When will you go away?

Consider a rod of length l l and mass m m resting against a smooth vertical wall and making an angle of θ \theta with the horizontal smooth floor.

The rod is released from rest, initially making an angle of 7 5 75^{\circ} with the horizontal. The rod falls and at some angle θ \theta it loses contact with the vertical wall. Find this θ \theta (in degrees).


The answer is 40.0870.

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1 solution

Mark Hennings
Aug 27, 2016

Set up a coordinate system with the origin at the meeting point of the wall and the floor. The endpoints A A and B B of the rod have coordinates ( 0 , sin θ ) (0,\ell\sin\theta) and ( cos θ , 0 ) (\ell\cos\theta,0) respectively, and hence have velocities v A = ( 0 cos θ θ ˙ ) v B = ( sin θ θ ˙ 0 ) \mathbf{v}_A \; = \; \left(\begin{array}{c} 0 \\ \ell\cos\theta \dot\theta \end{array} \right) \qquad \mathbf{v}_B \; = \; \left(\begin{array}{c} -\ell\sin\theta \dot\theta \\ 0 \end{array} \right) respectively. Thus the rod has kinetic energy T = 1 6 m [ v A 2 + v B 2 + v A v B ] = 1 6 m 2 θ ˙ 2 T \; = \; \tfrac16m\big[|\mathbf{v}_A|^2 + |\mathbf{v}_B|^2 + \mathbf{v}_A \cdot\mathbf{v}_B\big] \; = \; \tfrac16m\ell^2 \dot\theta^2 On the other hand, the potential energy of the rod is V = 1 2 m g sin θ V \; = \; \tfrac12mg\ell\sin\theta Apart from gravity, the only forces acting are the reaction forces X X and Y Y which, since the surfaces are smooth, act horizontally and vertically respectively. Consequently energy is conserved, so we have T + V = 1 2 m g sin θ 0 T + V \,=\, \tfrac12mg\ell\sin\theta_0 , where θ 0 = 7 5 \theta_0 = 75^\circ is the initial angle, and hence θ ˙ 2 = 3 g ( sin θ 0 sin θ ) \dot\theta^2 \; = \; \tfrac{3g}{\ell}(\sin\theta_0 - \sin\theta) which, on differentiating, gives θ ¨ = 3 g 2 cos θ \ddot{\theta} \; = \; -\tfrac{3g}{2\ell}\cos\theta The centre of mass G G of the rod has coordinates ( x , y ) = ( 1 2 cos θ , 1 2 sin θ ) (x,y) = \big(\tfrac12\ell\cos\theta,\tfrac12\ell\sin\theta\big) . Resolving forces horizontally, we see that X = m x ¨ = m [ 1 2 sin θ θ ¨ 1 2 cos θ θ ˙ 2 ] = 3 4 m g cos θ [ 3 sin θ 2 sin θ 0 ] X \; = \; m\ddot{x} \; = \; m\big[-\tfrac12\ell\sin\theta \ddot\theta - \tfrac12\ell\cos\theta \dot\theta^2\big] \; = \; \tfrac34mg\cos\theta\big[3\sin\theta - 2\sin\theta_0\big] Thus the rod loses contact with the wall when sin θ = 2 3 sin θ 0 \sin\theta = \tfrac23\sin\theta_0 , or when θ = 40.0870369 1 \theta = \boxed{40.08703691^\circ} .

Note that similar calculations show that Y = 1 4 m g + 3 4 m g sin θ ( 3 sin θ 2 sin θ 0 ) Y \; = \; \tfrac14mg + \tfrac34mg\sin\theta(3\sin\theta - 2\sin\theta_0) so that Y > 0 Y > 0 throughout the motion.

I think there is no answer because it never detaches from the wall.

Rizvi Chowdhury - 4 years, 9 months ago

How can X give the center of mass a velocity? It doesn't do any work on the object. Why can't you understand that part?

Rizvi Chowdhury - 4 years, 9 months ago

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A force acting on a rigid object has an effect on the centre of mass, even if it does not act directly at the centre of mass.

The reaction forces do no work. That is true, since each they act perpendicularly to the local direction of motion. That means that energy is conserved. It does not mean that the centre of mass of the rod does not move.

Mark Hennings - 4 years, 9 months ago

@Mark Hennings Do an experiment. Let a stick fall in mid-air while letting the stick's end touching the wall? What do you see? Compare the conditions with which the experiment was done and the one which you did in the ideal frictionless case. Also wonder when you ski, do you start rolling and why not?

Rizvi Chowdhury - 4 years, 8 months ago

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I am afraid that continuing this discussion is pointless. You do not seem to be willing to consider the equations I have written down. You don't like the answer, but I cannot help that.

Mark Hennings - 4 years, 8 months ago

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@Mark Hennings But we are in pursuit of a solution. It's not the matter of finding an answer but to really assess and peer-review what our calculations show. I am not here to criticize you not am I here to belittle what you have done. I am not perfect and that means I am as fallible to mistakes as any other ordinary human. Let's try to solve this problem together by sharing our knowledge. I am extremely sorry if I was being a annoying person. I ask you to bolster your argument by proving my opinions maybe wrong.

Rizvi Chowdhury - 4 years, 8 months ago

Hey I think I got another solution the second time I tried (I wasn't able to solve the first time) and since Brilliant does not allow to post your solution after you have already tried I thought I would post it in the comments. BTW great solution @Mark Hennings

So here it goes:

Suppose we consider an axis through the center of the rod perpendicular to the plane. I am not able to post a picture so please try to visualize, draw and take help from the above solution's digram. Now the center of the rod will also be the center of mass of the rod. I am abbreviating it as COM.

And also for the sake of convinience, I am taking the length of rod as 2 l 2l as it won't make any difference.

Let α \alpha be the angular acceleration of the of the rod wrt to axis through COM. Now it could be derived eisily that at any angle θ \theta the value will be as follows: α = 3 g cos θ 4 l \alpha = \frac{3g\cos\theta}{4l}

The prove for the above result is very simple, I can post it if you like but will not be able to do so here as I am already posting my solution in comments and it will be very difficult. Sorry again guys.

Now if ω \omega is angular velocity we have : ω d ω d θ = α \omega \frac{d\omega}{d\theta} = \alpha ω 2 = 5 π 12 θ 3 g cos θ 2 l d θ \omega^2 = \int_{\frac{5\pi}{12}}^{\theta} \frac{3g\cos\theta}{2l} d\theta ω = 3 g 2 l ( sin 5 π 12 sin θ ) \omega=\sqrt{\frac{3g}{2l}\left(\sin\frac{5\pi}{12} - \sin\theta \right)}

Clearly the velocity of the bottom end point (the end point touching the ground) will be ω l sin θ \omega l\sin\theta Now we see that ω l sin θ \omega l\sin\theta is a function that reaches a maxima so we can say that the rod will loose contact the moment the rod's bottom end point will reach its maximum ω l sin θ \omega l\sin\theta . The reason can be found intuitively :

For the rod to remain in contact of the wall, both the endpoints must behave like function that is the bottom end point must always have a velocity ω l sin θ \omega l\sin\theta and the top endpoint must have a velocity ω l cos θ \omega l\cos\theta where ω \omega is the function already described. But the irony is that after the bottom end point reaches its maximum velocity there will be no force to stop it so it will the time the rod will detach itself from the wall.

Now differentiating and equating to 0 0 we have, d d θ 3 g 2 l ( sin 5 π 12 sin θ ) sin θ = 0 \frac{d}{d\theta}\sqrt{\frac{3g}{2l}\left(\sin\frac{5\pi}{12} - \sin\theta \right)}\sin\theta = 0 Solving, sin θ = 2 3 sin 5 π 12 \sin\theta = \frac{2}{3} \sin\frac{5\pi}{12} θ = 40.0870369 1 \theta = \boxed{40.08703691^{\circ}}

Utkarsh Dwivedi - 4 years, 7 months ago

But why would B have a velocity? Think about it for a second. As the center of mass moves due to X being present, the horizontal velocity of B is equal and opposite to the vertical velocity of A. This is because of the Pythagoras Theorem. Moreover, the rod cannot have a horizontal velocity at the end of the day because there is no force to do work on it. The gravitational potential energy is changed to rotational energy.

Rizvi Chowdhury - 4 years, 9 months ago

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I am afraid that you are wrong on both counts.

My formulae above for v A v_A and v B v_B show straight away that the horizontal velocity of B is not equal to the vertical velocity of A. So long as X acts, the rod is being given a horizontal acceleration, and hence develops a horizontal speed.

If the rod did not leave the wall, then the motion would stop when θ \theta eventually reached the value of 0 0 . At this point (see my solution) B B would indeed be stationary (since sin θ = 0 \sin\theta = 0 then), which would mean that the centre of mass had no horizontal velocity component. But the action of X X throughout the motion gives the centre of mass a horizontal component of velocity.

Mark Hennings - 4 years, 9 months ago

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I agree with rizvi 's statement...the rod will not leave contact..as the gravitational p.e. is converted into rotational k.e. and there is no energy loss..as the surfaces are smooth and work done by normal reactions is zero.., please do explain it..

Rishu Jaar - 4 years, 8 months ago

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@Rishu Jaar But why should any of your statements ( that energy is conserved and the reaction forces do no work) mean that the rod does not leave contact? I point you back to my original proof, where I have used conservation of energy and the known movement pattern of the rod ( which automatically contains the process of interconversion between linear and rotational motion) to show that this behaviour can only continue for a while. The only way for the rod to stay in contact with the wall all the way to the ground would be if the contact force between the rod and the wall became attractive ( in my notation, X X would have to become negative).

Consider a marble of mass 1 1 sliding on a smooth circular track of radius r r , which is held in a vertical plane. If the particle is moving at the bottom of the track with speed 4 g r \sqrt{4gr} , then it has enough KE to convert to GPE to enable it to rise a height of 2 r 2r . Will the marble make it round, and loop the loop? The answer is "no". It will lose contact with the track and fall off, since the normal reaction between the track and the marble will become zero. To be able to loop the loop, the marble would have to have speed 5 g r \sqrt{5gr} at the bottom at least.This means that the marble would experience 6 g 6g of acceleration at the bottom, which is why(that is a dangerous level of acceleration) roller-coaster loops are not circular.

If the marble was swinging in a circle at the end of a light rod of length r r , the a speed at the bottom of 4 g r \sqrt{4gr} would be enough to get round, since the light rod could be in compression as well as tension.

In both of these scenarios (on a track or on a light pole) energy is conserved and the reaction forces do no work, but the outcomes are not the same. To understand the situation properly, you need to calculate the reaction forces; in this case the model is only valid so long as all reaction forces are positive.

Mark Hennings - 4 years, 8 months ago

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