The Answer is Not 3 2 \frac{ 3}{ \sqrt{2} }

Algebra Level 5

Over all positive triples of real numbers, what is the largest value of k k (to 2 decimal places) such that

a b + c + b c + a + c a + b k ? \sqrt{ \frac{a} { b+c} } + \sqrt{ \frac{b}{ c + a }} + \sqrt{ \frac{ c}{a+b} } \geq k ?


The answer is 2.00.

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7 solutions

Stephen Tosh
Nov 5, 2014

In this solution, we will find an expression that has the same range as the expression given in the question, and use this new form to clearly show the minimum value the expression can take.

Define the function f f with domain { ( a , b , c ) a , b , c > 0 , a , b , c R } \{(a,b,c)\mid a,b,c \gt 0, a,b,c \in \mathbb{R}\} as the left hand side of the given inequality. f ( a , b , c ) = a b + c + b c + a + c a + b f(a,b,c) = \sqrt{\frac{a}{b+c}} + \sqrt{\frac{b}{c+a}} + \sqrt{\frac{c}{a+b}} Define the function g g with domain { ( x , y ) x , y > 0 , x , y R } \{(x,y)\mid x,y\gt 0, x,y\in \mathbb{R}\} as follows. g ( x , y ) = x x y + 1 + x y x + 1 + 1 x + x y g(x,y) = \sqrt{\frac{x}{xy+1}} + \sqrt{\frac{xy}{x+1}} + \sqrt{\frac{1}{x+xy}} For any point ( a , b , c ) (a,b,c) in the domain of f f , f ( a , b , c ) = g ( a c , b a ) f(a,b,c) = g\left(\frac{a}{c},\frac{b}{a}\right) For any point ( x , y ) (x,y) in the domain of g g , g ( x , y ) = f ( x , x y , 1 ) g(x,y) = f(x,xy,1) Therefore, the range of f f is equal to the range of g g .

Now note that for any x 0 < x 1 x_0\lt x_1 , we have x 0 x 0 y + 1 > x 1 x 1 y + 1 \frac{x_0}{x_0y+1}\gt\frac{x_1}{x_1y+1} , x 0 y x 0 + 1 > x 1 y x 1 + 1 \frac{x_0y}{x_0+1}\gt\frac{x_1y}{x_1+1} , and 1 x 0 + x 0 y > 1 x 1 + x 1 y \frac{1}{x_0+x_0y}\gt\frac{1}{x_1+x_1y} . Thus, g ( x 0 , y ) > g ( x 1 , y ) g(x_0,y)\gt g(x_1,y) Therefore, for any x 0 x_0 , g ( x 0 , y ) > lim x ( g ( x , y ) ) = 1 y + y 1 + 0 \begin{aligned} g(x_0,y) & \gt \lim_{x\to\infty}(g(x,y))\\ & = \sqrt{\frac{1}{y}} + \sqrt{\frac{y}{1}} + \sqrt{0} \end{aligned} Note that by the definition of a limit, we can get as close to y + 1 y \sqrt{y} + \sqrt{\frac{1}{y}} as desired.

It remains to find the minimum of h ( y ) = y + 1 y h(y) = \sqrt{y} + \sqrt{\frac{1}{y}} with domain y > 0 y\gt0 . 0 = h ( y ) = y 1 / 2 2 y 3 / 2 2 y = 1 \begin{aligned} 0 & = h'(y) \\ & = \frac{y^{-1/2}}{2} - \frac{y^{-3/2}}{2} \\ y & = 1 \end{aligned} With a little bit of investigation, it is easy to see that the critical point at y = 1 y=1 is a global minimum for the domain of h h .

Therefore, f ( a , b , c ) > 1 + 1 = 2 f(a,b,c) \gt \sqrt{1} + \sqrt{1} = 2 .

It is interesting to note that this is strictly greater than. The question asked for greater than or equal to, but as discussed, the nature of the limit still has 2 as the greatest lower bound, even though 2 is not actually in the range.

This will approach to 2 when any two of a , b , c a,b,c tend to \infty .

Sandeep Bhardwaj - 6 years, 7 months ago

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That is not entirely accurate. It tends to 2 whenever any two of a , b , c a,b,c tend to infinity at the same rate. If however, you set a = x a=x and b = 4 x b=4x for example, it tends to 2.5 as x x tends to infinity.

Stephen Tosh - 6 years, 7 months ago

Nice! However, isn't this solution technically not algebraic because you applied limits?

Isaac Thomas - 6 years, 6 months ago

how would you solve this without limits?

Isaac Thomas - 6 years, 6 months ago

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See Bogan's solution below.

For a similar problem, try Innate Inequality Part II

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 5 months ago
Bogdan Simeonov
Nov 5, 2014

Since the LHS is homogenous, we can let a + b + c = 1 a+b+c=1 .But note that a 1 a 2 a \sqrt{\frac{a}{1-a}}\geq 2a , with equality exactly when a=1/2 or 0.So F ( a , b , c ) = a 1 a + b 1 b + c 1 c 2. a + 2. b + 2. c = 2 F(a,b,c)=\sqrt{\frac{a}{1-a}}+\sqrt{\frac{b}{1-b}}+\sqrt{\frac{c}{1-c}}\geq 2.a+2.b+2.c=2 , with equality when two if them are each a half and the other is zero.But since a,b,c>0, the inequality is strong, meaning that we can get as close as we want to 2, but never reach it.

Is this a valid solution? @Calvin Lin

Bogdan Simeonov - 6 years, 7 months ago

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I was trying to hint at a solution along those lines, but in a much simpler/direct way.

Rewrite my hint as " a 1 a 2 a \sqrt{ \frac { a } { 1- a } } \geq 2a ". Apply this directly.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 7 months ago

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Oh, that is a much better observation.Would you mind if I correct it in my solution?

Bogdan Simeonov - 6 years, 7 months ago

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@Bogdan Simeonov It would be great if you can present this solution (and fill in all the necessary details) :)

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 7 months ago

assume a=1000000 and b=0(almost) and c=1 then K value tends to be more than 200(k=1000) right ? so how can the answer be 200

Deepan Iim A - 6 years, 6 months ago
Nathan Ramesh
Nov 15, 2014

a b + c = a a ( b + c ) AM-GM 2 a a + ( b + c ) = 2 \displaystyle \sum \sqrt{\dfrac{a}{b+c}}=\displaystyle \sum \dfrac{a}{\sqrt{a(b+c)}}\stackrel{\text{AM-GM}}{\geq} \displaystyle \sum \dfrac{2a}{a+(b+c)}=2

Equality cases are when two variables are the same and one is zero (or, since the question requieres positivity, approaches zero)

Nice application of AM-GM.

How did you arrive at the conclusion about the equality cases? Note that equality cannot hold in your equation, because we will need a = b + c , b = c + a , c = a + b a = b+c, b = c+a, c = a+b .

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 6 months ago

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Right, when a , b , c a, b, c are positive the equality cannot hold. Hence we set one of them to be 0 0 and then solve. @Calvin Lin

Nathan Ramesh - 6 years, 6 months ago
Ariel Gershon
Nov 10, 2014

First observe that if 0 < x < n 0 < x < n , then x n x 2 n x \sqrt{\frac{x}{n-x}} \ge \frac{2}{n} x . The proof of this is simple algebra - this equation is equivalent to x ( 2 x n ) 2 0 x(2x-n)^2 \ge 0 .

Let n = a + b + c n = a+b+c . Then, a b + c + b c + a + c a + b = a n a + b n b + c n c \sqrt{\frac{a}{b+c}} + \sqrt{\frac{b}{c+a}} + \sqrt{\frac{c}{a+b}} = \sqrt{\frac{a}{n-a}} + \sqrt{\frac{b}{n-b}} + \sqrt{\frac{c}{n-c}} 2 n a + 2 n b + 2 n c = 2 n n = 2 \ge \frac{2}{n} a + \frac{2}{n} b + \frac{2}{n} c = \frac{2}{n} * n = 2

Therefore 2 2 is a lower bound on k k . Let's show that it is also an upper bound. Let b = n a 2 b = \frac{n-a}{2} and c = n a 2 c = \frac{n-a}{2} . Then the function becomes: a n a + n a n + a + n a n + a \sqrt{\frac{a}{n-a}} + \sqrt{\frac{n-a}{n+a}} + \sqrt{\frac{n-a}{n+a}}

Hence, as a a approaches zero, b b and c c approach n 2 \frac{n}{2} , and the function approaches 2 2 . Hence it can get arbitrarily close to 2 2 , and therefore the minimum value is at most 2. Hence k 2 k \le 2 .

Therefore, we must have k = 2 k = \boxed{2} .

Christopher Boo
Nov 6, 2014

Normally, equality occurs when a = b = c a=b=c . A quick substitution to the problem we get k = 3 2 k=\frac{3}{\sqrt2} .

However, what if one of the variable gets 0 0 ? Say, a = 0 a=0 .

b c + c b k \sqrt{\frac{b}{c}}+\sqrt{\frac{c}{b}}\geq k

Now the question gets elementary, which answer to the question is k = 2 k=2 .


Assuming a = b = c a=b=c will normally get us to the minimum value of an equation. This is because it is the equality case of AM-GM Inequality. However, AM-GM can only be applied to a set of positive real numbers. They ignore the fact that a variable can be 0 0 . So , when we let a = 0 a=0 , a minimum value occurs.

Noticed that a , b , c a,b,c are positive triples of real number. So assume

a = lim n 0 n \displaystyle a=\lim_{n \to 0}n

I believe this is the reason Calvin wants k k to 2 decimal places. (Because it is not exactly 2 2 )

@Calvin Lin is my explanation correct? I remembered that there was a similar type of question and @Michael Tong provided a very good explanation about WLOG.

Christopher Boo - 6 years, 7 months ago

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Mentioning @Calvin Lin and @Michael Tong (since it doesn't seem like they were actually mentioned).

Silas Hundt Staff - 6 years, 7 months ago

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Yea I don't know why it fails?

Christopher Boo - 6 years, 7 months ago

Your explanation is not correct, because you only looked at very specific cases. You need to cover "all positive triples of real numbers", but have only covered cases where a b c a \approx b \approx c and a 0 , b = c a \rightarrow 0, b = c \rightarrow \infty .

How do you know that a = 1 , b = 2 c a = 1, b = 2c \rightarrow \infty doesn't produce a smaller bound?

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 7 months ago

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Isn't the application of AM-GM covered "all positive triples of real numbers"? Since AM-GM produces the answer 3 2 \frac{3}{\sqrt 2} , isn't that means in every combination of three positive real numbers, the largest value k k can be is 3 2 \frac{3}{\sqrt 2} , then we investigate when the triples are not all positive real numbers, for example a 0 a \rightarrow 0 . So I think I actually considered every possible cases?

Christopher Boo - 6 years, 7 months ago

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@Christopher Boo How did AM-GM produce the answer 3 2 \frac{ 3 } { \sqrt{2} } ? All that I see is "Setting a = b = c a = b = c produces the value 3 2 \frac{3} { \sqrt{2} } .

The case of a 0 a \rightarrow 0 still falls under "3 positive real numbers". You missed out alot of cases here still. It is not correct to set a = 0 a = 0 . There is no guarantee (as yet) that the function is continuous at 0.

EG you did not consider cases where a , b 0 a, b \rightarrow 0 , in which case c a + b \sqrt{ \frac{ c} { a + b }} would become undefined if you set a = b = 0 a = b = 0 .

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 7 months ago

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@Calvin Lin @Calvin Lin see my AM-GM solution. You have to be a bit careful to find the equality case, but it works.

Nathan Ramesh - 6 years, 6 months ago
Lu Chee Ket
Jan 4, 2015

Sample: a = 0.001, b = 326.058 and c = 329.825 for 2.00126471003224; the largest lower limit ought to be 2.00 by observation.

PROGRAM abc; {2.00}

USES CRT;

VAR

a, b, c, huge, range: LONGINT;

a , b , c_, k, p, am, bm, cm: EXTENDED;

BEGIN

 CLRSCR;

 RANDOMIZE;

 huge:=0; {1, 10, 100 and etc would not produce minimum.}

 range:=huge+10;

 k:=3.0*SQRT(0.5);

 REPEAT

       FOR a:=huge TO range DO

           FOR b:=huge TO range DO

               FOR c:=huge TO range DO

               BEGIN  {Allow occasional division by zero for efficiency.}

                    a_:=0.001*RANDOM(1000)+a;

                    b_:=0.001*RANDOM(1000)+b;

                    c_:=0.001*RANDOM(1000)+c;

                    p:=SQRT(a_/(b_+c_))+SQRT(b_/(c_+a_))+SQRT(c_/(a_+b_));

                    IF (p<k) AND (a_<>0.0) AND (b_<>0.0) AND (c_<>0.0) THEN

                    BEGIN

                       k:=p;

                       am:=a_;

                       bm:=b_;

                       cm:=c_

                    END

               END;

       WRITELN(k:1:18, '    ', range, '    ', am:1:3, '    ', bm:1:3, '    ', cm:1:3);

       range:=range+10

 UNTIL KEYPRESSED;

 WRITE(k:1:18);

 READLN

END.

Calvin Lin Staff
Nov 3, 2014

[This is not a solution.]

For a hint, see this problem .

For those who can solve it, you will realize that the equality condition does not occur when a = b = c a = b = c , hence the title. I would appreciate if you can contribute to the Wiki page Inequality with strange equality conditions .

I think the solution is a = any number & b=c --> infinity. Answer is 2

Piyush Dawande - 6 years, 7 months ago

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The problem With that is that infinity/infinity is undefined

Trevor Arashiro - 6 years, 7 months ago

Well, as b b and c c approaches infinity, it approaches 0 + 1 + 1 = 2 0+\sqrt{1}+\sqrt{1}=\boxed{2}

Julian Poon - 6 years, 7 months ago

How do you know that there isn't another combination which will let you go below 2?

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 7 months ago

Are there any symmetrical inequalities where min/max does NOT occur at a=b=c or a=b and c=0... And I got two as well, but the decimal thing scared me out of putting 2...

Trevor Arashiro - 6 years, 7 months ago

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Try finding the minimum of ( x 1 ) 2 ( y 1 ) 2 ( x - 1) ^2 ( y -1)^2 subject to x + y = 10 x + y = 10 .

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 7 months ago

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Ahh, I see, assuming that x and y are positive, then the minimum should be 0

Trevor Arashiro - 6 years, 7 months ago

@Calvin Lin what if a=b=1 and c=infinity then the max value of k tends to infinity..?

Aman Gautam - 6 years, 7 months ago

Ummm...I accidentally published my solution as private and I can't undo itAny help?

Bogdan Simeonov - 6 years, 7 months ago

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@Calvin Lin help please :D

Bogdan Simeonov - 6 years, 7 months ago

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It has now been made public.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 7 months ago

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