a , b , c , and d are positive integers such that a b = c d .
Can a + b + c + d be a prime number?
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Impressive!
Misunderstood question ....concatenation as opposed to product
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This answer is correct. Why couldn't I upvote?
Clever solution! I do find it odd that this question would qualify as a 'basic' one.
Ah so [(a+c)/c] [(b+c)/c] HAS to be an integer , and c can't be a prime, but it has to be u v , because (a+c) and (b+c) are integers and their product has to be divisible by c? Can you explain more why this is so? Can't c be a prime and their product be 12 times c or something? What's the proof I'm missing?
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Since c ( a + c ) ( b + c ) = a + b + c + d is an integer, c must divide ( a + c ) ( b + c ) . Let u be the highest common factor of c and a + c . Then u divides a + c and we must be able to write c = u v for some integer v . But then v divides ( a + c ) ( b + c ) and v and a + c are coprime, which means that v divides b + c .
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How do we know that c and a+c have a common factor? If (b+c)/c=2 for instance then our integer becomes (a+c)2 and we don't need (a+c)/c to be an integer or have a common factor do we?
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@Komninos Maraslidis – (a+c) and c can have 1 as the highest common factor. You are right, in your example, you don't need (a+c)/c to be an integer.
(a+c)(b+c)/(uv) = [(a+c)/u] x [(b+c)/v]
When v = c in your case, u = 1, so (a+c) is an integer.
@Komninos Maraslidis – The highest common factor could be 1 .
But 10=10 And 1+0+1+0=2 is prime
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a b here means the product of a and b , not the concatenation of a and b . While we are at it, 0 is not a positive integer.
10 = 2 × 5
⇒ 2 × 5 = 2 × 5
⇒ 2 + 5 + 2 + 5 = 14 which is not a prime number . As Mark Hennings said a b is the product of a and b and not concatenation of a and b .
I think that u and v are defined wrongly. If (a+b+c+d) is prime and is equal (a+c)(b+c)/c then either (a+c) or (b+c) has to be a multiplication of that prime. This way u and v does not make sense. Either way (a+c) or (b+c) cannot be equal a multiplication of a+b+c+d, so it is not prime.
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There are two ways of arguing this. One way is the way I have done it. The second is to observe that the supposed prime a + b + c + d must divide one of a + c and b + c . Both arguments reach the conclusion that a + b + c + d cannot be prime.
i was hoping you'd say, since d = ab|c then either c divides a or b or both and from thereon it is easier to work with
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You can only say that if c is prime. If you rewrite by equation to read c = a + b + c + d ( a + c ) ( b + c ) , then your argument can be used (if you assume that a + b + c + d is prime, you obtain a contradiction). That is Jason Dyer's proof. My proof is parallel, but equivalent.
This is a version of the proof Sathvik Acharya mentions, which I find to be the easiest to visualize. Our general strategy will be to have an area with one side of a + b + c + d that we can rearrange into a new area, which we can use to form a contradiction when assuming a + b + c + d is prime.
First, let's visually represent a + b + c + d , but slightly out of order as a + c + d + b (just to make a later step easier to visualize).
We want to turn this into an area that we can get factors from. Any of the four integers in the sum work, let's go with a :
Now, we're going to make a 2 by 2 box. We can turn and move the a d side to fit into the bottom left. a b is equivalent to c d so we can write that area as the lower right corner.
So we've proven that a ( a + b + c + d ) = ( a + c ) ( a + d ) . This also means the integer a is a + b + c + d ( a + c ) ( a + d ) .
Suppose a + b + c + d is prime. Since a is an integer, a + b + c + d must divide evenly into either ( a + c ) or ( a + d ) ; however, a + b + c + d is larger than both numbers, so this is a contradiction. Hence a + b + c + d must not be prime.
This assumes that all integers are non-zero though. In the case that: a=1, b=0, c=1, d=0; you get ab=cd=1, and a+b+c+d=2 which is prime.
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Or does "positive" mean non-zero in this context?
When a = c = 1 and b = d = 0 how can you get ab = cd as 1 ?
0 × 1 = 0 . So ab = cd = 0
How can 3 be equal to 5. It can be proved mathematically though. But the question is how and why?
This solution is based off of @Ram Mohith 's idea, taken to completion.
Let r be a rational number such that a = r c . Since a b = c d , we get d = r b . Now, we find a + b + c + d by substituting in these values for a , d :
a + b + c + d = r c + b + c + r b = ( b + c ) ( 1 + r ) .
Write r = r 2 r 1 , where r 1 , r 2 are positive integers such that g cd ( r 1 , r 2 ) = 1 . (Note that if r is an integer, r 2 = 1 . ) Substituting in this for r yields
a + b + c + d = ( b + c ) ( 1 + r 2 r 1 ) = r 2 b + c ( r 1 + r 2 ) .
We must have r 2 ∣ b , c , since r c and r b are integers. Thus, r 2 ∣ b + c , and furthermore, r 2 < b + c due to the divisibility, so r 2 b + c > 1 . This means that a + b + c + d is always the product of two integers greater than 1, so it cannot be prime. ■
Thanks My solution helped you a lot I think
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Du bist ein spast
Interesting. The conditions are: 1 ) a, b, c, d are positive integers 2) ab = cd
The question is can a + b + c + d be a prime number?
So if a = 1, b = 6 and c = 2 and d = 3, the first condition is met. 1 x 6 = 2 x 3, so the second condition is met.
1 + 6 + 2 + 3 = 13 and 13 is a prime number.
I contend that within the parameters given, the answer should actually be yes.
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But 1 + 6 + 2 + 3 = 12 . You didn't check that .
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Doh!!! Ok, there is reason I suck at math. Thx for pointing this out.
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@Robert Imperio – Its OK !!! Everybody do mistakes and even I too . I wrote 18 months (instead of 30) for 2 and half years in my maths 10 class board exam and I lost the hundred mark .
Mathematics is a brainy subject. I can appreciate but not understand
I got the same solution as Ram Mohith, but now i understand why it was incorrect. I just want to ask a question; how can I know my proof is valid. I know in my solution i assumed that r is an integer, so I guess I shouldnt assume anything. But is there anything else that would help me.
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But doing it in by grouping of terms and assuming that r is an integer,it is necessary to prove that r is an integer!!
For a+b+c+d=p to be prime, p should be odd as it can't be 2(we can verify all cases).
For p to be odd either one or three of a,b,c,d should be odd and others to be even. And ab=cd cannot be satisfied with that, as one side will be odd and other will be even.
So p can't be prime.
30x10=3x100 then 30+10+3+100 = 143 so not even
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My bad. Thanks for pointing out the mistake.
both sides are odds..
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If both ab and cd are odd, they 2 is a factor of neither a, b, c or d and they are all odd. Hence a+b+c+d is even, because adding two odd numbers yields an even result.
counterexample: 6x4 = 8x3 6+4+8+3 = 21 which is odd.
It is given that ab = cd
So , c a = b d
Let , c a = b d = k (here k is some constant )
Then , a = ck and d = bk
Now , we have to find the value of a + b+ c + d . So now we will substitute the value of a and c in it .
a + b + c + d = ck + b + c + bk
b + bk + c +ck = b(1 + k) + c(1 + k)
(b + c)(1 + k)
So, we come to know that (a + b + c + d) can be written as product of two numbers (b + c) and (1 + k) out of these two at least one will be an integer .
Therefore we conclude a + b + c + d is not a prime number as it can be written as product of two numbers out of which at least one will be an integer .
Just a reminder (mentioned in this solution) that Steven Yuan's solution inspired by this one avoids the error contained here.
The error is that while k is set as possibly a non-integer, the last part requires k itself to be an integer (we can't assume ( b + c ) is an integer otherwise).
You seem to be assuming that k is an integer, which is not necessarily true.
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No k is some constant
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Yes, but to say that a + b + c + d = ( b + c ) ( 1 + k ) does not prevent a + b + c + d being prime, since b + c is no longer a factor of a + b + c + d , which is the point of your argument. For example, we could have k = 3 2 and 5 = 3 ( 1 + k ) , but 5 is prime.
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@Mark Hennings – We still have (b +c) is a factor even we consider (1 + k) or not . So now we will not consider (1 + k) . Hence, there are three factors for a + b + c + d . They are 1 , (b+c) and (a + b + c +d) . So , it is not a prime as it has three factors .
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@Ram Mohith – No. If 1 + k is not an integer, we cannot deduce that b + c is a factor.
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@Mark Hennings – But how ? Suppose we take example as 25 12.5 x 2 = 25 So even if 12.5 is not an integer we still have 2 as factor of 25 .
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@Ram Mohith – But 2 is not a factor of 2 5 . Factors are integers!
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@Mark Hennings – OK Then what changes do you think i should make in the problem .
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@Ram Mohith – Look at the other proofs. Steven adjusted your argument to make it work. I and Sathvik have slightly different approaches.
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@Mark Hennings – I am able to understand your solution more . But how do you get both u a + c and v b + c are exactly integers .
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@Ram Mohith – Let u be the HCF of c and a + c . Then u divides a + c and we can write c = u v where v divides b + c .
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@Ram Mohith – 2 is not a factor of 25
because 2 doesn't go evenly into 25 without leaving a remainder.
I think in most of the cases k will be an integer because if ab = cd then b d and c a will be integers .
Examples : 1 × 6 = 2 × 3 . Then k = 2 6 = 1 3
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How about 4 × 6 = 3 × 8 , with neither 6 8 nor 4 3 being an integer?
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@Mark Hennings – Whatever may be 4 + 6 + 3 + 8 = 21 which is not a prime number .
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@Ram Mohith – I know it cannot be a prime number. The point is that your argument does not work, because it mistakenly assumes that 1 + k must be a factor. While it may often be, it does not have to be, and that puts a flaw in your argument. We have already discussed this at some length in the comment below this one.
You have used absolute mathematical knowledge and common sense which I think a lot of solution lack 👏.
A flaw in this proof is that you said that "k is some constant whether integer or real number" this means that (1 + k) is also only a real number, not necessarily an integer. Thus it is not true that (b + c) and (1 + k) are always factors of a + b + c + d.
beautiful solution. very clear and thoughtful and easy to understand and accurate. just one suggestion though: use latex
As Mark Hennings has stated many times, this solution is incomplete because it assumes that k is a positive integer, but we cannot make that assumption right away. I'm not sure why people like this solution so much despite having this flaw.
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... and your corrected version of this proof has got lost in the crossfire...
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I wrote my solution till where my knowledge can take me . And people are liking this solution till where there mind can take . Bagavad Gita says that "Nobody in this world can judge anything why it happens and for what it happens . Only God can judge it ." I accept that there is mistake in my proof . But I was not taught these higher concepts . You all are elder to me and have mastered these concepts . So you can write the solution 100 % correct . I wrote my solution till where I have learned in my school and people are liking it . What can I do for it !!!!!
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@Ram Mohith – I am not sure that the Gita was talking about mathematical proof, which is capable of objective assessment. You could edit your "proof" to make it correct.
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@Mark Hennings – I know I could edit my proof but first I should learn the concepts . Without knowing anything how can I change it .
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@Ram Mohith – How about adding a comment at the start of the proof that you know that this proof is not correct, and referring those interested to Steven's proof, which gives a correct version? Otherwise you are misleading people who read it.
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@Mark Hennings – I have done it . Now Happy .
@Mark Hennings – From 47 upvotes I am brought down to 12 upvotes . Now all are happy (expect me) so please do not again comment on my solution saying my solution is wrong . I know it is wrong but please do not make me sad by telling it repeatedly .
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@Ram Mohith – Don't worry too much about the upvotes. It's more important that you understand what went wrong in your solution and how you can fix it. Also, don't give up on writing solutions; in fact, keep learning solution-writing strategies , and practice writing solutions whenever you can. I believe in you! ⌣ ¨
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@Steven Yuan – Thank you . I am not worrying too much about upvotes . But little sadness will be there when someone is brought down when he is at a peak .
@Ram Mohith – I am sorry about the upvotes, but don't worry too much about those - the important thing is to keep on trying/learning.
You and I had discussed your solution almost two weeks ago, and had gone through all these points, which you seemed to appreciate. Earlier this week you raised the whole discussion again, so I wanted to make sure you realized where your proof needed to improve.
Keep on having a go at writing solutions, and you will get better!
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@Mark Hennings – Thank you .
@Mark Hennings – Monday night when I saw this question I am amazed to that I have 17 upvotes . In Tuesday morning I was surprised to see that I have 33 upvotes . As a teenager I desired to reach 50 . But I was shocked to see Wednesday morning that I only have 12 upvotes to this solution . I think you will agree that a teenager in my place will do like this and will be sad seeing the sudden fall .That's the only reason and nothing about the solution .
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@Ram Mohith – What is clear is that people like the way you write solutions - that's why they upvoted it. If you write a solution which is correct, and post it, you can hope to get plenty of upvotes next time. Keep on trying!
Amazing! 10/10 explanation. You just received a huge round of applause.
This solution is not correct, as pointed by other readers. Here is a number example to show this: 15x36 = 10x54 15+36+10+54 = 115 Possible (b+c) are 51, 25, 69, 46, 90, 64 You see the sum 115 doesn't have any factor in the form of (b+c).
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But (a + b + c + d) = (b +c)(1 + k) . We can prove this :
c a = b d = 3 6 5 4 = k = 1 0 1 5 = 2 3
Now (b + c) = 36 = 10 = 46
⇒ (b + c)(1 + k) = 4 6 × ( 1 + 2 3 ) = 4 6 × 2 5 = 1 1 5
So , now we can say that 115 can be written as a product of 2 numbers out of which at least one is an integer . So , (a + b + c + d) is not a prime number .
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Yet again you are missing the point. It is certainly true that a + b + c + d is not a prime number, and so 1 1 5 is not prime. The problem with your proof is that you are using the identity 1 1 5 = 4 6 × 2 5 to say that 1 1 5 is not prime (you are claiming that b + c = 4 6 is a factor of 1 1 5 , which it is not).
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@Mark Hennings – I am just saying it as product of two numbers .
A number, as a product of two numbers out of which at least one is an integer, doesn't have to be a prime. This is the weak link in your solution.
6 x (17/6) = 17, but the number 17 is a prime.
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@Junjun Mao – 4 x (9/4) = 9 , 9 is not a prime number .
If a,b,c,d are positive integers, then isn't it necessary that b+c is also integer and ur solution correct?? a+b+c+d =(b+c)(1+k) And (b+c) is integer so it is a factor of (a+b+c+d) and it isn't prime
Pls tell if I am wrong.
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(b+c) is an integer but k doesn't have to be integer. You can't really call (b+c) a factor if another number is not an integer.
Yes (b + c) will be an integer
Lemma: If x , y are positive integers such that m ∣ x y and m > x , y , then m is composite.
Proof: Assume to the contrary that m is prime. Clearly m cannot divide x or y and the condition m ∣ x y is not satisfied. This contradiction leads us to the conclusion that m is prime.
Solution: Observe that a ( a + b + c + d ) = a 2 + a b + a c + a d = a 2 + c d + a c + a d = ( a + c ) ( a + d ) . Hence, a ( a + b + c + d ) = ( a + c ) ( a + d ) ⟹ a + b + c + d ∣ ( a + c ) ( a + d ) . Since a + b + c + d > ( ( a + c ) , ( a + d ) ) from the above lemma we get a + b + c + d is always composite
What does m|xy mean ?
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it means m is divisible by the product of x and y
if ab = cd then if a + b + c + d should be a even number which is not prime number because it is like having 1 + 4 = 2 + 3 and adding two equal numbers will add up to a even number
ab=a+b? It's a product not sum you are confused.
30x10=3x100 then 30+10+3+100 = 143 so not even.
M=a+b+c+d>=4, if M is a prime number, M need to be an odd number So there two combinations for a, b, c, d. 1)three odd number and one even number, 2) one odd number and three even number. But! How could such two combinations satisfy the equation ab=cd?
9 is odd, 9 = 1+4=2+2 yet 1 4=2 2.
For that, we'll need an odd amount of odd numbers, which is impossible if we still want to get ab = cd
No it is not for example 1x4=2x2 and 1+4+2+2 is odd because has only one odd number (1).
if a b = c d , there always exists integers x , y , z , t , such that a = x y , b = z t , c = x z , d = y t so a + b + c + d = x y + z t + x z + y t = ( x + t ) ( y + z ) which cannot be prime. we can prove that x , y , z , t exist as follows: x = g cd ( a , c ) , y = g cd ( a , c ) a , z = g cd ( a , c ) c , t = a d ⋅ g cd ( a , c ) . It is easy to verify that these are all integers and they satisfy above equalities.
ab=cd means if a&b both are odd then c&d both must be odd i. e the sum is a even number and therefore the given sum is not a prime number.
if a&b both are even then c&d both must be even i. e the sum is a even number and therefore the given sum is not a prime number.
How can 3 be equal to 5. It can be proved mathematically though. But the question is how and why?
Let p = a + b + c + d be prime. WLOG for ab and cd, we can write:
( a + b ) 2 = a 2 + 2 a b + b 2
2 a b = ( a + b ) 2 − a 2 − b 2
We now square the expression a+b+c+d:
( a + b + c + d ) 2
a 2 + b 2 + c 2 + d 2 + 2 ( a b + a c + a d + b c + b d + c d )
For the latter part of the expression, we replace the 2ab and 2cd terms with our expressions above:
a 2 − a 2 + b 2 − b 2 + c 2 − c 2 + d 2 − d 2 + ( a + b ) 2 + ( c + d ) 2 + 2 ( a c + a d + b c + b d )
We simply and factor the last term by grouping:
( a + b ) 2 + ( c + d ) 2 + 2 ( a + b ) ( c + d )
[ ( a + b ) 2 + ( c + d ) 2 ] 2
This is our expression the square of our prime number, or p 2 = ( a + b + c + d ) 2 . So we can write:
p = a + b + c + d = ( a + b ) 2 + ( c + d ) 2
By the Fermat's Theorem, the number a + b + c + d must also equal some square interger for positive intergers a,b,c,d. Notice, if a + b + c + d is not an interger, then we have proof by contradiction. Therefore, a+b+c+d cannot be prime.
Q.E.D.
The last step is not right ("must also equal some square integer"). What you are referring to are the Pythagorean triples, like numbers 3, 4,5 : 3^2+4^2=5^2. But these are rare triples. As a counter example: 4^4+5^2=41=6.4^2 where 6.4 is a real number.
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I agree with what you are saying, however we are only looking at positive intergers a,b,c,d. So if a+b+c+d was not an intergers, it is proof by contradiction. I will add this in the proof though, because you are right.
a+b+c+d is always going to be an even number. Of the 4 variables either none of them are odd, 2 of them are odd, or all four of them are odd. Which means the odds will cancel out when you add them up.
Since all four values are given to be integers Their sum must be an integer and products of two or more of any of these values must be integer.
You can rewrite two of the summands in terms of the other summands.
One can give the summands a common denominator without changing the expression's value. Dividing by this common denominator still gives an expression that is an integer. Therefore the expression can never be prime.
let a=a 1*a 2 and b=b 1*b 2, than c*d must contain all of components of a and b. If we calculate all possibilities, there are most be common dividable integer without 1 and a+b+c+d itself.
a + b + c + d and a b = c d .
Let's choose b and d to simplify our thought process. b = n 1 , d = n 2 .
Using a n 1 = c n 2 we can quickly write our sum as c n 1 n 2 + n 2 + n 1 + c .
Simplify to ( n 1 + n 2 ) ( n 1 c + 1 )
n 1 ≥ 1 , n 2 ≥ 1 , and n 1 c + 1 > 1 from our restriction that all numbers be positive integers.
So, all that's important here is that our number will always be divisible by n 1 + n 2 ≥ 2 and therefore never prime.
A prime number can never be divisable by 2. If we have a+b+c+d = prime number, then if we divide by 2 like you would if ab=cd, then by definition the product cannot be a prime number.
For a + b + c + d to be prime it has to be greater than 2, which means it is an odd prime.
For a + b + c + d to be odd, one or three of the four numbers has to be even and the others has to be odd.
But than one side of the equation a b = c d has to be even and the other side has to be odd, which is impossible, therefore it can not be prime.
Assume the sum a + b + c + d is odd. Then the residue sets modulo-2 of a,b,c,d can only be { 0 , 0 , 0 , 1 } or { 0 , 1 , 1 , 1 } . (i.e. Either one summand is odd and all the others even, or one summand is even and all the others odd.)
Given the 2 residue sets above, there is no way to combine the elements such that a b ( m o d 2 ) = c d ( m o d 2 ) .
This contradicts our assumption that a + b + c + d was odd.
Therefore a + b + c + d must be even, and the only remaining prime value we need to consider is 2 . That cannot happen because we are given that a , b , c , d are all positive integers so their sum must be > = 4 .
Therefore a + b + c + d cannot be prime.
a=1, b=6, c=2, d=3 ab=cd 6=6 1+6+2+3=13 13 is a prime number............
So much for working.
It adds up to 12.
First start with a b = c d
Add b d to both sides:
a b + b d = c d + b d
Factor out the common factor:
b ( a + d ) = d ( c + b )
Solve for c + b :
d b ( a + d ) = c + b
Now, when we try to evaluate a + b + c + d , you see that you can plug in what we solved for:
a + d b ( a + d ) + d = ( 1 + d b ) ( a + d ) = ( d d + b ) ( a + d )
The only way this number can be prime, keeping in mind the conditions of the problem, is if d completely divides any of the 2 factors. This can only be done if it equals the terms, which isn't the case since both terms have a d in them, plus a positive integer. Thus, the sum is always composite given that a , b , c , and d are positive integers
If a + b + c + d is prime, it must be odd, since 2 cannot be written as the sum of four positive integers. That means that either three of a, b, c and d are odd, or three of them are even. In either case, one of ab and cd will be odd and the other will be even. But ab = cd. So the sum cannot be prime.
Let's rewrite
Then using the equation a b = c d we can derive a 1 + b 1 = c 1 + d 1 , a 2 + b 2 = c 2 + d 2 etc, or a 1 − c 1 = d 1 − b 1 , a 2 − c 2 = d 2 − b 2 etc
Next (for the sake of simplicity only factors of "2" and "3" are shown),
a + b + c + d = = ( 2 a 1 ∗ 3 a 2 ) + ( 2 b 1 ∗ 3 b 2 ) + ( 2 c 1 ∗ 3 c 2 ) + ( 2 d 1 ∗ 3 d 2 ) = = ( 2 c 1 ∗ 3 c 2 ) ( 1 + 2 a 1 − c 1 ∗ 3 a 2 − c 2 ) + ( 2 b 1 ∗ 3 b 2 ) ( 1 + 2 d 1 − b 1 ∗ 3 d 2 − b 2 )
Using equation above:
a + b + c + d = ( 1 + 2 a 1 − c 1 ∗ 3 a 2 − c 2 ) ( 2 c 1 ∗ 3 c 2 + 2 b 1 ∗ 3 b 2 )
Thus the sum of these 4 numbers is always equal to a multiplication (of numbers greater than "1") and cannot be a Prime
You don't need to factorize, then you can work whit the hole numbers and you will get the same solution as @Ram Mohith so with his same problem.
Then why does 1x6=2x3 become prime when adding them up?
If ab = cd, then both ab and cd must either be odd or even. In both cases, this requires the number of odd digits to equal 0, 2 or 4 (i.e. none of the numbers are odd, all the numbers are odd, or one variable from either side is odd). As an even number of odd digits always adds up to an even number, the sum of all the variables will always be divisible by 2, and therefore cannot be a prime number.
That's not true, same as I comented in Ruben Slechten solution.
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This is true. I made the misassumption that all four variables were discrete!
If a & b are both odd, then c & d both need to be odd. If at least one of a & b is even, then at least one of c & d is also even. So a+b+c+d is either a sum of 4 odd numbers (or) a sum of 2 odd and 2 even numbers (or) a sum of 4 even numbers. All of these possibilities end up with an even number for a+b+c+d. So a+b+c+d is even and hence not prime!
No. Same as Matt Lewis and Ruben Slechten.
ab=cd so a=c and b=c - If a,b,c and d are odd numbers, the sum would be even, because odd numbers gathered even times will result an even sum. If a,b,c and d are even numbers, the sum would be even too. Because the sum would be even, the sum could be divided by 2. - And if we would have 3 odd numbers and one even, the sum would be odd too, but it will can be divided in an odd number. sorry for my bad english
a=c, b=d? That's not true.
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Is it, take an exemple: 12=12, so 1=1 and 2=2.
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Writing d = c a b we see that a + b + c + d = a + b + c + c a b = c ( a + c ) ( b + c ) Thus we must be able to write c = u v where u , v are integers such that u divides a + c and v divides b + c . But a + c > c ≥ u and b + c > c ≥ v and so the integers m = u a + c and n = v b + c are both greater than 1 , with a + b + c + d = m n . Thus a + b + c + d is not prime.