A logic problem by Sunny Dhondkar

Logic Level 1

Question 1: Are both "yes" and "no" invalid answers to question 2?

Question 2: Is either "yes" or "no" a valid answer to question 1?

What is the answer to Question 2?

Note: Assume the standard laws of logic. If there are no consistent "yes"/"no" answers that satisfy this system, then this is an inconsistent scenario.

Yes No This is an inconsistent scenario

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

13 solutions

Sunny Dhondkar
Nov 16, 2017

This problem may firstly puzzle, but its answer is quite simple. The factor that makes it harder is the human tendency to make simple things look more complicated. I designed this problem myself, psychologically to make this question look like a paradox.

                     **Question 1**: Is Question 2 unanswerable?
                     **Ans**: No, it is answerable.

                     Question 2: Does question 1 have an answer?
                     Ans: Yes, question 1 has an answer

Hence, question 1 has an answer that question 2 is answerable.

So, the answer to question 2 is Yes .

Moderator note:

As this issue came up both in a report and on Facebook, I should mention here:

Suppose you want to interpret the second statement as "having yes or no at the same time". While there is such a thing as "inclusive or", and you could interpret the "or" as having the possibility of both, that doesn't exclude the other cases of having only one of the two be true.

To put it another way, you can interpret the statement as (#1 has YES + NO at the same time), (#1 has YES), (#1 has NO) all as making the statement #2 true; however, only one of those three needs to be true for the statement #2 to be true. The fact (#1 has YES + NO at the same time) doesn't work is irrelevant.

I should also mention "either" generally signals exclusive or.

Wow - that really made my head spin. I checked the third option, because alongside an argument like yours I couldn't see how to ignore this alternative idea. What if

Q1 has no valid answer.

The answer to Q2 is N o ! \boxed{No!}

Peter Macgregor - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Your scenario is inconsistent because if the answer to Q2 is “No”, then it has a valid answer. Hence the answer to Q1 would be “No”, (which contradicts your assumption that Q1 has no valid answer).

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Thanks for your comment Jeremy.

I agree my scenario is inconsistent - that is why I chose the third option in the answers!

I can see the force of the majority view, and having read the question more carefully I see that if there is a consistent assignment of 'yes' and 'no' we cannot say that the system is inconsistent.

But I still can't shake off a slight unease. Maybe I need 'validity' to be defined, and perhaps a distinction to be made between 'consistency' and 'truth'!

Maybe I'm growing stupider and this is one of those problems where some folk can get the solution and others just don't really see it.

Peter Macgregor - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@Peter Macgregor Those terms are defined in formal logic, check Wikipedia for a better explanation than I can give.

This is really a tough problem - I may have come up with a different logic flaw above. I KNOW if I run such a program in C++ it'll reach a logical deadlock, but whether that applies in formal logic? Not entirely sure.

Timothy James - 3 years, 6 months ago

@Peter Macgregor Let me see if I can clarify. Also happy to discuss further offline.

First of all, there’s some confusion over the word ‘inconsistent’.

In your scenario, you said, what if Q1 has no valid answer and the answer to Q2 is ‘no’? But even if this was correct, you should have chosen answer 2, not 3!

However, as I pointed out, your scenario need not be considered because it is inconsistent. It’s as if you asked, “But what if 7 is greater than 10?”. That would be an inconsistent assumption from which anything follows, but the question asks whether there IS a consistent solution!

Maybe this analogy will help. Suppose I write “x > 10” and ask you to either find a solution or tell me that this scenario is inconsistent. You seem to be saying, “But what if x = 7? Then the equation is false so the scenario is inconsistent.”

But you’ve misunderstood the problem. The question is not whether there are any inconsistent solutions, it’s whether there are any consistent ones!

To address your other question, a ‘valid’ answer simply means a true statement. If the question is “Is 7 > 10?”, then ‘yes’ is a false statement and hence an invalid answer, while ‘no’ is a true statement and hence a valid answer. Look at my solution below for examples of questions with no valid answer, and ones with multiple valid answers.

Moreover, I can help with your unease with ‘consistency’ vs ‘truth’. Individual statements are true or false. A collection of statements is inconsistent if together they imply something false. For example, x=7 and x=8 taken together are inconsistent. Each statement may be true or false, but if both are true then 7=8.

Let me know if this clarifies anything.

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago

This is a really stupid explanation for the given scenario. The solution you have given is perfect for your own scenario not for the given question the actual way is better explained by : Munem Sahariar and Blan Morrison a few comments below

UTKARSH JHA - 3 years, 6 months ago

Punctuation is everything. If there were no quotation marks on “yes” and “no” on question 2, then another conceivable interpretation would be: ‘Is (either yes or no) a valid answer to question 1?’ Making the puzzle indeterminate rather than inconsistent. Thankfully we are spared this syntactical imprecision.

Kent Snibson - 3 years, 6 months ago

The logic contains a self-reference error. You might think that because we start by asking question one, this allows us to answer question two with the validity of question one. Not so: Question one is indeterminate until question two is answered, but question two is indeterminate until question one is answered. Thus we have reached a deadlock.

In other words, the logic is invalid because no answer can be derived unless an answer already exists. The statement is inconsistent.

I had to think about this for a solid two minutes. Kudos for coming up with something so deceptively simple.

Timothy James - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

The order of answering is not relevant. For example, if I give the following equations:

x+2y = 10

y+1 = 2

it may seem that we can't "resolve" (1) until first addressing (2), but that just reflects a human preference for the order of simplification. The solution pair (8,1) solves both equations simultaneously. There is no such thing as "the order in which the solution satisfies the equations".

The one and only pair of answers which satisfies Sunny's original pair of questions is (no, yes), as many have shown. There are many answer pairs which do not satisfy the questions, because they are contradictory, but that's true of any non-trivial system of equations. For example, substituting x=7 and y=1 into the above equations leads to a contradiction. Therefore (7,1) is not a solution of that system.

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

I can write huge lines of math, but throw words in there and I'm toast. Thanks for the explanation.

Timothy James - 3 years, 6 months ago

I think your problem has an inconsistency in the construction of the phrases if we rely on the Boolean law. By the Boolean law:The given connective "and" expresses the idea of the 2 answers ("yes" and "no") happening together, on the other hand, the connective "or" expresses the idea that "yes" and "no" can happen in three ways ("yes" alone, "no alone, or both together). In your question 1 you only consider the gramatics by counting "yes" and "no" as two answers that can happen separately, against the correct logic. Follow my lead!

Q1. (Yes ( False ) ) and ( No ( True ) ) , so Q1 ( NO ) Q2. ( Yes ( False ) ) or ( No ( True ) ) , so Q2 ( YES )

Vinícius Rocha - 3 years, 6 months ago

You also have to show that answering Yes to Question 1 does not lead to No for Question 2. Otherwise the solution would be inconsistent.

Alex Li - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

That's not correct. If an equation has multiple solutions, that doesn't mean it's inconsistent. It is inconsistent if it has no solutions.

Your point is taken in that the question-asker may wish to add an answer choice like "The answer to Question 2 cannot be determined from the given information.", or "Either 'yes' or 'no'.".

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago

To the Challenge Master, I would dispute that 'either' generally signals exclusive or. In a mathematical context, it definitely never does — it is used as a left parenthesis. But even in casual use of the English language, if it does has a connotation, then it is one of equality or impartiality between the choices, as in "Either choice is fine.".

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago

Such a question is inconsistent within itself! A logic without the logic, and too artificial, a construction for its own purpose, it leads to nowhere!

A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 6 months ago

I think that it should be clarified in the question what the challenge master noted. It would been helpful.

Matt Hayward - 3 years, 6 months ago

I kind of guessed ad checked but used also a little bit of logical reasoning I think guess and check or logical reasoning can work both great. I wonder how this process should have worked because I didn't really understand it. I would rate this problem a 10 because I didn't really understand it. when I tried this problem, I didn't really know what to do so I guessed.

Lucia Tiberio - 3 years, 6 months ago

Yes the language clarification is a MUST and it has to be provided IN ADVANCE. Without it the problem's construction is deficient. But with it the degree of difficulty fades away. Speaking of language, there's a couple of terms that apply when when an author makes use of withheld pertinent information to deliberately add confusion to a question.

Jack Bowie - 3 years, 6 months ago

To Challenge Master

It's solver's job to find out if whether this is only an 'exclusive or' or can be an 'inclusive or' too. I agree with the first sentence of the comment of @Jeremy Weissmann .

Muhammad Rasel Parvej - 3 years, 6 months ago
Munem Shahriar
Dec 3, 2017

Question 1: Are both "yes" and "no" invalid answers to question 2?

Answer: No \color{#D61F06}\text{No} , it has a valid answer.

Question 2: Is either "yes" or "no" a valid answer to question 1?

Answer: Yes. \color{#20A900}\boxed{\text{Yes.}}

I disagree with the solution offered. The issue is philosophical, not logical. There cannot be a "yes" or "no" answer where the sentences do not say anything. The statements, in fact, are arbitrary, so the standard of "yes" or "no" (or"true" or "false") have no meaning. It is not that the sentences are "internally inconsistent," but that they are "gibberish."

Henry Solomon - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

But they are consistent, and they do have meaningful answers.

What if I write the following two questions on a math test:

Q1: Is 5+6 = 12?

Q2: Is the answer to Q1 'no'?

It's clear that the correct answers to these questions are (no,yes). Some question pairs don't have consistent answers, like:

Q1: Is the answer to Q2 'yes'?

Q2: Is the answer to Q1 'no'?

There is no way to answer these questions simultaneously with yes/no answers. Any combination of answers leads to a contradiction.

Finally:

Q1: Is the answer to Q1 'no'?

Q2: Does Q1 have a consistent answer?

Now Q1 does not have a consistent answer, but Q2 does, namely 'no'.

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago

Yeah I had similar feelings. I was trying to figure out how they were defining valid, because the way I was thinking of it, 'yes' and 'no' are both valid answers to any question, regardless of nature. Like 'what time is it?' 'Yes' is a valid answer, though it doesnt make any sense, is it something that is possible to respond with. I would've gotten the question right too had I just went with that train of thought, but I figured that the question wouldn't be asked that way if it were true.

I ended up reading the second question as 'Is (either yes or no) a valid answer to question one?' and answered No, because only one of those is a valid answer, the other one is invalid, while in reality, question 2 was just asking if question 1 was a yes or no question.

Brandon Smith - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

I think you may be overthinking the definition of ‘valid’. We’re not talking about ‘appropriate’, as in your example of answering ‘yes’ to the question “What time is it?”.

If my yes-no question is “Is X true?”, then the answer ‘yes’ is simply the assertion X, and ‘no’ is the assertion ¬X. An ‘invalid’ assertion or collection of assertions is just something that leads to a logical contradiction, like “This number is divisible by 4” and “This number is not divisible by 4”.

It’s not philosophical!

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago

The wording was decieving, i thought q2 was asking if both yes and no where valid answers to question 1

Shawn Brown - 3 years, 6 months ago

Q1 = No, there is an answer (we agree here)

Q2: Is either "yes" or "no" valid to Q1? (We disagree here)

No, "yes" is an acceptable answer but "no" is not. Therefore it cannot be either and the answer to

Q2 = No.

Devin Elliot - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Yes, it's not clear why the author didn't just write Q2 as he did in his answer: "Does Question 1 have an answer?".

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago

Yeah I’m still trying to figure this out but I agree with this. Or at least this is how I think I thought about it.

maxgud . - 3 years, 6 months ago

Yes OR No. not BOTH. No is not an acceptable answer for question 2 Yes is an acceptable answer for question 2. So, Q1 is No, and Q2 is Yes.

Christian Bezerra - 3 years, 6 months ago
Blan Morrison
Dec 3, 2017

Using the logic of a multiple choice question, we can ignore question 1. If the answer to question 2 is "no," then that means there is no valid answer to this problem at all. Therefore, that means that the answers "No" and "This is an inconsistent scenario" are the same answer. Since there can only be one answer, that leaves us with the only possible solution being "Yes."

This strategy can be very helpful on standardized tests on any subject.

The question 2 said, either ‘yes’ or ‘no’ a valid answer. That’s a exclusive OR (EXOR), in other words means that if the answer is yes implies that or ‘yes’ is an invalid answer (is not) or ‘no’ is an invalid answer (neither) so it has to be NO the answer to question 2, because both answer are valid but only one is correct.

Flavio Benelli - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Normally we write exclusive OR as XOR, not EXOR

CHIN KEE HAW - 3 years, 5 months ago

As long as there is hope for consistency , we can't claim inconsistency .

Saying 'Yes' to Question- 1 1 leads to inconsistency. Because, saying 'Yes' to Q- 1 1 is granting that both 'Yes' and 'No' are invalid answers to Q- 2 2 . But both 'Yes' and 'No' cannot be invalid at the same time. So, for the sake of hope of consistency , we have to answer Question- 1 with No \text{we have to answer Question-}1 \text{ with} \boxed{\text{No}} .

Similarly, saying 'No' to Question- 2 2 leads to inconsistency. Because, saying 'No' to Q- 2 2 is granting that none of 'Yes' and 'No' is valid answer to Q- 1 1 . But at least and exactly one of 'Yes' and 'No' has to be valid at any given time. So, for the sake of hope of consistency , we have to answer Question- 2 with Yes \text{we have to answer Question-}2 \text{ with} \boxed{\text{Yes}} .

So, so far, the only hope for consistency is: saying 'No' to Question- 1 1 and saying 'Yes' to Question- 2 2 .

The last thing we have to be sure about is: saying 'No' to Question- 1 1 doesn't contradict with saying 'Yes' to Question- 2 2 . The fact that the Question- 2 2 is satisfied with whatever is used to answer Question- 1 1 as long as that 'whatever' is either 'Yes' or 'No' ensures us that there is no chance of inconsistency. So, our hope is rewarded.

Therefore, the answer is 'Yes' to Question- 2 2 .

"But both 'Yes' and 'No' cannot be invalid at the same time." Huh? Of course they can! Why in the world would you say something like that in a tone of certainity?!

Gil Costa - 3 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Because I didn't think that someone in this world would miss the first sentence of my solution with that certainty.

Muhammad Rasel Parvej - 3 years, 6 months ago

This question, when looked upon carefully, is a very simple one. What confuses is their framing of the questions. The first question asks if yes or no is a valid solution for question 2, while question 2 asks if either yes or no are possible answers for question 1. Since question 1 does not ask for a definite answer, yes or no, both are possible answers. Hence the answer for the second question is YES

Ferrous Will
Dec 7, 2017

Brute force/comprehensive solution:

Case 1:

A: Assume the answer to the second question to be YES

A>B: That means either"YES" or "NO" is a valid answer to question one

Case 1-1: Following statement B, assume the answer to the first question to be YES

> A>B>C: This means both "YES" and "NO" are invalid answers to the second question

>> STATEMENTS A AND C CONTRADICTS, proceed to case 1-2

Case 1-2: Following statement B, assume the answer to the first question to be NO

> A>B>D: This means either "YES" or "NO" is a valid answer to the second question

>> Coherent solution, no contradictions among statements A B and D, therefore "Yes" is a sufficient answer to the second question, proceed to case 2

Case 2:

E: Assume the answer to the second question to be NO

E>F: That means neither "yes" nor "no" are valid answers to question one, meaning the only answer to question one is that it has no valid answer

E>G: However, assuming the answer to the second question to be NO means the answer to the first question should be YES

> STATEMENTS F AND G CONTRADICTS, AS BOTH STATEMENTS STEM FROM STATEMENT E, STATEMENT E IS FALSE

>> "No" is not an acceptable answer to the second question,, proceed to case 3

Case 3:

H: Assume the second question has no valid answer

H>I: This means the first question's answer would be YES

H>I>J: However, this means the answer to the second question should be YES

> STATEMENTS H AND J CONTRADICTS, AS STATEMENT J STEMS FROM STATEMENT H, STATEMENT H is false

Conclusion: The answer to the second question simply has to be "Yes".

Andy Hayes
Dec 6, 2017

The answer to the 1st question must be "No," otherwise there is no way to answer question 2. Then, because the answer to question 1 is "No," the answer to question 2 is "Yes."

Alternatively, I converted this logic problem to a Boolean Algebra one i.e

  1. Let A = "Yes" = True
  2. Let B = "No" = False

Then:

Q1 = True <=> Invalid ( Yes and No ) = True <=> ! ( A && B) = True

From Boolean Algebra:

!True = False <=> !A = B <=> B = !A

So, to our solution:

Q2 = Yes or No <=> Q2 = A || B <=> Q2 = !B || !A <=> Q2 = !(B && A) <=> Q2 = Q1 <=> Q2 = True

A Boolean Algebra approach may be possible, but I don’t think what you’ve written here is correct. The only consistent answer to Q1 is ‘no’.

Jeremy Weissmann - 3 years, 6 months ago
Jeremy Weissmann
Dec 5, 2017

For brevity, let’s call a yes-no question unanswerable if neither answer is consistent, and answerable if at least one answer is consistent.

For example:

Is it false that the answer to this question is ‘yes’?

is unanswerable, while:

Is the answer to this question ‘yes’?

is answerable (with either answer).


Applying to the question at hand:

Q1: Is Q2 unanswerable?

Q2: Is Q1 answerable?

If we assume that both questions are answerable, then by definition the answer to Q1 must be ‘no’, and the answer to Q2 must be ‘yes’.

Conversely, if the answers are ‘no’ and ‘yes’ respectively, then we conclude from the meaning of the questions that Q2 is answerable and Q1 is answerable.

Hence we have shown that the questions are answerable if and only if the answers are ‘no’ and ‘yes’, respectively.

Draw an and logic table Q1: T and F = F.
T and T = T F and F = F F and T = F Do the same for Q2: Then realise that both Qs wants T and F When you do this it will seem like the answer is wrong however, the questions are reversed make q1 q2 and q2 q1 Hence it is true

Daniel Kim
Dec 8, 2017

I’ve used discrete mathematics for this problem. Let question 1 be p and question 2 be q. p is false because q allows both parameters to be an answer. Since p implies q and p is false, it must be true.

S Le
Dec 6, 2017

Answer one question: for question 1 say yes. Then that means question 2 works. So it is consistent. I don't know how right I am but yeah

Chuck Dudley
Dec 6, 2017

“Valid” <> (“true” OR “false”) “Valid” = (“Yes” OR “No”)

0 pending reports

×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...