Troublesome Cylinder!

A cylinder is rolling with speed v 0 = ω 0 R v_0=\omega_0 R over a frictionless horizontal surface toward the wall, as in the figure below. The coefficient of friction between the wall and the cylinder is μ = 1 4 \mu = \frac14 .

If the collision between the cylinder and the wall is completely inelastic, find the kinetic energy of the cylinder after the collision.

Given that this kinetic energy can be expressed as a b m v 0 2 \dfrac ab mv_0^2 , where a a and b b are coprime positive integers, what is a + b a+b ? After done with this you may also want to to do this


The answer is 35.

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3 solutions

Mark Hennings
Oct 28, 2016

Since the collision with the wall is perfectly inelastic, the wall exerts a normal impulse of m v 0 mv_0 on the cylinder, and hence a frictional impulse of 1 4 m v 0 \tfrac14mv_0 is exerted upwards on the cylinder. After the collision, the cylinder has velocity ( 0 , 1 4 v 0 ) (0,\tfrac14v_0) . The frictional impulse reduces the angular velocity of the cylinder by Δ ω \Delta\omega , where 1 2 m r 2 Δ ω = 1 4 m v 0 r \tfrac12mr^2\Delta\omega \; = \; \tfrac14mv_0r and hence Δ ω = v 0 2 r \Delta\omega = \tfrac{v_0}{2r} , so that the angular velocity of the cylinder after the collision is v 0 r v 0 2 r = v 0 2 r \tfrac{v_0}{r} - \tfrac{v_0}{2r} = \tfrac{v_0}{2r} . Thus the kinetic energy of the cylinder after the collision is 1 2 m ( 1 4 v 0 ) 2 + 1 2 × 1 2 m r 2 ( v 0 2 r ) 2 = 3 32 m v 0 2 \tfrac12m\big(\tfrac14v_0\big)^2 + \tfrac12 \times \tfrac12mr^2 \big(\tfrac{v_0}{2r}\big)^2 \; = \; \tfrac{3}{32}mv_0^2 making the answer 35 \boxed{35} .

I don't see why if the collision with the wall were perfectly elastic, instead of inelastic, then the angular velocity of the cylinder would be turned to 0 by the collision. can you explain it please.

Mr X - 4 years, 7 months ago

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I guess I overstated the case.

Suppose we understand "perfectly elastic" to mean "energy-conserving". Suppose that the cylinder has horizontal velocity v x v_x away from the wall, and vertical velocity v y v_y , and also has angular velocity ω \omega . Conservation of angular momentum (about the point of contact of the cylinder with the wall) tells us that r ω + 2 v y = v 0 r\omega + 2v_y \; = \; v_0 while, assuming conservation of energy, we deduce that r 2 ω 2 + 2 v x 2 + 2 v y 2 = 3 v 0 2 r^2\omega^2 + 2v_x^2 + 2v_y^2 \; = \; 3v_0^2 Since the impulsive normal reaction is four times larger than the impulsive friction force, we also deduce that x v + v 0 = 4 v y x_v + v_0 \; = \; 4v_y Putting these three equations together we deduce that ( r ω v 0 ) ( 19 r ω + v 0 ) = 0 (r\omega - v_0)(19r\omega + v_0) \; = \; 0 and hence (either r ω = v 0 r\omega = v_0 , which is what happens if no collision occurs, or) r ω = 1 19 v 0 r\omega = -\tfrac{1}{19}v_0 , and so the cylinder has, in fact, a nonzero angular velocity after the collision.

If we take "perfectly elastic" to mean "the cylinder moves away from the wall with the same speed as it approached the wall (so the coefficient of restitution is 1 1 ", then we would have v x = v 0 v_x = v_0 and v y = 1 2 v 0 v_y = \tfrac12v_0 , which would imply that ω = 0 \omega = 0 . But then energy is not conserved.

Elastic collisions are more complicated when the colliding objects are no longer point particles!

Mark Hennings - 4 years, 7 months ago

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thank you Mark for your answer. I always read you and enjoy your style of considering all the details.

But once again at the end I have a new point for which I am not OK with you. here is it: "If we take "perfectly elastic" to mean "the cylinder moves away from the wall with the same speed as it approached the wall (so the coefficient of restitution is ", then we would have Vx=V0 and Vy=1/2*V0 , which would imply that . But then energy is not conserved."

correct me if I'm wrong, in this last case we will not have w=0. and the energy will be conserved. All what we have to do is taking sqr(Vx)+sqr(Vy)=sqr(V0) then calculate w for witch the energy is conserved.

Mr X - 4 years, 7 months ago

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@Mr X No, because angular momentum about the point of impact will be conserved. If v y = 1 2 v 0 v_y=\tfrac12v_0 , then we must have ω = 0 \omega=0 , since r ω + 2 v y = v 0 r\omega+2v_y= v_0 . Energy is not conserved. We do not have the luxury of choosing the value of ω \omega that we want.

Mark Hennings - 4 years, 7 months ago

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@Mark Hennings plz try my other problem too !!

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

@Mark Hennings One last question : is it possible to have a perfectly elastic collision on a surface with friction?

Mr X - 4 years, 7 months ago

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@Mr X If no slipping occurs during the collision (and the collision is thought of as instantaneous, so there is no time for such motion), then the friction forces will do no work, and so should not affect conservation of energy.

Mark Hennings - 4 years, 7 months ago

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@Mark Hennings thanks. +1 for you

Mr X - 4 years, 7 months ago

https://brilliant.org/problems/another-troublesome-cylinder/ try it's next part too!

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

464 views (100%)   174 attempts (38%)   16 solvers (3%) yet level 4 :'( @Josh Silverman

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 4 months ago
Swagat Panda
Oct 28, 2016

Shubham's solution with a little more detail.

Yes, I forgot to mention that this is just a extension of your solution, for those who are finding it difficult.

Swagat Panda - 4 years, 7 months ago

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I don't know, but I saw your name missing from the conversation list, so I just asked about it, nothing else

Swagat Panda - 4 years, 7 months ago

how is your advance prep going /( on 14th nov. ?? )

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

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Well, I was preparing for KVPY along with advance, but fairly speaking, my school is just after me on practicals, making it difficult to study

Swagat Panda - 4 years, 7 months ago

Since the cylinder is lifted up the ground after the instant of collision,shouldnt the weight of it also be taken into account?? It's gaining potential energy and it doesnt come for free😀 The friction force should do work again st gravity to impart it vertically velocity,shouldnt it!!

Chirag Shyamsundar - 4 years, 7 months ago

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Since friction is a non conservative force and in inelastic collisions kinetic energy is not conserved, you cannot apply work energy theorem here, even if you calculate the work done by friction.

Swagat Panda - 4 years, 7 months ago

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Yes absolutely,thers no denying that,but then where did the force of gravity disappear,since the cylinder has got vertical velocity it must surely be off ground,so doesn't gravity resist this motion??

Chirag Shyamsundar - 4 years, 7 months ago

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@Chirag Shyamsundar Normal reaction acts as a catalyst in this scenario,helping cylinder to lift of without doing any work.

Same is the case a football collides with a staircase and rolls abt the edge of stair.

@Mark Hennings can you please provide some insight to us?

Harsh Shrivastava - 4 years, 7 months ago

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@Harsh Shrivastava While the cylinder is in contact with the floor, the normal reaction from the floor on the cylinder equals the force of gravity, so their effects cancel out. Once the cylinder lifts off, after the collision, the force of gravity will affect the future motion.

During collisions, we are primarily interested in impulses. These are the effect of very large ("infinite") forces F F acting over very small ("zero") time in such a way that the integral of F F with respect to time (the impulse) is finite. The impulsive version of Newton's equations are that:

  • an impulse produces an ("instantaneous") change of momentum,
  • an impulsive torque produces an ("instantaneous") change in angular momentum.

During the collision, the normal reaction with the wall, and consequently the friction force with the wall, are impulsive in nature. The normal reaction with the floor and the force of gravity are not. These are both equal to m g mg , and a finite force integrated over a very small ("zero") time interval will provide a negligible ("zero") impulse. Thus the only impulses we need to consider are those given by the normal reaction and friction with the wall, since these are the only nonzero ones.

Mark Hennings - 4 years, 7 months ago

https://brilliant.org/problems/another-troublesome-cylinder/ try it tooo!

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

Initially i didnt thought of taking the vertical velocity gained by the cylinder.

Md Zuhair - 3 years, 4 months ago

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Same here @Md Zuhair

Ankit Kumar Jain - 2 years, 2 months ago

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accha sun.. if it was not a perfectly inelastic collision.. phir bhi hota kya vertical velocity? Like just after collision there will be no contact with wall.. then it shouldnt have that na?

Md Zuhair - 2 years, 2 months ago

after you do it all, you will get the answer as a a =3 and b b =32.

The solution is not clear at all

Vijay Simha - 4 years, 7 months ago

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why ? i think i have give sufficient information sir !

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

The solution is very poor.Please be a bit more detailed....

ARUNEEK BISWAS - 4 years, 7 months ago

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i think i have give sufficient information , i will be able to help if you tell what's not clear, right? also, plz make sure you have covered the basics of rigid body dynamics because if you had your basics clear, the terminologies and the solution would be automatically be crystal clear to you . cheers :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

hope it's clear , cheers!

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

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Nice question. Also, have you stopped using slack?

Swagat Panda - 4 years, 7 months ago

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yep, deleted (deactivated) my account there

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

upvote and like my sol. so that this problem reaches to more people!

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 7 months ago

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