Weird Roots

Algebra Level 3

If x x and y y are real numbers such that

( x 2 + 2013 x ) ( y 2 + 2013 y ) = 2013 , \left(\sqrt{x^{2} + 2013} - x \right)\left(\sqrt{y^{2} + 2013} - y \right)=2013,

then what is the value of x + y ? x + y?


The answer is 0.

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9 solutions

Solution:

Let's call, for speeding things up, that

x 2 + 2013 x = α \sqrt{x^2+2013}-x = \alpha .

It holds that:

α ( y 2 + 2013 y ) = 2013 y 2 + 2013 y = 2013 α \alpha(\sqrt{y^2+2013}-y) = 2013 \Rightarrow \sqrt{y^2+2013}-y = \frac{2013}{\alpha}

y 2 + 2013 = y + 2013 α y 2 + 2013 = y 2 + 4026 y α + ( 2013 α ) 2 \sqrt{y^2+2013} = y + \frac{2013}{ \alpha } \Rightarrow y^2 + 2013 = y^2 + \frac{4026y}{ \alpha } + (\frac{2013}{ \alpha }) ^2

1 = 2 y α + ( 2013 α 2 ) α 2 2013 2 α = y 1 = \frac{2y}{\alpha} + (\frac{2013}{\alpha^2}) \Rightarrow \frac {\alpha^2 - 2013}{2\alpha} = y .

Undoing the α \alpha substitution, we get:

y = x 2 + 2013 2 x x 2 + 2013 + x 2 2013 2 x 2 + 2013 2 x y = x ( 2 x 2 + 2013 2 x ) ( 2 x 2 + 2013 2 x ) y = x y = \frac {x^2+2013 - 2x\sqrt{x^2+2013} + x^2 - 2013}{2\sqrt{x^2+2013} - 2x} \Rightarrow y = \frac{-x(2\sqrt{x^2+2013}-2x)}{(2\sqrt{x^2+2013} - 2x)} \Rightarrow y = -x \Rightarrow

x + y = 0. \boxed{x + y = 0.}

Comments: What an amazing problem, Bogdan! Did you make it all by yourself?

Haha didn't know it was like that I just tried 0 because x and y were able to be cancelled and then comes the square root of 2013 multiplied by itself again will render 2013 haha.

Michael Bataller - 7 years, 5 months ago

Actually, another problem which was really similar to this one was on a maths competition I attended to.That is where I got the idea .I was thinking ... Can the problem be generalized and instead of 2013 we can plug some arbitrary other value?

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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I agree, this is a very cool problem and a very cool solution. It's a shame it can be "cheesed" by easily observing ( 0 , 0 ) (0,0) is a solution because of the repeated 2013 ’s \sqrt{2013}\text{'s} on the LHS.

Trevor B. - 7 years, 5 months ago

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Well, maybe you can say that x and y are nonzero

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

That's exactly how I did it ;)

minimario minimario - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Minimario Minimario I is proud of it now, Minimario :O

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago

By the way, the proof you posted was great!

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

Bogdan, could give me/us more information about the competition you went to?

For β R \beta \in \mathbb{R} , ( x 2 + β x ) ( y 2 + β y ) = β (\sqrt{x^2 + \beta} - x)(\sqrt{y^2 + \beta} - y) = \beta will always result in x + y = 0 x+y=0 .

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago

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The competition is called IMAS, which is short for International Mathematics Assessment for Schools.The first round consists of 25 problems for 75 minutes. The last problem of this year's first round for my age was the one this problem was inspired by. If you want any additional information, I think they have a website.

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

Great solution, though I suggest using \dfrac{a}{b} to show large fractions. It looks much clearer. E.g. a b c d e f 1 2 \dfrac{abc}{def - \dfrac{1}{2}} :)

Raj Magesh - 7 years, 5 months ago

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It becomes too big :O

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago

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Haha! I suppose it does when there're multiple fractions but if the numerator/denominator fits on one line each, it makes it easier to read. y = x 2 + 2013 2 x x 2 + 2013 + x 2 2013 2 x 2 + 2013 2 x y = \dfrac{x^{2}+2013-2x\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}+x^{2}-2013}{2\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}-2x} compared to y = x 2 + 2013 2 x x 2 + 2013 + x 2 2013 2 x 2 + 2013 2 x y = \frac{x^{2}+2013-2x\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}+x^{2}-2013}{2\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}-2x} . Or perhaps my eyesight is just pretty poor... 8-)

Raj Magesh - 7 years, 5 months ago

Wow, great proof

Muh. Amin Widyatama - 7 years, 5 months ago

awsome proof............

ashish bait - 7 years, 5 months ago

great

Avdhesh Singh Rana - 7 years, 5 months ago

wow

Rajan Malhotra - 7 years, 5 months ago

cool :o

Rifqi Khairul Anam - 7 years, 1 month ago

I just use diophantine equalities and get that x could be 1006 and y could be = -1006 which we got x= -y

jerome polin - 7 years, 5 months ago

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But couldn't also x = 123456789 x = 123456789 and y = 123456789 y = -123456789 ? My calculator says so.

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago

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Yes sir.. as long as x= -y we could enter any number of x or y

jerome polin - 7 years, 5 months ago

by observe the given equation we can say x=y,from this we can calculate as x=0

Krishna Badiginchala - 7 years, 5 months ago

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By observing what?

How did you get to it?

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago

or breakdown 2013 into 61*33 and compare you get x = 14 and y = -14 , hence x+y = 0

Piyush Agrawal - 7 years, 5 months ago

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What if instead of 2013 2013 , we had 123456789456123 123456789456123 ? How would you break it down?

What if we put up x = 7777777 x = 7777777 and y = 7777777 y = -7777777 ? Wouldn't it also be right?

EDIT: Thanks Bogdan! :D

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago

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No, it won't.Count the sevens :D

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 4 months ago

just break up the square roots and cancel the ones for the x^2 and y^2 then you are left with square of 2013 in both brackets multiply both of them you would get 2013 this suggests that 0 would be the most accurate answer

ash win - 7 years, 5 months ago

good ,but lengthy... i think as we can easily see that x=y=0 fits the bill, its better not to toil..

arkajyoti maity - 7 years, 5 months ago

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What if the problem stated precisely x y 0 x \neq y \neq 0 ?

What would you do?

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago
Prasun Biswas
Dec 28, 2013

( x 2 + 2013 x ) ( y 2 + 2013 y ) = 2013 (\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}-x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}-y)=2013 ........(i)

( x 2 + 2013 x ) ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) ( y 2 + 2013 y ) ( y 2 + 2013 + y ) ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) ( y 2 + 2013 + y ) = 2013 \implies \frac{(\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}-x)(\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}+x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}-y)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}+y)}{(\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}+x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}+y)}=2013

( x 2 + 2013 x 2 ) ( y 2 + 2013 y 2 ) ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) ( y 2 + 2013 + y ) = 2013 \implies \frac{(x^{2}+2013-x^{2})(y^{2}+2013-y^{2})}{(\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}+x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}+y)}=2013

2013 × 2013 ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) ( y 2 + 2013 + y ) = 2013 \implies \frac{2013 \times 2013}{(\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}+x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}+y)}=2013

( x 2 + 2013 + x ) ( y 2 + 2013 + y ) = 2013 \implies (\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}+x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}+y)=2013 .......(ii)

From the equations (i) and (ii), we get-----

( x 2 + 2013 x ) ( y 2 + 2013 y ) = ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) ( y 2 + 2013 + y ) (\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}-x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}-y) = (\sqrt{x^{2}+2013}+x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013}+y)

We see that x = 0 x=0 and y = 0 y=0 satisfy this equation, so x = 0 , y = 0 x=0,y=0

Now, x + y = 0 + 0 = 0 x+y=0+0=\boxed{0}

Something went wrong among your way!

x = y = 0 x=y=0 are not the only solutions. Try plugging in x = 1 x = 1 and y = 1 y = -1 , right from the start. Doesn't it stay true?

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago

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Yes, I didn't say that x = 0 x=0 and y = 0 y=0 are the only solutions. I just told that we can see that they are one of the solutions and so we can find x + y = 0 + 0 = 0 x+y=0+0=\boxed{0} . Even if you take x = 1 x=1 and y = ( 1 ) y=(-1) , then also we get, x + y = 1 + ( 1 ) = 1 1 = 0 x+y=1+(-1)=1-1=\boxed{0} .

Prasun Biswas - 7 years, 5 months ago

ooo ya.....gd gd...

syantaan mishra - 7 years, 5 months ago

Excellent explanation keep it up

RAGHU RAM - 7 years, 5 months ago
Bogdan Simeonov
Dec 26, 2013

Notice that when x=-y ,the equation holds. Thus, x + y = 0.If anyone could prove that x= -y are the only solutions, please inform me in the comments.

Assuming right from the start that x = y x = - y , we get that the expression is

( x 2 + 2013 + x ) ( x 2 + 2013 x ) = 2013 (\sqrt{x^2+2013}+x)(\sqrt{x^2+2013}-x) = 2013 ( x 2 + 2013 ) x 2 = 2013 2013 = 2013 \Rightarrow (x^2 +2013) - x^2 = 2013 \Rightarrow 2013 = 2013 .

This means x + y = 0 x + y = 0 will always be true, no matter what x x we choose (even COMPLEX values of x x !)

Guilherme Dela Corte - 7 years, 5 months ago

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This argument actually does not work because the logic must be different. The only thing proved is that if x + y = 0 x+y=0 then the identity holds. What is needed is the converse implication, and it is not logically equivalent.

Alexander Borisov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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Guilherme proved that x=-y upper in the comment section I think

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Bogdan Simeonov Yes, I see, thank you. So by " x + y = 0 x+y=0 will always be true no matter what x x we choose" Guilherme most probably just means "If x + y = 0 x+y=0 then the original identity will always be true no matter what x x we choose." This is certainly correct.

Alexander Borisov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Alexander Borisov Wait...I'm kinda confused...Didn't Guilherme prove that for every x we choose ,y=-x?

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Bogdan Simeonov I think he did so in the original post. And then here added a comment that this actually works for all pairs ( x , y ) (x,y) with x + y = 0. x+y=0.

Alexander Borisov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Alexander Borisov Nevertheless,x=-y are the only solutions,aren't they?

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Bogdan Simeonov Yes, definitely. George G. showed it best.

Alexander Borisov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@Alexander Borisov Thank you.

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

It's really simple. To save typing, assume f(x) is that sqrt function. Then (f(x)-x)(f(y)-y) = b (b=2013). Notice that (f(x)-x) (f(x)+x) = b. So f(x)+x = f(y) - y. Similarly, f(x)- x = f(y) + y. Adding the two together, we have f(x)=f(y), so x=-y.

George G - 7 years, 5 months ago

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f(x) = f(y)could also be equivalent to x=y,couldn't it?

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

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No. Subtract f(x)=f(y) from both sides of f(x)+x=f(y)-y implies that x=-y

George G - 7 years, 5 months ago

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@George G Oh, sorry

Bogdan Simeonov - 7 years, 5 months ago

( x 2 + 2013 x ) ( y 2 + 2013 y ) = 2013 (\sqrt{x^{2}+2013} - x)(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013} - y) = 2013

Multiplying by ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) (\sqrt{x^{2}+2013} + x) to both sides;

( x 2 + 2013 x 2 ) ( y 2 + 2013 y ) = 2013 ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) (x^{2} + 2013 - x^{2})(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013} - y) = 2013(\sqrt{x^{2}+2013} + x)

2013 ( y 2 + 2013 y ) = 2013 ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) 2013(\sqrt{y^{2}+2013} - y) = 2013(\sqrt{x^{2}+2013} + x)

Dividing by 2013 to both sides;

( y 2 + 2013 y ) = ( x 2 + 2013 + x ) (\sqrt{y^{2}+2013} - y) = (\sqrt{x^{2}+2013} + x)

We can now see that the equation is true for every x = y x=-y

So, x + y = x + ( x ) = 0 x+y = x + (-x) = \boxed{0}

Let, √(x^2+2013)-x=p. So we get, x^2+2013=(p+x)^2. => x=(2013-p^2)/p. Similarly, we can get y=(2013-q^2)/q. From here, if we add x and y, we get x+y=[2013(p+q)-pq(p+q)]/pq. As p.q=2013, x+y=0.

Abhishek Sanghai
Jan 5, 2014

since x and y can take any value..so assigning 0 to both

Gian Mark Pulgar
Jan 3, 2014

Divide both sides by (sqrt(x^2+2013)-x) and then multiply by (sqrt(y^2+2013)+y), you will get (y^2+2013-y^2)=((2013)(sqrt(y^2+2013)+y))/(sqrt(x^2+2013)-x). Combine like terms and divide both sides by 2013, you will get 1=(sqrt(y^2+2013)+y)/(sqrt(x^2+2013)-x). It follows that (sqrt(x^2+2013)-x)=(sqrt(y^2+2013)+y). Then substitute (sqrt(y^2+2013)+y) to the orginial equation. You will get y=0 and then x=0. The sum is 0.

Jai Sreenivasan
Jan 1, 2014

let the term containing x be a& let the term containing y be b as 2013 is a prime number either a or b must be 2013 &1 solving we get -2012=2x 2012=2y therefore x+y =0

Tommy Räjert
Dec 29, 2013

He doesn't say that[; x \neq y ;] so just make it as simple as possible and take [; (\sqrt {x^2+2013}-x)(\sqrt {y^2+2013}-y)=(\sqrt {x^2+2013}-x)(\sqrt {x^2+2013}-x)=2013 \rightarrow \sqrt{2013}=(\sqrt{x^2+2013}-x) \approx 44.9 ;] If we would take away the x^2 from our sqrt we would get the answer out of that part that we wanted, 44.9. the x^2 in [; \sqrt{x^2+2013}-x ;] is bigger than x because [; \sqrt{x^2+2013} \neq \sqrt{x^2}-\sqrt{2013} ;] so if we were to put an integer bigger than 1 as x we wouldn't get sqrt(2013) so [; (\sqrt{0^2+2013}-0)^2=2013 ;] so [; x=0 ;] and [; y=0 ;], [; x+y=0+0=0 ;] THE ANSWER IS [; 0 ;]!

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