of A, B and C, respectively. Multiplying both, we get a c \frac{a}{c} = 100 72 \frac{100}{72} . This means that the runners A and C will be 28 metres apart if they run the lap together. Hence, the option 1.

Adam Carroll
May 19, 2018

Assume runner A runs 100m in 10s => 10m/s. Therefore, runner B runs 100m - 10m = 90m in 10s => 9m/s

Runner B then runs 100m while going at 9m/s => 100 m 9 m / s \frac{100m}{9m/s} = 11.11s

Therefore runner C runs 100m - 20m = 80m in 11.11s => 80 m 11.11 m / s \frac{80m}{11.11m/s} = 7.2m/s

So, since runner A runs 100m in 10s, runner C will run x x meters in 10s at 7.2m/s => x x = 7.2m/s * 10s = 72m, which is less than 30m from runner A.

Johannes H
Oct 24, 2018

Assume A is running 100 meters "100% fast". So B is only 90% fast, but still C is 20% slower than B. So C runs 80% of 90% = 72% fast. So he is only 28% slower than A. You can easily see that the inequality holds true for different runway lengths, because it comes from the product of relative speeds.

Haoran Wang
May 19, 2018

Assume B run together. Distance of B and C is increasing over time. We know when B finished, B beats C 20m. But when A finished race, B isn't approach finish line. So distance between C and B k k less than 20m. 10 + k < 30 10+k<30 .So answer is A.

Here is a solution without math, Consider A,B and C running together, sure A will win the race and when he just completes the race, B will be 10 meter behind A as given. C will be behind B and since B has greater velocity than C the distance between them is increasing with time. When B finishes the race C will be 20 meters behind B as given but at any instant before this, distance between them is less than 20(because distance between them is increasing). So 10 and something less than 20 gives something less than 30.

Dushan Madhuka
May 17, 2018

A beats C by exactly 28 meters.

  • Imagine total distance from start to end is 100 meters.
  • In the 1st race, A finish race in 1 second - A's velocity is 100 meters per second; B's velocity is 90meters per second.
  • In the 2nd race, B runs 100 meters in 100/90 seconds.C runs 80 meters in 100/90 seconds. Therefore, C's velocity is (80*90)/100 =72 meters per second
  • In the 3rd race, A finish race in 1 second and B runs 72 meters in 1 second.
Vishal Shekhar
May 16, 2018

It take the length of the entire Lap( at constant speeds) for the gap of 10 m to develop between A & B and similarly for B&C( gap of 20 m). Now, Imagine all three run at the same time. When A finishes, B will be 10 m behind. C will be behind B but with a distance < 20 m.

Jam M
May 15, 2018

d = d = race distance

v A , v B , v C = v_A, v_B, v_C = speeds of A, B, and C respectively

t A , t B , t C = t_A, t_B, t_C = respective times it takes A, B, and C to finish the race

t B = t A + 10 v B t_B = t_A + \dfrac{10}{v_B}

t C = t B + 20 v C = t A + 10 v B + 20 v C < t A + 10 v C + 20 v C = t A + 30 v C t_C = t_B + \dfrac{20}{v_C} = t_A + \dfrac{10}{v_B} + \dfrac{20}{v_C} < t_A + \dfrac{10}{v_C} + \dfrac{20}{v_C} = t_A + \dfrac{30}{v_C}

Since 30 v C \dfrac{30}{v_C} is the time it takes C to run 30 30 m, A beats C by less than 30 30 m.

Ian Leslie
May 15, 2018

Assume all speeds are uniform from start to finish. Let t A t_A be time for runner A to finish and t B t_B for runner B to finish. Then, using V for speeds, t A ( V A V B ) = 10 t_A(V_A-V_B) = 10 and t B ( V B V C ) = 20 t_B(V_B-V_C) = 20 . Do a little algebra to get t A ( V A V C ) = 10 + ( t A t B t_A(V_A-V_C) = 10 + (\frac{t_A}{t_B} ) 20. t A t B \frac{t_A}{t_B} < 1, so less than 30.

Lovro Cupic
May 14, 2018

Imagine C running behind B running behind A. When A reaches the finish and the distance between A and B is 10 m, the distance between B and C is less than 20 m. That's because B is faster than C and he has to keep running to reach the finish to increase his lead over B for the full 20 m.

Edwin Gray
May 14, 2018

We need to assume that the runners move at a constant rate, so that B = ,9A and C = .8B. Then C = .72A. For convenience, assume the track is 100 m. When A is at the finish line, C is at 72, or 28 m. behind. Ed Gray

Well put. In a 100 m race, B's speed is 90% of A's speed. C's speed is 80% of B's speed, which is (.9 x .8) = 72% of A's speed. For there to be a 30 meter gap between A and C, C's speed would need to be 70% of A's speed, but in fact it's faster than that, so the gap will be smaller than 30 m.

Bob Liddington - 3 years ago
Zain Majumder
May 13, 2018

Imagine that in the third race, all three runners are visible. From diagram 1, we know that runner B would be 10 m behind runner A. However, we cannot assume that runner C would be 20 m behind runner B. Because C is slower than B, the gap between the runners is increasing the whole time. If B is 20 m ahead at the finish line, B is less than 20 m ahead before the finish line. Therefore, in the third race, the distance between B and C is less than 20 m. Runner A would be less than 30 m ahead of runner C.

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