Unwrap It Like A Box

Algebra Level 2

If f f is a continuous function and f ( x y ) = f ( x ) + f ( y ) f(xy)=f(x)+f(y) for all x , y R { 0 } x,y\in \mathbb{R-\{0\}} , find the value of f ( 8 ) f ( 2 ) \dfrac{f(8)}{f(2)} .

Bonus: Find the general form of f ( x ) f(x) if f ( 10 ) = 123456789 f(10) = 123456789 .


The answer is 3.

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4 solutions

Sam Bealing
Jul 1, 2016

Setting x = y = 2 x=y=2 gives

f ( 2 × 2 ) = f ( 2 ) + f ( 2 ) f ( 4 ) = 2 f ( 2 ) f(2 \times 2)=f(2)+f(2) \implies f(4)=2 f(2)

Setting x = 4 , y = 2 x=4,y=2 gives:

f ( 4 × 2 ) = f ( 4 ) + f ( 2 ) f ( 8 ) = f ( 4 ) + f ( 2 ) f(4 \times 2)=f(4)+f(2) \implies f(8)=f(4)+f(2)

Combing thus with the above result gives:

f ( 8 ) = 2 f ( 2 ) + f ( 2 ) = 3 f ( 2 ) f(8)=2f(2)+f(2)=3f(2)

f ( 8 ) f ( 2 ) = 3 f ( 2 ) f ( 2 ) = 3 \dfrac{f(8)}{f(2)}=\dfrac{3f(2)}{f(2)}=\boxed{\boxed{3}}


For a general solution , I think you can do the following:

Differentiate with respect to x x and y y to yield the following two equations:

y f ( x y ) = f ( x ) f ( x y ) = f ( x ) y x f ( x y ) = f ( y ) f ( x y ) = f ( y ) x \begin{aligned} y f'(xy) &=f'(x) \implies f'(xy)=\dfrac{f'(x)}{y}\\ x f'(xy)&= f'(y) \implies f'(xy)=\dfrac{f'(y)}{x} \end{aligned}

Combining the two results gives:

f ( y ) x = f ( x ) y x f ( x ) = y f ( y ) = k For some constant k \dfrac{f'(y)}{x}=\dfrac{f'(x)}{y} \implies x f'(x)=y f'(y)=k \quad \quad \text{For some constant k}

The result follows because x , y x,y can take any real values so hence x f ( x ) x f'(x) must be a constant.

x f ( x ) = k f ( x ) = k x f ( x ) = k ln x + c x f'(x)=k \implies f'(x)=\dfrac{k}{x} \implies f(x)=k \ln{x} + c

Putting this result back into the original equation gives:

k ln x y + c = k ln x + c + k ln y + c 2 c = c c = 0 k \ln{xy}+c=k \ln{x}+c+k \ln{y}+c \implies 2c=c \implies c=0

This means the general solution is f ( x ) = k ln x \boxed{\boxed{f(x)=k \ln{|x|}}} which can also be expressed in the form f ( x ) = log a x f(x)=\log_{a}{|x|} .

Did the same way... I couldn't find a way to find f(x) yet but it appears to be of the form log a x \log_a x where a 'a' can be fixed using condition on f ( 10 ) f(10) and the reason why answer is coming out to be a constant is because l o g 8 log 2 = 3 \dfrac{log 8}{\log 2}=3 irrespective of base( allowed one ). What say ?

Rishabh Jain - 4 years, 11 months ago

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I have shown a general form above in my solution.

Sam Bealing - 4 years, 11 months ago

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Well done...... (+1)... But could we assume f(x) to be differentiable ?

Rishabh Jain - 4 years, 11 months ago

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@Rishabh Jain I'm not sure. That's why I was a little bit uncertain with my solution.

Sam Bealing - 4 years, 11 months ago

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@Sam Bealing f ( x ) = k log a x f(x) =k \log_a x sounds possible, because it satisfies the property f ( x y ) = f ( x ) + f ( y ) f(xy)=f(x)+f(y) , but I don't think this is the answer, because the function has to be defined for all real values of x x and y y

Hung Woei Neoh - 4 years, 11 months ago

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@Hung Woei Neoh We can have f ( x ) = k log x f(x) = k \log \lvert x \rvert . It satisfies f ( x y ) = f ( x ) + f ( y ) f(xy) = f(x) + f(y) for all x , y R { 0 } x, y \in \mathbb{R} - \{0\}

Pranshu Gaba - 4 years, 11 months ago

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@Pranshu Gaba Well, there's this one teeny tiny value getting in our way though, but yeah, I did thought of that.

I've been wondering, is there any function that would satisfy this for all values inclusive of 0 0 ?

Hung Woei Neoh - 4 years, 11 months ago

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@Hung Woei Neoh I have been thinking about it too. The only function I could think of is the constant function, f ( x ) = 0 f(x) = 0 . But then, it does not satisfy f ( 10 ) = 123456789 f(10) = 123456789 .

I feel that no function exists that satisfies all the requirements, but I don't know how to prove it.

Pranshu Gaba - 4 years, 11 months ago

f ( x y ) = f ( x ) + f ( y ) Putting y = x f ( x x ) = f ( x ) + f ( x ) f ( x 2 ) = 2 f ( x ) Putting y = x 2 f ( x x 2 ) = f ( x ) + f ( x 2 ) f ( x 3 ) = 3 f ( x ) Putting x = 2 f ( 2 3 ) = 3 f ( 2 ) f ( 8 ) = 3 f ( 2 ) f ( 8 ) f ( 2 ) = 3 \begin{array}{lrl} & f(xy) & = f(x) + f(y) \\ \text{Putting }y = x & \implies f(x\cdot x) & = f(x) + f(x) \\ & f(x^2) & = 2f(x) \\ \text{Putting }y = x^2 & \implies f(x\cdot x^2) & = f(x) + f(x^2) \\ & f(x^3) & = 3f(x) \\ \text{Putting }x = 2 & \implies f(2^3) & = 3f(2) \\ & f(8) & = 3f(2) \\ & \implies \dfrac {f(8)}{f(2)} & = \boxed{3} \end{array}


Now, we note that:

f ( x 1 ) = f ( x ) + f ( 1 ) f ( 1 ) = 0 f ( x ) = f ( x ) f ( x 2 ) = 2 f ( x ) f ( x 3 ) = 3 f ( x ) . . . . . . f ( x n ) = n f ( x ) f ( x ) = log a x f ( 1 ) = log a 1 = 0 , f ( x n ) = log a x n = n log a x = n f ( x ) f ( 10 ) = 123456789 log a 10 = 123456789 log 10 a = 1 123456789 f ( x ) = log a x = log 10 x log 10 a f ( x ) = 123456789 log 10 x \begin{aligned} f(x\cdot 1) & = f(x) + f(1) \\ \implies f(1) & = 0 \\ f(x) & = f(x) \\ f(x^2) & = 2f(x) \\ f(x^3) & = 3f(x) \\ ... & \quad \ ... \\ \implies f(x^n) & = nf(x) \\ \color{#3D99F6}{\implies f(x)} & \color{#3D99F6}{= \log_a x \quad \small \implies f(1) = \log_a 1 = 0, \ f(x^n) = \log_a x^n = n \log_a x = nf(x)} \\ f(10) & = 123456789 \\ \implies \log_a 10 & = 123456789 \\ \log_{10} a & = \frac 1{123456789} \\ \implies f(x) & = \log_a x = \frac {\log_{10}x}{\log_{10}a} \\ \color{#3D99F6}{\implies f(x)} & \color{#3D99F6}{= 123456789 \log_{10} x} \end{aligned}

Hi, your f ( x ) f(x) does not work for non-positive values of x x

Hung Woei Neoh - 4 years, 11 months ago

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You can make it arbitrarily close to being continuous with a few minor tweaks. f(x)=123456789log( |x-a|+a) where a ~ 0.

M K - 4 years, 11 months ago

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Wouldn't it be easier to just use f ( x ) = k log a x f(x)=k\log_a |x| for this case? It is continuous for all values of x x except x = 0 x=0 . But then again, a report has been submitted stating that the problem has no answer if the functional equation is satisfied by x = 0 x=0

Hung Woei Neoh - 4 years, 11 months ago

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@Hung Woei Neoh Yes, it would, but then it wouldn't be continuous. Although simply using |x| provides more accurate answers, as with |x-a| +a, the value is only accurate when |x| > a. Either way, the question itself is invalid.

M K - 4 years, 11 months ago

Ah, a typo: f ( x 3 ) = 3 f ( x ) f(x^3) = 3f(x)

Hung Woei Neoh - 4 years, 11 months ago
Hung Woei Neoh
Jul 2, 2016

f ( 8 ) = f ( 4 × 2 ) = f ( 4 ) + f ( 2 ) = f ( 2 × 2 ) + f ( 2 ) = f ( 2 ) + f ( 2 ) + f ( 2 ) = 3 f ( 2 ) f(8)\\ =f(4\times2)\\ =f(4)+f(2)\\ =f(2\times 2)+f(2)\\ =f(2)+f(2)+f(2)\\ =3f(2)

Therefore, f ( 8 ) f ( 2 ) = 3 f ( 2 ) f ( 2 ) = 3 \dfrac{f(8)}{f(2)} = \dfrac{3f(2)}{f(2)} = \boxed{3}


Bonus question:

Notice that f ( x y ) = f ( x ) + f ( y ) f(xy)=f(x)+f(y) is the same as the logarithmic property log a x y = log a x + log a y \log_a xy = \log_a x+\log_a y

Therefore, we can say that

f ( x ) = k log a x f(x)=k\log_a x

However, note that this is only defined for positive real values of x x , that is, x > 0 x>0

To allow f ( x ) f(x) to be defined for negative numbers as well, we can add in the absolute value function:

f ( x ) = k log a x f(x)=k\log_a |x|

where k , a k,a are constants that satisfy a > 0 , a 1 a > 0,\;a \neq 1 and k log a 10 = 123456789 a 123456789 = 1 0 k k \log_a 10 = 123456789\implies a^{123456789} = 10^k . There are many possible ordered pairs of ( k , a ) (k,a) that satisfy this, and this function is defined for all real values x x except x = 0 x=0 , as required from the question

(Note: A better proof is provided in Sam's solution above)

Tarig Mergani
Jul 1, 2016

f(8)=f(4x2)=f(4)+f(2) ............... (1)

f(4)=f(2x2)=f(2)+f(2)=2f(4) ................ (2)

from (1) and (2) f(8)=3f(2) then f ( 8 ) f ( 2 ) \frac{f(8)}{f(2)} = 3 f ( 2 ) f ( 2 ) \frac{3*f(2)}{f(2)} = 3

Typo: 2 f ( 2 ) 2f(2) .......(2)

Hung Woei Neoh - 4 years, 11 months ago

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