You Derive Me Crazyyyyyyy

Calculus Level 4

What is the third derivative of x x x \large x^{x^x} at x = 1 ? x=1?


The answer is 9.

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4 solutions

Pi Han Goh
Mar 13, 2014

We first find the derivatives of x x x^x , let g ( x ) = x x g(x) = x^x then

ln ( g ( x ) ) = x ln x g ( x ) g ( x ) = ln x + 1 g ( x ) = x x ( ln x + 1 ) \ln (g(x)) = x \ln x \Rightarrow \frac {g'(x) }{g(x) } = \ln x + 1 \Rightarrow g'(x) = x^x (\ln x + 1)

Now let f ( x ) = x x x f(x) = x^{x^x} , take the log to both sides of the equation and differentiate them

ln ( f ( x ) ) = x x ln x f ( x ) f ( x ) = x x 1 x + ln x ( x x ( ln x + 1 ) ) = x x ( 1 x + ( ln x ) 2 + ln x ) \begin{aligned} \ln (f(x)) & = & x^x \cdot \ln x \\ \frac {f'(x)}{f(x)} & = & x^x \cdot \frac {1}{x} + \ln x \cdot \left ( x^x ( \ln x + 1) \right ) \\ & = & x^x \left ( \frac {1}{x} + (\ln x)^2 + \ln x \right ) \\ \end{aligned}

Set x = 1 x = 1 , we get f ( 1 ) = 1 f'(1) = 1 , now differentiate the equation once more

f ( x ) f ( x ) ( f ( x ) ) 2 ( f ( x ) ) 2 \LARGE \frac { f(x) f''(x) - (f'(x))^2 }{(f(x))^2}

= x x ( 1 x 2 + 2 ln x x + 1 x ) \large = x^x \left (-\frac {1}{x^2} + \frac {2 \ln x }{x} + \frac {1}{x} \right )

+ ( 1 x + ( ln x ) 2 + ln x ) x x ( ln x + 1 ) \large \space \space \space + \left ( \frac {1}{x} + (\ln x)^2 + \ln x \right ) \cdot x^x ( \ln x + 1)

= x x ( 1 x 2 + 3 ln x x + 2 x + ( ln x ) 3 + 2 ( ln x ) 2 + ln x ) = x^x \left ( -\frac {1}{x^2} + \frac {3 \ln x }{x} + \frac {2}{x} + (\ln x)^3 + 2 (\ln x)^2 + \ln x \right )

Set x = 1 x = 1 , we get f ( 1 ) = 2 f''(1) = 2 , now differentiate the equation one last time

f ( x ) ( f ( x ) f ( x ) f ( x ) f ( x ) ) 2 f ( x ) ( f ( x ) f ( x ) ( f ( x ) ) 2 ) ( f ( x ) ) 3 \LARGE \frac { f(x) \cdot \left ( f(x) f'''(x) - f'(x) f''(x) \right ) - 2f'(x) \cdot \left ( f(x) f''(x) - (f'(x))^2 \right ) }{(f(x))^3}

= x x ( 2 x 3 + 3 3 ln x x 2 2 x 2 + 3 ( ln x ) 2 x + 4 ln x x + 1 x ) \large = x^x \left ( \frac {2}{x^3} + \frac {3 - 3\ln x}{x^2} - \frac {2}{x^2} + \frac {3 (\ln x)^2}{x} + \frac {4 \ln x}{x} + \frac {1}{x} \right)

+ ( 1 x 2 + 3 ln x x + 2 x + ( ln x ) 3 + 2 ( ln x ) 2 + ln x ) x x ( ln x + 1 ) \large \space \space \space + \left ( -\frac {1}{x^2} + \frac {3 \ln x }{x} + \frac {2}{x} + (\ln x)^3 + 2 (\ln x)^2 + \ln x \right ) \cdot x^x ( \ln x + 1)

Set x = 1 x = 1 , simplify everything, we get f ( 1 ) = 9 f'''(1) = \boxed{9}

This was the hardest derivative problem I've ever encountered. Good thing it wasn't the fourth derivative of x^x^x^x at x = 1.

Steven Zheng - 6 years, 10 months ago

TOO LONG

Varun Iyer - 7 years, 2 months ago

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I don't know if this is a shorter way to do it, but it's an alternative you might try: First show that, if F ( x ) = x g ( x ) F(x)=x^{g(x)} , where g ( x ) g(x) is a smooth function with g ( 1 ) = 1 g(1)=1 , then F ( 1 ) = 3 g ( 1 ) + 3 g ( 1 ) F'''(1)=3g(1)+3g'(1) . After I established that, the rest was fairly straightforward.

Peter Byers - 7 years, 2 months ago

hmmmm tricky question

Imran Ansari - 7 years, 2 months ago

great i did the same way..........

Saurav Sharma - 7 years, 1 month ago

I haven't learnt this topic :|

Lee Ling Yan - 7 years, 2 months ago

really cool..i was on the correct path.....

manish bhargao - 7 years, 2 months ago

Sorry, but you should have used parentheses. I think most of us (or some) had difficulty figuring out the relationship between the three x's.

Carlo Tac-an - 7 years, 2 months ago

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Actually, there's only one way to read x x x x^{x^x} ... since ( x x ) x = x 2 x (x^x)^x=x^{2x} , so it wouldn't make sense to write it as x x x x^{x^x} ... ;-)

PS And, really, if you hover over the thing, it specifically says " x^{x^x} "... ^^

C . - 2 years, 9 months ago

I had a calculator do this job for me, and yes, the answer was correct

Rocky Wang - 1 year, 10 months ago

It's too easy to make a mistake.

Ivan smith - 1 year, 2 months ago

f"(1) is no equal to 2 coz 1(-1+0+2+0+0+0)=1

Dhanya Jose - 6 years, 1 month ago

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Nope. Check your calculation again.

Pi Han Goh - 6 years, 1 month ago

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can u substitute and show me that ur ans is correct plz i got the same derivative but the answer i get after substitution is different i with this problem for about 2 hr plz help me

Dhanya Jose - 6 years, 1 month ago

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@Dhanya Jose f ( x ) f ( x ) ( f ( x ) ) 2 ( f ( x ) ) 2 = x x ( 1 x 2 + 3 ln x x + 2 x + ( ln x ) 3 + 2 ( ln x ) 2 + ln x ) \frac { f(x) f''(x) - (f'(x))^2 }{(f(x))^2} = x^x \left ( -\frac {1}{x^2} + \frac {3 \ln x }{x} + \frac {2}{x} + (\ln x)^3 + 2 (\ln x)^2 + \ln x \right )

Substitute x = 1 x=1

Pi Han Goh - 6 years, 1 month ago

Yes, Dhanya, the second part of the equation is indeed =1, but the LHS is 1 × f ( 1 ) 1 2 1 2 \frac{1\times f''(1)-1^2}{1^2} . :-B

C . - 2 years, 9 months ago

f"(1)=1 and not 2

Dhanya Jose - 6 years, 1 month ago
Otto Bretscher
Mar 15, 2015

To avoid "differentiation overload" , let's use Taylor series to do this problem! To simplify the exposition, we will find the Taylor series of f ( x ) = ( x + 1 ) ( x + 1 ) x + 1 f(x)=(x+1)^{(x+1)^{x+1}} based at 0 rather than the Taylor series of g ( x ) = x x x g(x)=x^{x^x} based at 1. Note that f ( 0 ) = g ( 1 ) f'''(0)=g'''(1) is the answer we seek. My solution requires a few steps, but they involve only the algebra of cubic polynomials. At each stage, we will write the Taylor series based at 0 up to the x 3 x^3 -term. We start with the known Taylor series ln ( x + 1 ) = x x 2 2 + x 3 3 + . . . \ln(x+1) = x - \frac{x^2}{2} + \frac{x^3}{3}+... . Next p ( x ) = ( x + 1 ) ln ( x + 1 ) = x + x 2 2 x 3 6 + . . . p(x)=(x+1)\ln(x+1)=x+\frac{x^2}{2}-\frac{x^3}{6}+... . Now we exponentiate and use the known Taylor series e y = 1 + y + y 2 2 + y 3 6 + . . . e^y=1+y+\frac{y^2}{2}+\frac{y^3}{6}+... to find ( x + 1 ) x + 1 = e p ( x ) = 1 + x + x 2 2 + x 3 2 + . . . (x+1)^{x+1}=e^{p(x)}=1+x+\frac{x^2}{2}+\frac{x^3}{2}+... . Finally, we have q ( x ) = ( ln ( x + 1 ) ) ( x + 1 ) x + 1 = x + x 2 2 + 5 x 3 6 + . . . q(x)=(\ln(x+1))(x+1)^{x+1}=x+\frac{x^2}{2}+\frac{5x^3}{6}+... and f ( x ) = ( x + 1 ) ( x + 1 ) x + 1 = e q ( x ) = 1 + x + x 2 + 3 x 3 2 + . . . f(x)=(x+1)^{(x+1)^{x+1}}=e^{q(x)}=1+x+x^2+\frac{3x^3}{2}+... . Our answer f ( 0 ) f'''(0) is the coefficient of x 3 x^3 multiplied with 3!, which is f ( 0 ) = g ( 1 ) = 9 f'''(0)=g'''(1)=9 .

Hmmmm I'm curious: If we want to find the n th n^\text{th} derivative of n x ^n x at x = 1 x=1 , would it be better to use your method or mine when n n gets larger?

Pi Han Goh - 6 years, 1 month ago

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Why don't we start with the third derivative of n x ^nx at x = 1 x=1 ... make it into a Brilliant problem, and we will see which method works best ;)

Otto Bretscher - 6 years, 1 month ago

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Okay. This question have n = 3 n=3 . What do you want me set? n = 5 n = 5 ? n = 7 n=7 ? n = 10 n=10 ? Or just post as a note?

Pi Han Goh - 6 years, 1 month ago

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@Pi Han Goh 3rd derivative of n x ^nx for arbitrary n is fine with me.... my solution will be very brief ;)

Otto Bretscher - 6 years, 1 month ago

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@Otto Bretscher I said the n th n^\text{th} derivative for n x ^n x , and not strictly 3rd derivative. From your last sentence, I got a feeling you have another trick up your sleeve.

Pi Han Goh - 6 years, 1 month ago

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@Pi Han Goh it's not a trick...just more of the same... Taylor polynomials! can we start with the 3rd derivative and then move on? I sense that the nth derivative will be very messy with any technique...

Otto Bretscher - 6 years, 1 month ago

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@Otto Bretscher Oh just the 3rd derivative? Then yours is definitely far superior than mine cause I need to find the second derivative of all m x ^m x for m = 2 , 3 , 4 , , n 1 m=2,3,4,\ldots ,n-1 which is definitely very tedious.

"I sense that the nth derivative will be very messy with any technique..." hence my initial question.

Lemme wear my thinking cap to devise another masterplan.

Pi Han Goh - 6 years, 1 month ago

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@Pi Han Goh This will "derive you crazyyyy....yy"... it's tedious enough to find the nth derivative of x x x^x at x = 1 x=1 .

Are you still going to pose the problem of finding the 3rd derivative of n x ^nx at x=1 for general n (or some specific high value of n)? I wonder whether there are any good solutions besides Taylor Polynomials.

Otto Bretscher - 6 years, 1 month ago

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@Otto Bretscher Nahh, I doubt I'm posting another unless I come up with some ingenious method. I still got one post that goes unanswered .

Pi Han Goh - 6 years, 1 month ago

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@Pi Han Goh That is a great problem to contemplate during a long flight ;)

Otto Bretscher - 6 years, 1 month ago

@Otto Bretscher Oh and by the way, you should definitely post some questions. All your solutions are very creatively written. I'm sure that the problems you create will be just as fun to solve too!

Pi Han Goh - 6 years, 1 month ago
Nimisha Soni
May 15, 2014

The answer is 9

f ( x ) = x x x f ( x ) = x x x + 3 x + 3 log 6 x + x x x ( 3 x 3 x + 3 + 3 x 2 x + 3 ) log 5 x + x x x ( 9 x 2 x + 3 + x x + 3 + x 3 x ( 3 x 3 + 3 x 2 ) ) log 4 x + x x x ( 3 x x + 3 + x 2 x ( 9 x 3 + 12 x 2 ) + x 3 x ( x 3 + 6 x 2 ) ) log 3 x + x x x ( x 2 x ( 3 x 3 + 21 x 2 3 x ) + x x ( 3 x 3 + 6 x 2 ) + x 3 x ( 3 x 2 + 3 x ) ) log 2 x + x x x ( 3 x 3 x + 1 + x x ( x 3 + 9 x 2 4 x ) + x 2 x ( 9 x 2 + 6 x ) ) log x + x x x ( x 3 x + x x ( 3 x 2 + 2 ) + x 2 x ( 6 x 3 ) ) x 3 f ( 1 ) = 9 f(x)={ x }^{ { x }^{ x } }\\ \\ f~ '''(x)=\frac { { { x^{ x^{ x }+3\, x+3 }\, \log ^{ 6 }x+x^{ x^{ x } }\, \left( 3\, x^{ 3\, x+3 }+3\, x^{ 2\, x+3 } \right) \, \log ^{ 5 }x+x^{ x^{ x } }\, \left( 9\, x^{ 2\, x+3 }+x^{ x+3 }+x^{ 3\, x }\, \left( 3\, x^{ 3 }+3\, x^{ 2 } \right) \right) \, \log ^{ 4 }x+x^{ x^{ x } }\, \left( 3\, x^{ x+3 }+x^{ 2\, x }\, \left( 9\, x^{ 3 }+12\, x^{ 2 } \right) +x^{ 3\, x }\, \left( x^{ 3 }+6\, x^{ 2 } \right) \right) \, \log ^{ 3 }x+x^{ x^{ x } }\, \left( x^{ 2\, x }\, \left( 3\, x^{ 3 }+21\, x^{ 2 }-3\, x \right) +x^{ x }\, \left( 3\, x^{ 3 }+6\, x^{ 2 } \right) +x^{ 3\, x }\, \left( 3\, x^{ 2 }+3\, x \right) \right) \, \log ^{ 2 }x+x^{ x^{ x } }\, \left( 3\, x^{ 3\, x+1 }+x^{ x }\, \left( x^{ 3 }+9\, x^{ 2 }-4\, x \right) +x^{ 2\, x }\, \left( 9\, x^{ 2 }+6\, x \right) \right) \, \log x+x^{ x^{ x } }\, \left( x^{ 3\, x }+x^{ x }\, \left( 3\, x^{ 2 }+2 \right) +x^{ 2\, x }\, \left( 6\, x-3 \right) \right) } } }{ { x }^{ 3 } } \\ \\ f~ '''\left( 1 \right) =9

one of the easier but lengthy questions

Avnish Kanungo - 6 years, 10 months ago

I wonder how you got this? Using chain rule repeatedly?

Rick Zhou - 3 years, 9 months ago

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Probably; I think so :|

Syed Hamza Khalid - 2 years, 8 months ago
Gautam Shenoy
Mar 27, 2014

Here is a sketch:

Part 1:

Let f = x x f=x^x . Then take log on both sides, and compute f'(1)=1 and f''(1)=2. For instance f f = 1 + ln ( x ) \frac{f'}{f} = 1 + \ln(x) . Then f'(1) = 1. Differentiate both sides again to get an expression in terms of f''. Again substitute x=1 to get f''(1). Note that you don't need the third derivative of f.

Part 2:

Now let y = x f ( x ) y = x^{f(x)} . Do not substitute for f. Instead treat it as an implicit function. For instance y y = f x + f ln ( x ) \frac{y'}{y} = \frac{f}{x} + f'\ln(x) . Now by differentiating LHS and RHS again, you get an expression in terms of y'', y', y, f, f', f''. Do it again to get an expression in terms of y'''. (You don't need f''' because the term you will get is f ln ( x ) f'''\ln(x) which is 0 at x=1.) Thus you will get y'(1) = 1, y''(1) = 2 and finally, y'''(1) = 9. QED.

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