Three Rotating Objects with Identical Torque (1)

A solid disk, a solid sphere, and a hoop of identical mass m m and radius R R are mounted at rest on frictionless axles. Each object has a string wrapped around its circumference, and the strings are each pulled with an identical force F F for the same time interval; the strings do not slip.

Which object will have the greatest rotational kinetic energy at the end of the time interval?

Note: The mass of the spokes on the hoop is negligible.

Solid Disk Solid Sphere Hoop The three objects will have the same kinetic energy

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10 solutions

Peter Macgregor
Jun 18, 2018

The work done by the pull of the string is force times distance. Assuming no air resistance or frictional loses, all of this work goes into increasing the rotational kinetic energy of the objects.

If the strings were pulled for the same distance , the three objects would end up with the same kinetic energy and the last answer would be correct. But the question states that the string was pulled for the same time in each case.

The three objects spin up with different speeds. The object which spins up fasted unwinds more string, so that it has the greatest Force x Distance and so the greatest energy.

The resistance to a torque's effort to produce rotational acceleration is given by the moment of inertia of the object. The moments of inertia for the disk, sphere and hoop are respectively m r 2 2 \frac{mr^2}{2} , 2 m r 2 5 \frac{2mr^2}{5} and m r 2 mr^2

So the sphere has the lowest moment of inertia, so it speeds up fastest, so it unwinds the greatest length of string, so the sphere's force does the most work, and so the sphere ends up with the greatest kinetic energy!

Your rotational inertias should be 1 2 m R 2 \frac{1}{2}mR^{2} for the disk and m R 2 mR^{2} for the hoop.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

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Thanks Jim, I've edited my solution.

Peter Macgregor - 2 years, 11 months ago

What if the hoop, the sphere, and the disk all have the same radius, but are made from different materials so that they all have the same total mass?

Kermit Rose - 2 years, 11 months ago

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They do have the same mass.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

Why are we assuming no air resistance?

A Former Brilliant Member - 2 years, 11 months ago

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The question states "frictionless axis".

Tyler Sy - 2 years, 11 months ago

I suppose it should say so. Technically the frictionless axle and air resistance are separate; but this question is assessing the knowledge of the relationships between torque, angular velocity, rotational inertia, and kinetic energy. Fluid mechanics is a much more advanced concept.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

But there was solid sphere, not solid ball, so moment of inertia is (2/3)mR^2, not (2/5)mR^2.

Why the hell I fail riddles because of bad understanding of initial data ??? >:(

Damir Aktemov - 2 years, 11 months ago

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What is the difference between a sphere and a ball?

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

The 2/3 refers to a hollow sphere (or hollow ball).

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

The problem stated neglect mass, which confused me to answer the last one.

Jao Garcia - 2 years, 11 months ago

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The problem states that the mass of the spokes on the hoop is negligible, not the mass of the hoop itself.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

Sphere has the lowest moment of inertia.i calculated the moment of inertia of sphere. I got the answer 3/5mr^2. I don’t know where I made the mistake. I might have made some mistake while integrating.

Srikanth Tupurani - 2 years, 11 months ago

Thank you for the comment. It is very nicely written and explains in much detail. :)

Yash Mehan - 2 years, 11 months ago

Thank you.

Michael Leslie Troth - 2 years, 11 months ago

The torque for all three objects is F R F*R . By the rotational form of Newtons second law we get that the angular acceleration α = α= F R I \frac{F*R}{I} where I is the moment of inertia. After a time interval t the tangential velocity v will be v = v= F R t I \frac{F*R*t}{I} . If we divide this by R we get the angular velocity w = w= F t I \frac{F*t}{I} . The rotational kinetic energy is given by K = K= 1 2 \frac{1}{2} I w 2 Iw^2 . If we insert w into this we get K = K= F 2 t 2 2 I \frac{F^2*t^2}{2I} . The force and time is equal in all scenarioes. Therefore the object with the greatest kinetic energy will have the smallest moment of inertia. Of the three objects the sphere has the smallest moment ofinertia. Therefore is the sphere the correct answer.

Jim Ciccarelli
Jun 7, 2018

Each of the three objects is subject to the same net torque because the force in each case is the same, and the radius of each object is the same. Since the time intervals are the same, and the angular impulse is defined by torque times time, the change in each object's angular momentum will be the same. Therefore, the object with the smallest rotational inertia will have the largest angular velocity at the end of the interval. The solid sphere has the smallest rotational inertia of the three objects; its rotational inertia is 2 5 m R 2 \frac{2}{5}mR^{2} . The formula for rotational kinetic energy depends on the square of the angular velocity ( K = 1 2 I ω 2 K = \frac{1}{2}I\omega^{2} ) so the sphere will have the most rotational kinetic energy.

The rotational KE depends on the square of the angular velocity ω \omega , and therefore (for this problem) is inversely proportional to the moment of inertia I I . This second point is worth making.

Mark Hennings - 2 years, 12 months ago

What about the air resistance?

Plop Plop - 2 years, 11 months ago

aren't they pulled for the same distance so same force and same distance means same work?

A Former Brilliant Member - 2 years, 11 months ago

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The distance is not the same. The time interval is.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

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oh I misread, however, if the strings were the same length, and some other variables were sacrificed like time and not force, would the rotational energy be the same?

A Former Brilliant Member - 2 years, 11 months ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member I agree. The 3 objects seem to have the same radius thus spin up to the same speed in the same time. The wheel has the most mass in the fastest zone therefore will have the most kinetic energy. What am I missing?

Alex Eve - 2 years, 11 months ago

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@Alex Eve all 3 objects are under the same force for the same amount of time, its the same principle as basically pushing a heavy object versus pushing a light object, assuming there is no friction, the heavy object would accelerate much more slowly, this is due to the equation F=ma and a, which is the acceleration or the change in velocity, is a=F/m so, therefore, something with more mass would have less acceleration, this is the same principle with the rotation question but instead of mass the "mass" of rotating objects is inertia which is represented by m r^2, inertia, like mass is basically how hard something is to accelerate with a force, as you can see by this formula, m r^2, a larger radius, or more mass concentrated at the radius would yield a larger moment of inertia and would, therefore, be harder to accelerate, yielding a lower angular acceleration and therefore also having a smaller angular velocity, the fastest zone will have a smaller velocity and if you calculate it against all the other objects while factoring in the radius it will be less than all the other ones with smaller moment of intertia, sorry if it didn't make a lot of sense

A Former Brilliant Member - 2 years, 11 months ago

Clever question Jim. I had intuitively thought the largest rotational inertia would have the largest kinetic energy after the equal-force-time-interval. Shouldn't have neglected that angular velocity squared though!

Steve Barna - 2 years, 11 months ago

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rotational inertia is like mass as in it prevents things from being accelerated to as large a speed with the same amount of force

A Former Brilliant Member - 2 years, 11 months ago

There is another version of this question - it has the same title but (2). In that version the distance through which the force is applied is the same. In that case the energies are the same. These questions were inspired by the AP Physics 1 curriculum.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

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You could also ask how the angular momenta of the three objects compare (in either the equal-time or equal-distance versions).

Matthew Feig - 2 years, 11 months ago

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@Matthew Feig Check this one out:

https://brilliant.org/problems/three-objects-with-identical-torque-2/

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago
Lars Huttar
Jun 19, 2018

Being ignorant of the formulas for rotational inertia, here's how I did it. We remember E = m c 2 E = m c^2 , where c is velocity (of light in this case, but we also know the relationship applies to other velocities). So energy is proportional to mass, but proportional to the square of velocity. Assuming constant density within each shape (which probably should have been made explicit in the problem), the sphere (compared to hoop and disc) has less of its mass concentrated near the edge, where the force is applied and where the leverage is greatest. So the velocity of bits on its edge (considered linear at the point of force application) will increase more than that of the other shapes. The lower mass decreases the resulting energy by a certain factor, but the higher velocity increases the resulting energy by the same factor squared.

I suppose it should say "uniform and homogeneous." Typically that is assumed.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

This is similar to how I did it as well. I looked at it as a mass distribution problem. The hoop has all its mass on the outer edge so requires the most energy to accelerate, resulting in lower acceleration. Next the disk has its mass spread throughout so it has less mass on the outer edge and so has higher acceleration, while the sphere has even less mass on the outer edge as it's mass is also distributed along the three dimensional axis and thus has the highest acceleration.

N B - 2 years, 11 months ago
Ferio Brahmana
Jun 23, 2018

The physical hint is the more sphere the easier to spin( thanks to momen inertia(I) ), so it is easy to assume that the sphere must be the fastest at the last in a same time interval, therefore, the greatest rotational kinetic energy must be sphere

Sa Walsh
Jun 21, 2018

Greater Volume gives the most momentum, I tried to intuit. Thought the wheel shape moves most easily, the disc secondly and the sphere had the most inertia to overcome. But Mass same and frictionless so while I first thought the wheel would spin the most so it would have the most kinetic energy, but then thought it would be dissipated in easy exchange....so the sphere might capture the most energy and transfer through to it's kinetics- with all other things being equalized through applied force. My daughter then told me that generally k=(\frac{mv^2}{2}), which seemed to suggest the greater volume would have the greater (Ek)

Cornio Wassig
Jun 20, 2018

After reading some stuff on Wikipedia, i found that E{rot}= .5 * Angular Velocity * Angular Mass, where Angular Velocity stays the same at all 3 objects, since, when you pull at 3 objects which have the same mass with the same force, they will all rotate at the same velocity, and where the Angular Mass is idk but read from wikipedia that it gets smaller as the mass is closer to the center of the object. And now, if you take a wheel or a disc, the ratio of mass is less extreme then if you would take a sphere, where there is much more mass much further away from the center.

I'm not familiar with angular mass. You have a couple of misconceptions here. First, the three objects do not rotate at the same velocity. The TORQUE is the same in each case, but the rotational inertia is not. The rotational inertia is the rotational analogy to mass; that is, the resistance to being accelerated in an angular sense. So the object with the smallest rotational inertia (the sphere) will have the largest angular acceleration. In the case of the sphere, there is a LARGER proportion of the mass CLOSER to the center, which is why the coefficient of its rotational inertia is smaller than that of a disk.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago
Prabesh Humagain
Jun 20, 2018

the total kinetic energy of rotating body is given by 1/2 I w^2 so for moment of inertia is the only variable quantity in above eqn and because solid sphere has higher moment of inertia, it has high KE

Actually the solid sphere has the lowest rotational inertia of the three shapes. See Peter Macgregor's solution above.

Jim Ciccarelli - 2 years, 11 months ago

Given same angular impulses (that is force × radius × time), the fastest (and therefore with greatest energy since they all have same mass) object will be the one with fewest momentum of inertia. You don't have to know exact formulas except the definition: I = m i r i 2 I=\displaystyle \sum m_ir_i^2 where r r is distance to the axis.

Knowing that, you can determine which object has fewer I I : hoop has all its mass at (nearly) R R , and sphere has more mass closer to the axis than the disc because it is volumetric (if difficult to imagine, use the word "points" instead of "mass", but technically it is quite inscientific). Hence, the sphere has the lowest momentum of inertia, and would have greatest energy in this experiment.

Vitot Pivot
Jun 19, 2018

First time commenting here. Don't know if it's a valid argument, but since all objects have the same mass, and because the sphere has a greater area, the sphere would be lighter in proportion, making it easier to rotate.

I believe (mass = volume * density) and (weight = mass * gravity)

Chris Bradford - 2 years, 11 months ago

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