Which is larger?

Geometry Level 4

Given an equilateral A B C \triangle ABC where E B = 2 C E EB = 2 \cdot CE and A F = F B AF = FB , which circle is larger?

You may want to do the arithmetic before you guess.

Bonus : If the ratio of the radius of the blue circle to the radius of the red circle is a b + c d \dfrac{a\sqrt b+c}d , where a , b , c , d a,b,c,d are positive integers with b b square-free and d d minimized. What is a + b + c + d a+b+c+d ?

Red Blue They are both the same

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5 solutions

Chris Lewis
Oct 7, 2020

For ease of calculation, let the side-length of the equilateral triangle be 6 6 .


The blue circle is the incircle of Δ B E F \Delta BEF . We know two sides and the included angle for this triangle; so it's fully defined. Specifically, we know B E = 4 , F B E = 6 0 , B F = 3 BE=4,\;\;\angle FBE=60^\circ,\;\; BF=3

There are lots of way to work out the inradius; I'll use r s = Δ rs=\Delta , where r r is the inradius, s s is the semi-perimeter and Δ \Delta is the area of the triangle.

To find s s , we need to know E F EF . Using the cosine rule, E F 2 = B E 2 + B F 2 2 B E B F cos F B E = 4 2 + 3 2 2 4 3 1 2 = 13 EF^2=BE^2+BF^2-2BE\cdot BF \cdot \cos \angle FBE = 4^2+3^2-2\cdot 4\cdot 3\cdot \frac12=13

so E F = 13 EF=\sqrt{13} , and s = 1 2 ( 7 + 13 ) s=\frac12 (7+\sqrt{13}) .

The area is Δ = 1 2 B E B F sin F B E = 1 2 4 3 3 2 = 3 3 \Delta=\frac12 BE \cdot BF \sin \angle FBE=\frac12 \cdot 4 \cdot 3 \cdot \frac{\sqrt3}{2}=3\sqrt3

so we find the radius of the blue circle is 6 3 7 + 13 0.98 \blue{\frac{6\sqrt3}{7+\sqrt{13}} \approx 0.98}


We have to treat the red circle differently. Extend the lines F E FE and A C AC to meet at a point P P . The red circle is an excircle of the triangle C E P CEP .

Note that C E P = B E F \angle CEP = \angle BEF , which we know from the previous triangle. We also know E C P = 12 0 \angle ECP = 120^\circ and C E = 2 CE=2 , so now this triangle is fully defined.

Using r , s , Δ r',s',\Delta' for the inradius, semi=perimeter and area of triangle C F P CFP , and R R for the radius of the red circle, we have R = Δ s C E R=\frac{\Delta'}{s'-CE}

This solution is already getting a bit long, and most of this is standard manipulation now, so in summary:

  • by the sine rule in Δ B E F \Delta BEF , we find C E P = B E F = sin 1 3 3 2 13 \angle CEP = \angle BEF=\sin^{-1} \frac{3\sqrt3}{2\sqrt{13}}

  • using the sine rule in Δ C E P \Delta CEP we get Δ = 3 3 \Delta'=3\sqrt3 and s = 4 + 13 s'=4+\sqrt{13}

so the radius of the red circle is 3 3 2 + 13 0.93 \red{\frac{3\sqrt3}{2+\sqrt{13}} \approx 0.93}


Comparing these results, we see the blue circle is larger, but not by much.

The ratio of the radius of the blue circle to the radius of the red circle is 4 + 2 13 7 + 13 = 1 18 ( 1 + 5 13 ) \frac{4+2\sqrt{13}}{7+\sqrt{13}}=\frac{1}{18} (1+5\sqrt{13})

I feel I've missed something obvious - is there an easy way to see that triangles C E P CEP and B E F BEF have the same area?

Chris Lewis - 8 months, 1 week ago

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If you could prove the height of CEP is twice the height of BEF, you can prove that... but how?

Jeff Giff - 8 months, 1 week ago

You can use coordinate geometry to show that P B C F PB || CF and P B F B PB \perp FB .

Then the area of P B F \triangle PBF is A P B F = 1 2 B F P B = A B E F + A P B E A_{\triangle PBF} = \frac{1}{2} \cdot BF \cdot PB = A_{\triangle BEF} + A_{\triangle PBE}

and the area of P B C \triangle PBC is A P B C = 1 2 B F P B = A C E P + A P B E A_{\triangle PBC} = \frac{1}{2} \cdot BF \cdot PB = A_{\triangle CEP} + A_{\triangle PBE}

Therefore, 1 2 B F P B = A B E F + A P B E = A C E P + A P B E \frac{1}{2} \cdot BF \cdot PB = A_{\triangle BEF} + A_{\triangle PBE} = A_{\triangle CEP} + A_{\triangle PBE}

which solves to A B E F = A C E P A_{\triangle BEF} = A_{\triangle CEP} .

David Vreken - 8 months ago

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Very nice - if only I'd bothered to actually draw that point!!

Chris Lewis - 8 months ago

Menelaus' theorem is a convenient way to get P A = 2 P C PA=2PC and from this the fact that [ C E P ] = [ B E F ] [CEP]=[BEF] follows easily. I' m about to post a solution that uses this idea.

Thanos Petropoulos - 8 months ago

Chris, I'm unable to post my solution for reasons I don't understand. I've reported it to Brilliant. I'll provide a quick sketch here. Reflect EF to the other side of the equilateral triangle intersecting AC at D. This forms a tangential kite, FECD, around the red circle. The area and perimeter of the kite are straightforward calculations once you know FE (==FD). Thus the radius of the red circle can be calculated.

While I don't yet see an easy way to show CEP and BEF have the same area, I was surprised to notice FECD has the same area. Interesting ...

Fletcher Mattox - 8 months, 1 week ago

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Chris, I'm unable to post my solution for reasons I don't understand. I've reported it to Brilliant.

Hi Chris, while you might have forwarded your issue to some other staff, a temporary solution for you is to post a solution as a comment, tag me, then I will convert your comment into a solution.

On the other hand, feel free to provide me (here, or in the report section) with some screenshot that shows that you are not able to submit a solution. I might be able to hasten up the process here.

Brilliant Mathematics Staff - 8 months, 1 week ago

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I have solved the posting problem. It turns out that I had deleted my original solution with the intent of rewriting it. Apparently that is not permitted. I get only one chance. I've already outlined my solution in a comment (above), and that is sufficient. Thank you.

Fletcher Mattox - 8 months, 1 week ago

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@Fletcher Mattox Hi Fletcher, you're right. I've "un-deleted" your solution.

And yes, users do not currently have the ability to post another solution after they have deleted their solution.

Brilliant Mathematics Staff - 8 months, 1 week ago

Using a tangential polygon is very, very neat - I hope the issue with posting gets sorted out. I should have wondered why there wasn't a point "D" on the diagram!

Chris Lewis - 8 months ago

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Yeah, point "D" was conspicuous by its absence, huh? I gave up posting my solution here. I am terribly clumsy with LaTeX and became frustrated.

Fletcher Mattox - 8 months ago

Let the side-length of the equilateral triangle be 1 1 . Then we have A F = F B = 1 2 AF=FB=\frac{1}{2} , C E = 1 3 CE=\frac{1}{3} , E B = 2 3 EB=\frac{2}{3} .
By cosine rule on E F B \triangle EFB we get E F 2 = B E 2 + B F 2 2 B E B F cos F B E = ( 2 3 ) 2 + ( 1 2 ) 2 2 2 3 1 2 cos 60 = 13 36 E F = 13 6 E{{F}^{2}}=B{{E}^{2}}+B{{F}^{2}}-2BE\cdot BF\cdot \cos \angle FBE={{\left( \frac{2}{3} \right)}^{2}}+{{\left( \frac{1}{2} \right)}^{2}}-2\cdot \frac{2}{3}\cdot \frac{1}{2}\cdot \cos 60{}^\circ =\frac{13}{36}\Rightarrow EF=\frac{\sqrt{13}}{6}


For the calculation of the radius r r of the blue circle we proceed as follows:

[ E B F ] = r s ( where s is the semiperimeter of E B F ) 1 2 B F B E sin E B F = r 1 2 ( 1 2 + 2 3 + 13 6 ) 1 2 1 2 2 3 sin 60 = r 7 + 13 12 r = 3 7 + 13 \begin{aligned} & \left[ EBF \right]=r\cdot s {\color{#20A900}{\text{ }\left( \text{where }s\text{ is the semiperimeter of }\triangle EBF \right)}} \\ & \Rightarrow \frac{1}{2}\cdot BF\cdot BE\cdot \sin \angle EBF=r\cdot \frac{1}{2}\left( \frac{1}{2}+\frac{2}{3}+\frac{\sqrt{13}}{6} \right) \\ & \Rightarrow \frac{1}{2}\cdot \frac{1}{2}\cdot \frac{2}{3}\cdot \sin 60{}^\circ =r\cdot \frac{7+\sqrt{13}}{12} \\ & \Rightarrow {\color{#3D99F6}{r=\frac{\sqrt{3}}{7+\sqrt{13}}}} \\ \end{aligned}


Now, let’s see two different ways to find the radius R R of the red circle:

1st way (already mentioned by @Fletcher Mattox ) Consider point D D on A C AC , such that A D = 2 D C AD=2\cdot DC . Then, by symmetry D F DF is tangent to the red circle and consequently the kite C E F D CEFD is tangential to the red circle.

Thus, [ C E F D ] = 1 2 ( p e r i m e t e r ) ( i n r a d i u s ) = 1 2 2 ( 1 3 + 13 6 ) R = 2 + 13 6 R ( 1 ) \left[ CEFD \right]=\frac{1}{2}\cdot \left( perimeter \right)\cdot \left( inradius \right)=\frac{1}{2}\cdot 2\cdot \left( \frac{1}{3}+\frac{\sqrt{13}}{6} \right)\cdot R=\frac{2+\sqrt{13}}{6}\cdot R \ \ \ \ \ (1) On the other hand,

[ C E F D ] = 1 2 C F D E = 1 2 3 2 1 3 = 3 12 ( 2 ) \left[ CEFD \right]=\dfrac{1}{2}\cdot CF\cdot DE=\dfrac{1}{2}\cdot \dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{2}\cdot \dfrac{1}{3}=\dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{12} \ \ \ \ \ (2) Combining ( 1 ) (1) and ( 2 ) (2) ,

2 + 13 6 R = 3 12 R = 3 4 + 2 13 \frac{2+\sqrt{13}}{6}\cdot R=\frac{\sqrt{3}}{12}\Leftrightarrow {\color{#D61F06}{R=\frac{\sqrt{3}}{4+2\sqrt{13}}}}

2nd way
Let P P be the intersection of lines A C AC and F E FE . Then, the red circle is an excircle of P C E \triangle PCE . Denoting by s {s}' the semiperimeter of P C E \triangle PCE , we have [ P C E ] = R ( s C E ) ( 3 ) \left[ PCE \right]=R\cdot \left( {s}'-CE \right) \ \ \ \ \ (3) Line P F PF is a transversal of A B C \triangle ABC , hence, by Menelaus’ theorem we have

P A P C F B F A E C E B = 1 P A P C 1 1 2 = 1 P A = 2 P C P C = C A = 1 \dfrac{PA}{PC}\cdot \dfrac{FB}{FA}\cdot \dfrac{EC}{EB}=1\Rightarrow \dfrac{PA}{PC}\cdot 1\cdot \dfrac{1}{2}=1\Rightarrow PA=2\cdot PC\Rightarrow PC=CA=1 Therefore,

[ P C E ] = 1 2 P C C E sin P C E = 1 2 1 1 3 sin 120 = 3 12 \left[ PCE \right]=\dfrac{1}{2}\cdot PC\cdot CE\cdot \sin \angle PCE=\dfrac{1}{2}\cdot 1\cdot \dfrac{1}{3}\cdot \sin 120{}^\circ =\dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{12} By cosine rule on P C E \triangle PCE we have

P E 2 = C E 2 + P C 2 2 C E P C cos P C E = ( 1 3 ) 2 + 1 2 2 1 3 cos 120 = 13 9 P{{E}^{2}}=C{{E}^{2}}+P{{C}^{2}}-2\cdot CE\cdot PC\cdot \cos \angle PCE={{\left( \dfrac{1}{3} \right)}^{2}}+{{1}^{2}}-2\cdot \dfrac{1}{3}\cdot \cos 120{}^\circ =\dfrac{13}{9} Hence, P E = 13 3 PE=\dfrac{\sqrt{13}}{3} and s C E = 1 2 ( 1 + 1 3 + 13 3 ) 1 3 = 2 + 13 6 {s}'-CE=\dfrac{1}{2}\cdot \left( 1+\dfrac{1}{3}+\dfrac{\sqrt{13}}{3} \right)-\dfrac{1}{3}=\dfrac{2+\sqrt{13}}{6} .

Substituting in ( 3 ) (3) we get 3 12 = R 2 + 13 6 R = 3 4 + 2 13 \dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{12}=R\cdot \dfrac{2+\sqrt{13}}{6}\Rightarrow {\color{#D61F06}{R=\dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{4+2\sqrt{13}}}}


To conclude, since r = 3 7 + 13 0.1633 {\color{#3D99F6}{r=\dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{7+\sqrt{13}}}\approx 0.1633} and R = 3 4 + 2 13 0.1545 {\color{#D61F06}{R=\dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{4+2\sqrt{13}}}\approx 0.1545} , the b l u e \boxed{blue} circle is larger.

Bonus: The ratio of the radius of the blue circle to the radius of the red circle is

3 7 + 13 3 4 + 2 13 = 4 + 2 13 7 + 13 = ( 4 + 2 13 ) ( 7 13 ) ( 7 + 13 ) ( 7 13 ) = 10 13 + 2 36 = 5 13 + 1 18 \dfrac{\frac{\sqrt{3}}{7+\sqrt{13}}}{\frac{\sqrt{3}}{4+2\sqrt{13}}}=\dfrac{4+2\sqrt{13}}{7+\sqrt{13}}=\dfrac{\left( 4+2\sqrt{13} \right)\cdot \left( 7-\sqrt{13} \right)}{\left( 7+\sqrt{13} \right)\cdot \left( 7-\sqrt{13} \right)}=\dfrac{10\sqrt{13}+2}{36}=\dfrac{5\sqrt{13}+1}{18} .
Thus, a + b + c + d = 5 + 13 + 1 + 18 = 37 a+b+c+d=5+13+1+18=\boxed{37} .

Wow. Nice work. And thank you for making my solution real!

Fletcher Mattox - 8 months ago

Thanks! It is a nice problem, as usual. Keep surprising us with your ingenuity in finding circles that are almost congruent.

Thanos Petropoulos - 8 months ago

Let the side length of equilateral A B C \triangle ABC be 1 1 . Then E B = 2 3 EB=\frac 23 and F B = 1 2 FB=\frac 12 . Let F F be the origin ( 0 , 0 ) (0,0) of the x y xy -plane, then the coordinates of E E are ( 1 6 , 1 3 ) \left(\frac 16, \frac 1{\sqrt 3}\right) . And E F = 1 36 + 1 3 = 13 6 EF = \sqrt{\frac 1{36}+\frac 13} = \frac {\sqrt{13}}6 .

Let the radius of the blue circle be r 1 r_1 . Since it is the inradius of E F B \triangle EFB , then the area of the E F B \triangle EFB is given by:

[ E F B ] = ( E B + F B + E F ) r 1 2 1 2 E B F E sin 6 0 = ( E B + F B + E F ) r 1 2 E B F E sin 6 0 = ( E B + F B + E F ) r 1 r 1 = 2 3 1 2 3 2 2 3 + 1 2 + 13 6 = 3 7 + 13 0.1633 \begin{aligned} [EFB] & = \frac {(EB+FB+EF)r_1}2 \\ \frac 12 \cdot EB \cdot FE \cdot \sin 60^\circ & = \frac {(EB+FB+EF)r_1}2 \\ EB \cdot FE \cdot \sin 60^\circ & = (EB+FB+EF)r_1 \\ \implies r_1 & = \frac {\frac 23 \cdot \frac 12 \cdot \frac {\sqrt 3}2}{\frac 23+\frac 12+\frac {\sqrt{13}}6} =\frac {\sqrt 3}{7+\sqrt{13}} \approx 0.1633 \end{aligned}

Let the center of the red circle be O O . We note that O O lie on A F AF or the y y -axis. Let O O be ( 0 , h ) (0,h) , the radius of the red circle be r 2 r_2 , and C F E = θ \angle CFE = \theta . Then we note that r 2 = h sin θ r_2 = h \sin \theta and r 2 = ( 3 2 h ) sin 3 0 = 1 2 ( 3 2 h ) h = 3 2 2 r 2 r_2 = \left(\frac {\sqrt 3}2-h\right)\sin 30^\circ = \frac 12 \left(\frac {\sqrt 3}2-h\right) \implies h = \frac {\sqrt 3}2-2r_2 . Then we have:

r 2 = ( 3 2 2 r 2 ) sin θ Note that tan θ = 3 6 = 3 4 r 2 2 13 sin θ = 1 13 r 2 = 3 4 + 2 13 0.1545 \begin{aligned} r_2 & = \left(\frac {\sqrt 3}2-2r_2\right)\blue{\sin \theta} & \small \blue{\text{Note that }\tan \theta = \frac {\sqrt 3}6} \\ & = \frac {\sqrt 3-4r_2}{2\blue{\sqrt {13}}} & \small \blue{\implies \sin \theta = \frac 1{\sqrt{13}}} \\ \implies r_2 & = \frac {\sqrt 3}{4+2\sqrt{13}} \approx 0.1545 \end{aligned}

Therefore r 1 > r 2 r_1 > r_2 ; the blue circle is larger.

Bonus :

r 1 r 2 = 4 + 2 13 7 + 13 = ( 4 + 2 13 ) ( 7 13 ) ( 7 + 13 ) ( 7 13 ) = 2 + 10 13 36 = 1 + 5 13 18 \frac {r_1}{r_2} = \frac {4+2\sqrt{13}}{7+\sqrt{13}} = \frac {(4+2\sqrt{13})(7-\sqrt{13})}{(7+\sqrt{13})(7-\sqrt{13})} = \frac {2+10\sqrt{13}}{36} = \frac {1+5\sqrt{13}}{18}

Secret User
Oct 15, 2020

Lets look at the red circle first. If line CE is less than AF, and the red circle is closer to line CE, then the diameter of the red circle is less than half of the length of one side of the triangle.

Because line FB is half the length of one of the sides of the circle, and the blue circle is near line FB; the length of the diameter of the blue circle is exaxtly half of the length of the equalateral triangle.

We know the length of a circle's diameter can deterime the length of the entire circle because the radius of the circle is 1 2 \frac{1}{2} diameter, and the area of a circle is π ⋅ radius squared, which means the diameter of the circle can also determine the area.

Obviously, half is greater than less than half (assuming we're revering to the length of one side of the equalateral triangle, where the length never changes), so the blue circle is greater than the red circle.

The blue diameter is not exactly half of the equilateral triangle side. If the side is 1, then the blue diameter is 2 3 3 + 7 0.327 \dfrac{2\sqrt{3}}{3+\sqrt{7}} \approx 0.327 .

Fletcher Mattox - 7 months, 4 weeks ago

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My point was: that based on the line information, the blue diameter was bigger than the red. That I was correct on.

Although I didn't actually take the time to solve using algebra and arithmetic, I still used basic logic to get a general idea of the areas.

Secret User - 7 months, 4 weeks ago

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Yes, you got the right answer, but if you base that answer on

"the length of the diameter of the blue circle is exaxtly half of the length of the equalateral triangle."

then your logic is flawed.

Fletcher Mattox - 7 months, 4 weeks ago

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