Think twice

If in a system, all the internal forces are conservative, then the mechanical energy of that system remains constant only when there are no external forces acting on it. Is this statement always true?

(The total mechanical energy of a system, is the sum of its kinetic energy and potential energy.)

No Yes

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3 solutions

Abha Vishwakarma
Sep 15, 2018

The first thing to keep in mind is that potential energy is defined corresponding to the internal conservative forces of a system. It is so because if potential energy were defined for non-conservative forces then we could associate two different energies of an object at the same point in space. Take for example friction which is a non-conservative force. If it was considered for determining the potential energy of an object then that object initially would have a certain potential energy say E, and after traversing a path and coming back to its original position it would have a reduced potential energy which is less than E since friction did some work on it. But then potential energy would be a useless concept. That is why only internal conservative forces are considered to determine the potential energy of a system.

Keeping that in mind, now the change in potential energy of a system is equal to the work done by the internal conservative forces as it passes through one configuration to another.

U f U i = W U_f - U_i = -W where the negative sign is a convention.

By the work-energy theorem we know that work done is equal to the change in kinetic energy.

So,

U f U i = ( K f K i ) U_f - U_i = -(K_f - K_i) U f U i = K i K f \Rightarrow U_f - U_i = K_i - K_f U f + K f = U i + K i \Rightarrow U_f + K_f = U_i + K_i

After close inspection it is clear that either there are no external forces or the work done by them is zero . Either of the two is possible so the statement in the question, in general, is false.

The problem explicitly states no external forces act. So how can the work done by a "non-existent force" be "existingly" zero? Can you give an example of this? Ask yourself the question "The work done by what is zero? There are no external forces..." Also the last line of your derivation indicates the the summation of Potential and Kinetic Energy (what you call mechanincal energy) in conserved?

Eric Roberts - 2 years, 8 months ago

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I got your point. I had stated the question wrongly. Now I have edited it and I don't think there will be this issue. Thanks for pointing out the problem.

Abha Vishwakarma - 2 years, 8 months ago

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I think the correct answer to your question is”Yes”. So we are still in disagreement.

Eric Roberts - 2 years, 8 months ago

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@Eric Roberts Why so? The mechanical energy is still constant if there is an external force which acts perpendicular to the motion of the object since then it wont do any work.

Abha Vishwakarma - 2 years, 8 months ago

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@Abha Vishwakarma Well in that case there would need to be a pair of mirrored external forces acting on the body orthogonal to the direction of motion. But yes, I see now that I more carefully read your rewording that is the case. However, the way you originally had it worded ( the question I answered ) "yes" was the correct answer.

Eric Roberts - 2 years, 8 months ago

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@Eric Roberts Yeah the previous one had yes as the answer.

Abha Vishwakarma - 2 years, 8 months ago
Siddharth Jindal
Sep 23, 2018

Presence of external forces do not necessarily imply that they are also doing work. That's where the statement went false. Otherwise if external forces are doing work on the system then energy of the system has to change.

At first I got this question wrong but then I realized that it's just needed an example of external forces that don't change the total mechanical energy, so I thought on a net external force that is equal to zero such that the external forces (let's say F and f, are equal in magnitude but with different direction and it can be just in 1D) then there would be external forces (but a net external force equal to zero) and the total mechanical energy wouldn't change. I'm not sure if this way is right so I would like to know if I'm wrong again. (Sorry if my English is bad)

Luis Villarreal - 1 year, 10 months ago
Siddharth Uttam
Sep 16, 2018

Net force zero.. Doesn't mean that the total work done by Forces are also zero.. Because work done is force . Displacement

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