Who needs classical inequalities?

Algebra Level 1

A A and B B are two distinct positive numbers such that their average is equal to C . C.

Is it possible for the average of A 2 A^2 and B 2 B^2 to be C 2 ? C^2?

Yes, it is possible No, it is not possible

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12 solutions

Blan Morrison
Oct 15, 2018

Assuming arithmetic mean... A + B 2 = C \frac{A+B}{2}=C C 2 = A 2 + 2 A B + B 2 4 \implies C^2=\frac{A^2+2AB+B^2}{4} A 2 + B 2 2 = A 2 + 2 A B + B 2 4 \frac{A^2+B^2}{2}=\frac{A^2+2AB+B^2}{4} 2 A 2 + 2 B 2 = A 2 + 2 A B + B 2 \implies 2A^2+2B^2=A^2+2AB+B^2 0 = A 2 + 2 A B B 2 \implies 0=-A^2+2AB-B^2 0 = ( A 2 2 A B + B 2 ) \implies 0=-(A^2-2AB+B^2) 0 = ( A B ) 2 \implies 0=(A-B)^2

However, A A and B B are distinct. Therefore, their difference can not be 0 and the situation is impossible. β ~\beta_{\lceil \mid \rceil}

Duh - I had all of the equations correct - but I missed the word 'distinct'. My conclusion was "Yes it is possible provided that A = B = C". So I don't think I have it WRONG :p

Carlo Wood - 2 years, 7 months ago

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Yes me too. Distinct to me doesn't necessarily mean different.

Michael McLaughlin - 2 years, 7 months ago

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In mathematics, "distinct" always means different.

Jason Dyer Staff - 2 years, 7 months ago

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@Jason Dyer I was thinking of it as, say, two distinct coins. They may have the same value.

Michael McLaughlin - 2 years, 7 months ago

Just to help people out, I used our new glossary feature to add a definition to the word "distinct" (you can mouse-hover over the word to see it, or push it on the app).

Jason Dyer Staff - 2 years, 7 months ago

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@Jason Dyer OK. Thanks.

Michael McLaughlin - 2 years, 7 months ago

Could someone tell me why (A^2 + B^2)/2 =(A^2+2AB +B^2)/4, please? I would be really grateful.

thu anh - 2 years, 7 months ago

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It doesn't. C 2 = A 2 + 2 A B + B 2 4 C^2=\frac{A^2+2AB+B^2}{4} . The problem is asking us if the average of A 2 A^2 and B 2 B^2 ( A 2 + B 2 2 ) \left(\frac{A^2+B^2}{2}\right) is ever equal to C 2 C^2 . I just substituted A 2 + 2 A B + B 2 4 \frac{A^2+2AB+B^2}{4} in for C 2 C^2 .

Blan Morrison - 2 years, 7 months ago

Third line is incorrect. Should not be divided by 2

Jon Bushman - 2 years, 7 months ago

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The formula for the average of a pair of numbers is indeed (A+B)/2. I'm otherwise not sure what you're referring to?

Jason Dyer Staff - 2 years, 7 months ago

So, you don't need the information that the numbers are positive.

Tom Verhoeff - 2 years, 7 months ago

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Correct. They don't even have to be integers.

Blan Morrison - 2 years, 7 months ago

but for 1 is correct

Bhaki- O Pynkhlong Pynkhlong - 2 years, 3 months ago
Peter Macgregor
Nov 5, 2018

We are trying to find a solution to

A 2 + B 2 = 2 C 2 A + B = 2 C A^2+B^2=2C^2 \\ A+B=2C

Dividing the equations by C 2 C^2 and C C respectively, we see this is equivalent to solving

α 2 + β 2 = 2 α + β = 2 \alpha^2+\beta^2=2 \\ \alpha+\beta=2

In the alpha-beta plane this amounts to the intersection of a circle with a line. This can have at most two solutions, and it is easy to confirm with a quick sketch that in fact the line is a tangent to the circle and there is one (repeated) solution at (1,1).

Tracing the argument backwards we see that this solution results in A = B.

Since the problem stipulated that A and B were distinct positive real numbers, we see that no such solutions exist to the problem.

Moderator note:

A picture to help illustrate:

Very creative solution! I never would've thought that analytical geometry could solve this problem as well!

Blan Morrison - 2 years, 7 months ago

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This. I never considered my question to have any geometrical significance here. I'm glad to be proven wrong.

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 7 months ago

My first reaction was too naive, thinking that 3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2, rubbish!

Literally, it is readily, the root mean squard C is always between A and B, if A, B > 0 and A ≠ B.

Malcom Wu - 2 years, 7 months ago

It's interesting!

nay Song - 2 years, 7 months ago

thanks to the moderator for the diagram.

btw Could you suggest a good (preferably free) package to create pictures like this to paste into Brilliant?

Peter Macgregor - 2 years, 7 months ago

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At Brilliant, we have a Mathematica license (which I used for this image) although you can get the same images via just Wolfram Alpha. (You can screenshot via whatever method you use, clip into a PNG file, and upload that. SVG as I put up here requires an actual license, but that's not necessary.)

Desmos also would likely make a fine looking graph for the purposes of this problem.

Jason Dyer Staff - 2 years, 7 months ago

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thanks Jason, I'll try this next time.

Peter Macgregor - 2 years, 6 months ago

Brilliant! =)

Ivan L - 2 years, 6 months ago
Chew-Seong Cheong
Oct 15, 2018

Relevant wiki: Cauchy-Schwarz Inequality

The average of A A and B B is given by C = A + B 2 C=\dfrac {A+B}2 . The average A 2 A^2 and B 2 B^2 is A 2 + B 2 2 \dfrac {A^2+B^2}2 . If A 2 + B 2 2 = C 2 \dfrac {A^2+B^2}2 = C^2 , then

A 2 + B 2 2 = ( A + B 2 ) 2 ( A + B ) 2 = 2 ( A 2 + B 2 ) \begin{aligned} \frac {A^2+B^2}2 & = \left(\frac {A+B}2\right)^2 \\ \implies (A+B)^2 & = 2 (A^2+B^2) \end{aligned}

By Cauchy-Schwarz inequality, we have ( A + B ) 2 2 ( A 2 + B 2 ) (A+B)^2 \le 2 (A^2+B^2) for all positive A A and B B and equality occurs when A = B A=B . Since A A and B B are distinct, equality cannot occur. No, it is not possible ,

Rocco Dalto
Nov 5, 2018

Assume it's possible.

A + B 2 = C A 2 + B 2 2 = ( A + B 2 ) 2 2 A 2 + 2 B 2 = A 2 + 2 A B + B 2 ( A B ) 2 = 0 A = B \dfrac{A + B}{2} = C \implies \dfrac{A^2 + B^2}{2} = (\dfrac{A + B}{2})^2 \implies 2A^2 + 2B^2 = A^2 + 2AB + B^2 \implies (A - B)^2 = 0 \implies A = B .

Since A A and B B are given as distinct positive numbers \implies it's not possible.

Let x x be a real number such that A = C + x A = C + x and B = C x B = C - x . This ensures A + B 2 = C \dfrac{A + B} {2} = C . But: A 2 + B 2 2 = ( C + x ) 2 + ( C x ) 2 2 = C 2 + 2 C x + x 2 + C 2 2 C x + x 2 2 = C 2 + x 2 = C 2 x = 0 \dfrac{A^2 + B^2}{2} = \dfrac{(C + x)^2 +(C-x) ^2}{2} =\dfrac{C^2 + 2Cx + x^2 + C^2 - 2Cx + x^2}{2} = C^2 + x^2 = C^2 \Rightarrow \boxed{x = 0}

This implies that A = B = C A = B = C which is contradictional, as A A and B B must be distinct positive numbers.

Oh wow. This is a pleasantly surprising approach, I have never seen anything like this before!

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 7 months ago
Jeffrey H.
Nov 8, 2018

Note that A + B 2 = C \frac{A+B}{2}=C ( A + B ) 2 4 = C 2 \frac{(A+B)^2}{4}=C^2 A 2 + B 2 + 2 A B 4 = C 2 \frac{A^2+B^2+2AB}{4}=C^2 A 2 + B 2 + 2 A B = 4 C 2 A^2+B^2+2AB=4C^2 If A 2 + B 2 2 = C 2 \frac{A^2+B^2}{2}=C^2 , then A 2 + B 2 = 2 C 2 A^2+B^2=2C^2 , and we have A 2 + B 2 + 2 A B = 4 C 2 A^2+B^2+2AB=4C^2 2 C 2 + 2 A B = 4 C 2 2C^2+2AB=4C^2 2 C 2 + 2 A B = 4 C 2 2C^2+2AB=4C^2 2 A B = 2 C 2 2AB=2C^2 A B = C 2 AB=C^2 We know that A B AB is always positive, as a positive number times a positive number is positive. C 2 C^2 is also always positive, as the average of two positive numbers must be positive. This means that we can square root both sides. Doing so gives A B = C \sqrt{AB}=C . By AM-GM, A B A + B 2 = C \sqrt{AB}\le\frac{A+B}{2}=C . Equality is achieved when A = B A=B , but we are given that A A and B B are distinct, so this is impossible.

San Seng
Nov 6, 2018

This is only possible when the arithmatic and geometric mean are same, which is true only for two identical numbers. But the constraint is that they are distinct, hence imposible.

We have: { a + b = 2 c a 2 + b 2 = 2 c 2 \begin{cases} a + b = 2c \\ a^2 + b^2= 2c^2 \end{cases}

\Leftrightarrow { a 2 + 2 a b + b 2 = 4 c 2 a 2 + b 2 = 2 c 2 \begin{cases} a^2 + 2ab + b^2 = 4c^2 \\ a^2 + b^2= 2c^2 \end{cases}

\Leftrightarrow { a + b = 2 c 2 a b = 2 c 2 \begin{cases} a + b = 2c \\ 2ab = 2c^2 \end{cases}

\Leftrightarrow { a + b 2 = c a b = c \begin{cases} \frac{a+b}{2} = c \\ \sqrt{ab} = c \end{cases}

or a + b 2 = a b \frac{a+b}{2} = \sqrt{ab}

According to the Cauchy theorem, this happens if and only if a = b, which contradict the statement. So the answer is No, it's not possible for the average of a 2 a^2 and b 2 b^2 to equals to c 2 c^2 .

Chan Lye Lee
Nov 4, 2018

Note that A 2 + B 2 2 ( A + B 2 ) 2 = C 2 \displaystyle \frac{A^2+B^2}{2} \ge \left(\frac{A+B}{2}\right)^2 =C^2 with the equality holds if and only if A = B A=B . Since A B A \neq B , A 2 + B 2 2 > C 2 \displaystyle \frac{A^2+B^2}{2} > C^2 , which means that the average of A 2 A^2 and B 2 B^2 is always greater than C 2 C^2 .

Can you prove that first inequality?

Blan Morrison - 2 years, 7 months ago

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We know from AM-GM inequality that A 2 + B 2 2 A B A^2+B^2 \ge 2AB , and this tell us that 2 ( A 2 + B 2 ) A 2 + B 2 + 2 A B = ( A + B ) 2 2\left(A^2+B^2\right) \ge A^2+B^2+2AB =\left(A+B\right)^2 . Now divide both sides by 4, we proved the inequality.

Chan Lye Lee - 2 years, 7 months ago
Kostya Moiseev
Nov 9, 2018

Quadratic function is convex, therefore, for two differences positive numbers square of the average will be always less than average of squares

For A=8,B=7andC=7.5 A+B/2=7.5 But A^2+B^2/2 is not equal to C^2 I.E,88.5 is not equal to 56.25

Ervyn Manuyag
Nov 10, 2018

No bcuz I tried 2 different numbers and it didn’t work

That's not the right way to solve this. I'm asking whether it is possible to find a pair positive numbers ( A , B ) (A,B) that satisfies this. What you have done is that you have only a pair (or two?) of positive numbers, maybe there is a pair that you did not know of that satisfies this?

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 7 months ago

The relationship is possible when A = B = C =1

Emil Kane - 2 years ago

You're wrong it is possible! Take an Isosceles triangle; the square on the hypotenuse 'C' is equal to the square of the other two sides 'A&B' Say; A = 2² + B =2² = 8 and the √8 = 2.828427 So; very simply: A + B = C! N'est ce pas?

Julian Heath - 1 year, 12 months ago

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