Top spin

A tennis ball hits the court with angle of incidence 3 0 , 30^\circ, and the ball has such a perfect top spin that even after it bounces, it is still spinning fast.

At what angle (in degrees relative to the horizontal) will the ball emerge after the collision?


Details and Assumptions:

  • A top spin means that the top of the ball moves in the same direction as the center of the ball, while the bottom of the ball moves in the opposite direction. For a really good top spin, the rotation of the ball is so fast that ω r v \omega r \gg v is satisfied ( ω (\omega is the angular velocity of the ball, r r is the ball's radius, and v v is the ball's velocity ) . ).
  • Assume that the collision is as elastic as possible. The deformation of the ball during the collision does not take away any kinetic energy from the ball. On a perfectly slippery court, the ball would bounce back with the same kinetic energy.
  • The coefficient of friction between the ball and the surface of the court is 0.15 0.15 .


The answer is 26.2.

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3 solutions

Laszlo Mihaly
Aug 31, 2017

Relevant wiki: Friction

Without friction, the normal force N N exerted by the court would give an impulse to the ball in the vertical direction so that the vertical component of the velocity is the same as before, but the direction is opposite (elastic collision). The friction force is horizontal, therefore it will not influence the vertical motion. Therefore we can conclude that in this collision the magnitude of the vertical impulse is 2 m v sin α 2mv \sin \alpha , where m m is the mass, v v is the velocity and α \alpha is the angle of incidence.

During the collision the friction force exerts a horizontal impulse. Since the ball has a top spin, this force will point forward, causing the horizontal component of the velocity to increase from its original value of v cos α v \cos \alpha . To see this, assume the collision takes a time of Δ t \Delta t . If the vertical force is N N and the horizontal force is F = μ N F=\mu N , than the vertical impulse is N Δ t N \Delta t and the horizontal impulse is μ N Δ t \mu N \Delta t . The difference between the final and initial momentum is equal to the impulse. For the horizontal component we get

m v x m v x = μ N Δ t m v_x' -mv_x = \mu N \Delta t

For the vertical components

2 m v y = N Δ t 2 mv_y = N \Delta t

because in the vertical direction the collision is elastic. If we eliminate N Δ t N \Delta t and divide by m m we get

v x v x = 2 μ v y v_x' -v_x = 2\mu v_y

The angle after the collision is θ \theta and the magnitude of the velocity v v' . If we express the components in terms of angles and magnitudes we get

v sin α = v sin θ v \sin \alpha= v' \sin \theta , because in this direction the collision is elastic

v cos α + 2 μ v sin θ = v cos θ v \cos \alpha +2\mu v \sin \theta = v' \cos \theta , because the friction force increases the velocity of the ball, as seen above.

Therefore

tan θ = v y v x = sin α cos α + 2 μ sin α \tan \theta =\frac{v_y'}{v_x'}= \frac{\sin \alpha}{\cos \alpha +2 \mu \sin \alpha} .

With the numbers in the problem we get θ 2 6 o \theta \approx 26^o

Notes:

  • For a weaker top spin it is possible that the ball stops spinning and simply rolls on the surface at some time during the collision. In that case the angle of emergence will be larger. If the ball has no spin at all, it will start rotating during the time it is in contact with the court. This will reduce the horizontal component of the velocity and the ball will emerge at an angle larger than 3 0 o 30^o

  • The coefficient of friction greatly depends on the surface of the court. The value used here is relatively small compared to the measured values on real tennis courts. For example according to measurements by the International Tennis Federation μ \mu is between 0.4 and 0.9.

Doesn't this suggest the final angle is independent of size of top spin? I was expecting the magnitude of top spin to be a variable factor in the answer.

Ray Guy - 3 years, 9 months ago

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You are right, in most cases. That is because the ball stops spinning during the impact, and depending on the strength of the spin it may stop sooner or later. However, when a professional player hits the ball the top spin can be really fast and the ball does not stop rotating during the collision. In that case the result is independent of the spin. That is why I stated that "the ball has such a perfect top spin that even after it bounces, it is still spinning fast."

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 9 months ago

If I would neglect the spin and just consider perfect bounce what would the answer be then?(34.9 ?)

Bijay Shah - 3 years, 9 months ago

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For elastic collision the answer is 30 deg. For a real ball with no spin the angle will be a bit less, because it starts spinning during the collision. You can get a larger angle for back spin.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 9 months ago

In my experience the opposite happens in practice. A topspun ball kicks up and a backspun ball stays low. I assume this is because the ball deforms on impact. For a topspun ball the front edge is descending and imparts a downward force on the court, converting angular momentum into a vertical rebound. The reverse happens to a backspun ball. It is particularly effective on grass where a vary fast backspin can hold the ball down until it starts to roll because the front edge slides up the grass leaves exerting a downward force on the ball. For a steel tennis ball on a steel court the calculation would be appropriate.

Hugh Fletcher - 3 years, 9 months ago

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I am not sure about grass, but on clay and other surfaces my experience is correctly described in the problem. A ball with a top spin comes to you lower than expected and it also gains speed after the collision. As I noted at the end of my solution for larger coefficient of frictions, common on tennis courts, the effect may be even stronger. Are you sure that we are using the same definition for tops spin?

For the general consensus on this issue, please read the Wikipedia article about "top spin".

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 9 months ago

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Yes I understand spin. I see that the initial problem was clear that the v-rotation was much greater than v-forward. I was remembering serves, where forward velocity is high. My apologies. There are other complications. Tennis balls have a hairy coat that sticks out from a spinning ball, and the balls are not elastic, and are very deformable. When spun, the normal force will not act towards the centre of gravity of the ball. Assume that the point of greatest pressure contact makes a short-lived pivot about which the ball starts to change its rotation. For a topspun ball the main transfer of force and hence greatest friction will be ahead of the centre of gravity. Rotation about it would force the centre of gravity up. For a backspun ball the greatest friction/force comes where the descending surface strikes the ground behind the centre of gravity. While this sticks to the ground, conversion of forward velocity to rotation will pull the centre of gravity down. Think of taking a slice off a ball and putting the ball flat-surface on the ground. If it is spinning forwards the front will dig in and stop and the ball will rise over it. If it is backspinning there will be less downward force at the front and the ball will tend to skid like a waterski over the surface. A backspun ball may throw earth up as well as forward. There is another complication of spin. A ball with topspin will curve its trajectory downwards hitting the ground at a steep angle, resulting in a high bounce, a backspun ball will lift its trajectory (lift may exceed gravity) so hit the ground at a very shallow angle, resulting in a very shallow bounce. If a backspun ball is hit with very little or no forward velocity it can actually bounce backwards, which is your calculation in extreme, the friction force from spin is greater than the forward velocity and the ball changes direction. A topspun service ball, usually hit as hard as practically possible, will bounce higher that a backspun serve on grass or asphalt. Considering that the service ball is either returned by reflex or missed before the receiver is conscious that it has been hit, the apparent kick up of a topspun serve could be due to its aerial deviation before impact, likewise the low bounce of a backspun ball. To see the grass effect exaggerated just hit a ball into long grass. It doesn't bounce.

Hugh Fletcher - 3 years, 9 months ago

Sorry, I'm a bit new to some of this stuff. Why / How is impulse related to force? I thought they were effectively totally different things. And then once you did Friction= u*N, how did you derive the increase in velocity?

I'd really appreciate if you can spare the time to reply, so thanks in advance.

Seb Wilkes - 3 years, 9 months ago

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Assume the collision takes a time of Δ t \Delta t . If the force is F = μ N F=\mu N the horizontal impulse is μ N Δ t \mu N \Delta t , the vertical impulse is N Δ t N \Delta t .

The difference between the final and initial momentum is equal to the impulse. For the horizontal component we get

m v x m v x = μ N Δ t m v_x' -mv_x = \mu N \Delta t

For the vertical components

2 m v y = N Δ t 2 mv_y = N \Delta t

because in the vertical direction the collision is elastic. If we eliminate N Δ t N \Delta t and divide by m m we get the equation used in the solution.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 9 months ago

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this is quite helpful. I almost have it figured out. but where does the tangent come from? v cos + 2mu v*sin is supposed to be a sum of horizontal components, correct? that is telling us the velocity of the ball to the left after impact?

Matthew Agona - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Matthew Agona I added some stuff to the solution to answer that.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 8 months ago

I don't understand how you went from using v cos for the horizontal component to using 2mu v*sin for the increase in velocity in the horizontal component. can you please elaborate?

Matthew Agona - 3 years, 9 months ago

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I corrected and expanded the solution

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 8 months ago

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thanks. this is great.

Matthew Agona - 3 years, 8 months ago

I am also having trouble seeing how you related sine theta and cosine alpha to tangent alpha. can you please help?

Matthew Agona - 3 years, 8 months ago

Why would the magnitude of the vertical impulse be 2 m v S i n θ 2mvSin\theta ? If the magnitude of vertical momentum is not changed, and v is the velocity of the ball before collision, then it would seem to me the vertical impulse would be 2 m v S i n 30 = m v 2mvSin30 = mv .

Kenny Duran - 3 years, 8 months ago

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You are correct about the vertical impulse. See my response to Seb Wilkes, below.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 8 months ago

The idea that the vertical impulse is the same as in the case of a point ball is not obvious: I understand it's only an approximation, right?

Eric Lebigot - 3 years, 7 months ago

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You are right. In the text I stated: "Assume that the collision is as elastic as possible." That leads to the approximation that the magnitude of the vertical component of the velocity is the same before and after the collision. In real collisions there is a loss of velocity in the vertical direction (due to the energy lost when the ball and the court is deformed during the collision), and this assumption does not hold.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 7 months ago
Daniel Roane
Sep 13, 2017

Hello All: Just subtract 15 (friction pct) from 100 to get 85 - 15 is the percent (%) loss of ball power. So the ball after the bounce has just 85% of original power. Then multiply 30 x .85 = 26.5.

30 x 0.85 = 25.5 not 26.5 as you claimed, and 25.5 is the wrong answer.

Karl Snowsill - 3 years, 9 months ago

This looks nice and simple, but that does not work. Try to do it with a larger coefficient of friction, and you will see that it will deviate seriously from the correct solution.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 9 months ago

I multiplied 30 by the friction .15 and subtracted that from 30 n it somehow worked

Kareem Adam - 3 years, 8 months ago

Could you please what your calculation represents?

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 8 months ago
Jim Pedid
Sep 11, 2017

Relevant wiki: Conservation of Momentum

An approximate answer is given by taking the horizontal component of velocity as-is, and multiplying the vertical component of the velocity by (1 - u); this gives a new vector cos(30) i + 0.85 * sin(30) j. tan(x) = 0.85 sin(30) / cos(30).

Although the numbers may come out close, I do not think the physics is correct. The change in the vertical component is related to the so-called "coefficient of restitution". That was assumed to be 1 in this problem. In reality for tennis balls the coefficient of friction can be as large as 0.4 - 0.9 and the coefficient of restitution is 0.8 - 0.9.

Laszlo Mihaly - 3 years, 9 months ago

I lIke this answer as it has simplicity and I actually learned something from it.

Karl Snowsill - 3 years, 9 months ago

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